This is really just a rant on my part, but I really wanted to post it, here, in plain view.

Being accepted as a woman (or any other part of the spectrum) is difficult enough on its own. I mean, there are so many people out there who will try to invalidate you. We all know and see this, of course, and it isn't anything surprising -- neither is the reality that some people will be awesome about it, and some people just require educating.

And then there is character bias. It's when a transgender person's level of acceptance is predicated on how likable they are. If you are a kind, charming, helpful, beautiful, more passable, or just plain "normal" person, your chances of being accepted (especially by people in the gray area) are much better. If you are aloof, arrogant, crass, unkind, unusual, awkward, unattractive, not passing, some combination thereof, or someone is simply displeased with you for whatever reason, you are more likely to be rejected and your gender identity is more likely to be criticized.

Great examples:
1. MtF inmates who are invalidated because of their crimes.
2. Unpopular people who are mocked in their social circles.
3. MtFs who like women or FtMs who like men.
4. A co-worker who doesn't like the way you work.
5. A bipolar or borderline family member who attacks or ignores your gender during an erratic episode.*

[* I am not trying to pick on anyone with a personality disorder or say that all people with that disorder are guilty of similar behavior. Rather, I am trying to illustrate how someone could abuse gender identity as an attack tool based solely on their mood.]

I just find it all so awful. Men can be terrible people and make mistakes. Women can be terrible people and make mistakes. The same goes for men/woman with all of the qualities above, several of which are completely innocent, and many more. Does anyone question their gender? No, of course not. They question their character.

Heck, even I'm guilty of it: I once tried to befriend someone who identified as a trans woman, and I was eventually held captive and molested. I find myself unable to refer to this person as a woman, even though I know that gender and being a horrible person are not correlated.

I just don't know. More than most things, it truly bothers me on a very deep level. It makes me feel like people think they're doing us a favor by accepting us.

Hmmm difficult. When I presented myself as male, I wasn't a great guy at all. I was overcompensating male behaviour, kept people at a distance because I was scared about being "found out" when they would come too close and was often accused of being arrogant. But being myself, I'm actually quite different. Sweeter, softer, not "emotionally numb" anymore, I enjoy taking care of people. It's a difference between day and night. It makes me feel much more vulnerable too.

But when people dislike you as a person, they will look for anything to use against you, just in order to hurt you. Had I been a person of colour, handicapped or ugly, that would have been used against me. I consider that unrelated with the issue of acceptance.

I'm not sure there's an easy answer to this one? I sort of see what you're saying, but for me it's possibly down to us being a very small minority? Like you were saying a person in the grey area may not have any particular views about transgender; but then they meet one who isn't very nice - that can potentially change their opinion of everyone who's gone through it as well 

For example there used to be someone who would come into the shop I worked at and routinely abuse the staff. She tried it with me years later and tried to manipulate me into implying she was less feminine than me in front of a group of other people. It was so petty lol!! It was actually about the fact that I wear my watch on my right wrist when I'm right handed. However I can't forgive her for what she used to do to the staff. I shop there now and they're fine with me; because I don't treat them as playthings. She'd also, I was told, use the fact of her trans something (I don't honestly know what she was) ness as a factor to cause upset. She would ask for a gendered product, such as a pair of trousers, then insist the assistant took her to the location personally. Once there  she'd kick up a huge fuss dependent on whether it was the male or female variant (there was no right answer to this) and immediately claim membership of the opposite sex to the item. She'd say she was a man if taken to womenswear and vice versa. She would also threaten people with violence from both her and her 'husband' - he didn't really exist lol!!! 

And, to me, I think there needs to be an end point in how accepting society needs to be. I know that sounds like a nasty thing to say, and I don't want to come across that way, but some people are just horrible and shouldn't be indulged. They need to know that they are and either change their ways or just leave the rest of us alone. I've got nothing against, and I actually volunteer to try and help, those who genuinely need to have our support. But some people just leave you thinking 'what is his/her problem' after each encounter and you start to question everything about them. If they are obviously trans then you question gender as much as anything else  I am so sorry here but I have done it a few times.

Yet if it's a nice person who's kind and friendly then you're far less likely to question anything about their character; I suppose gender or sex included. For me we accept or reject personalities more than anything and I don't see why a nasty person should expect automatic acceptance to carry on being aggressive or weird or anti-social just because they are transgender. Not everyone can be passable, that's fine, but anyone can smile or say hello or do a good deed.  I've met someone else who just didn't, and wouldn't, pass. She was accepting of this and didn't even bother. Yet she was accepted for who she was by being a lovely, warm person. So maybe there is something to it? Perhaps greater acceptance does come from being more social? And maybe the bigger thing is here is to ask if there's anything wrong with that? 

1. MtF inmates who are invalidated because of their crimes.

Like Chelsea Manning who is treated in that way. I feel this is another case. Institutes like prisons are supposed to be neutral and treat MtF inmates according tot the law and basic human rights. This is a separate point, because it's outside of the realm of human interaction

2. Unpopular people who are mocked in their social circles.

I experienced that. Until quite recently I used to be a blogger, but stopped altogether. It was found out by neonazi bloggers I had criticized in articles I wrote in the past, that I was posting on a Dutch transgender forum; I was publicly "outed" for being transgender, called by my male name, a "disgusting ->-bleeped-<-got", Naomi was considered "too Jewish" and I was called a "dirty little man". In order to take ownership of my own narrative, I wrote a coming out article about it, (https://swapichou.wordpress.com/2015/09/15/de-roze-swastika/, but being a moderator on a few fora too, all people whom I had banned or moderated in the past started collectively attacking me for being trans. It was an awful period, but any distinctive trait would have been used against me. People are cruel that way. I can't change that.

3. MtFs who like women or FtMs who like men.

Are these specifically attacked? There are plenty of those, no? Just as many as there are MtF's who like men, right?

4. A co-worker who doesn't like the way you work.

Same as in point two, no?

5. A bipolar or borderline family member who attacks or ignores your gender during an erratic episode.*

I wouldn't hold that against someone who can't help herself.

Naomi, that's just awful to be treated that way - I hope you will find many good friends here and elsewhere who will help you put such worthless low-lives out of your mind.

When I was in self-denial I don't think I'd have contemplated that inmates in for felonies deserved ht, srs, etc. paid for. Now it's complicated in my mind. I now know there are many individuals for which gd is so severe that being allowed to  transition (and their allowing themselves as well) can save their lives. I suppose though that I would draw the line at providing support for those guilty of truly horrendous crimes (rape, torture, vicious murder, etc.)

OP - thanks for making us put on our thinking caps about such things.

@DenaliBe

I wasn't surprised by neonazis acting like that, they can't help themselves. But normal, average people having so little conscience, that was startling and saddening to me.

And about inmates receiving hrt, srs, etc : I don't think it would be possible to make distinctions between kinds of crimes committed. Gender dysphoria is a medical condition and hrt is a treatment, not a privilege. Either you give it to all inmates because medical treatment is a basic human right, or to none.

Yep understand that point Naomi. I also have the same problem maintaining opposition to capital punishment when the crime is unspeakably evil.

Quote from: Naomi71 on January 01, 2016, 01:31:12 PM
1. MtF inmates who are invalidated because of their crimes.

Like Chelsea Manning who is treated in that way. I feel this is another case. Institutes like prisons are supposed to be neutral and treat MtF inmates according tot the law and basic human rights. This is a separate point, because it's outside of the realm of human interaction

2. Unpopular people who are mocked in their social circles.

I experienced that. Until quite recently I used to be a blogger, but stopped altogether. It was found out by neonazi bloggers I had criticized in articles I wrote in the past, that I was posting on a Dutch transgender forum; I was publicly "outed" for being transgender, called by my male name, a "disgusting ->-bleeped-<-got", Naomi was considered "too Jewish" and I was called a "dirty little man". In order to take ownership of my own narrative, I wrote a coming out article about it, (https://swapichou.wordpress.com/2015/09/15/de-roze-swastika/, but being a moderator on a few fora too, all people whom I had banned or moderated in the past started collectively attacking me for being trans. It was an awful period, but any distinctive trait would have been used against me. People are cruel that way. I can't change that.

3. MtFs who like women or FtMs who like men.

Are these specifically attacked? There are plenty of those, no? Just as many as there are MtF's who like men, right?

4. A co-worker who doesn't like the way you work.

Same as in point two, no?

5. A bipolar or borderline family member who attacks or ignores your gender during an erratic episode.*

I wouldn't hold that against someone who can't help herself.

I really am sorry to hear you were treated so terribly! Unfortunately, it's that genre of incident that made me upset enough to want to vent about this topic. Even if I can follow the chain of events and mindset of people as to why this sort of thing happens, I find it no less upsetting!

3. Yes, absolutely, same-sex orientation transgender people are often ridiculed as being less credible. Ray Blanchard is a classic example: he asserted that the only "true transsexual" was the one with a heterosexual orientation, and that the remaining populace was merely fetishistic.

While this example may be a little aged, the mantra maintains an unfortunate presence until this day.

4. Your co-worker could be the unpopular one, here. #2 illustrates treatment by a group for a less tangible set of reasons, whereas #4 illustrates treatment by an individual for a focused set of reasons. Really, I was just trying to list examples.

5. To be a bit personal, this was the only example on the list that was drawn from my own life. My mother has severe borderline personality disorder. I don't hold it against her, and I don't hate my mother. I understand that her behavior is often compulsory. That does not change the fact that she has been severely emotionally abusive throughout my life. Neither, too, does it remedy that she manipulates sensitive information to attack me on an unpredictable whim, and then proceeds as a martyr when questioned (i.e. there is literally no defense for the target).

I have the utmost sympathy for what she's going through, but I am no less entitled to feel distress over it than she is to behave, excused, as she pleases. As the child of a person with a severe personality disorder, it took me ages - and years of therapy - to accept that what was happening to me was not some mere fact of life, but wrong.

It is not more okay to have a vulnerable status attacked simply because the assailant struggles with reasoning. Really, that is the very nature of this topic: your transgender status is brought into question because someone is being unreasonable.

Considering the weight of gender in society, it is deeply, deeply frustrating.

I can really recommend Chelsea Manning's op-ed: http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/32759-transphobia-at-the-intersection-of-the-military-and-prison-industrial-complexes about the treatment of transgenders in prison.

3. Ah yes, the "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" thing. I don't agree with Blanchard at all. In fact I completely agree with Julia Serano's debunking of his " ->-bleeped-<-" concept (see http://www.juliaserano.com/av/Serano-CaseAgainst ->-bleeped-<-.pdf), but I don't believe that his taxonomy of transgenders is intended to ridicule, or that he consider the ones attracted to women less genuine than trans women attracted to men. The problem with his theoretical <not allowed> is, that he reduces transsexuality solely to sexual motivations while factors like age, ethnicity, social background, education etc. are just as important. His concepts are scientifically outdated and incomplete, but that doesn't insult me. Pseudosciences like phrenology, tarot divination or psycho analysis don't insult me either.

5. Yes, borderline. I have an ex with the same personality disorder, but fortunately she's actually positive about me transitioning (for now). We have a (beautiful) son together and are coparenting, so I have no other option than dealing with her. Borderliners indeed are very manipulative, i experienced lots of drama and abuse from her and made a bit of a study out of this personality disorder; in order to be able to deal with her and protect my son, I apply a lot of principles from cognitive psychology, more specifically, the Linehan approach. I also keep my distance emotionally, make her responsible for her own feelings, don't start any unnecessary debate and set very clear boundaries. I'm also aware that the things she says or tries are not related with me, so they don't hurt me. But it's very difficult to manage.

The problem is, that there's not a lot we can change about this behavior. The only thing we can control, is our attitude towards it, the way in which it affects us. Your mother or my ex won't change and no amount of activism or education will change that. What we can change is the treatment of trans people in institutions, policy, scientific definitions.

But there will always be people exploiting any distinctive feature in order to hurt you.

I don't agree with Blanchard, either, but his viewpoint very-much-so questioned validity: literally, he used the term "true transsexual" and broke down the thoughts of others into a "fetishistic disorder." He also said of them, "...a man without a penis, who has certain disadvantages in this world" (paraphrased; not verbatim). Either way, he is not the point, he is an example -- people some times see homosexual transgender people as being perverts or invalid.

I don't want a back-and-forth on BPD because it has been an all-too-exhausting point of my life, but yes, all you can really do is isolate the issue and ignore it; there is no real way to combat it ("literally no defense"). Basing your attitude about BPD on resignation or acceptance is a personal philosophy, and I think it's a perfectly valid one.

However, it is not mine, and what I do feel (which has not been discussed) is also perfectly valid. I am also aware that I will become more personal/irate in this thread than I am comfortable with if I pursue the topic of BPD, so I will resist sharing any further feelings.

Edit: I think you might be aware since you wrote "<not allowed>", but please be very careful about the topic of Ray Blanchard. A certain subject that he is most famously associated with is censored on Susan's and not allowed for discussion. It can end in people being modded and threads being deleted. I sort of regretted bringing him up as soon as I made that post, earlier.

I don't necessarily agree with the censorship, personally, but them's the rules and what have you.

I get your general point that you exemplified with Blanchard. It's like my brother who told me that I might think I'm a Golden Retriever next year, as if I didn't wait for 37 years before I came out of the closet. There were many people not so much disliking me and saying hurtful things like those neonazis, but not acknowledging my transgender identity  for the craziest reasons. Some told me ->-bleeped-<- doesn't exist, some thought I was making it up to get some attention as a blogger, others thought I wasn't genuine because I was so open about it (after I was outed I was) and they believed that "true" transgenders would be quiet about it, maybe more ashamed of themselves.

That did have an effect on me. It made me feel insecure about who I know myself to be. I blogged about these kinds of comments (https://swapichou.wordpress.com/2015/10/06/transbullies/). I'll give you a few translated examples of the remarks that were leveled at me:

• You're a sad person, but I would spend a euro to see your cock and balls amputated. It makes the taste of the meat better, to castrate little piggies just before they are slaughtered
• Will you continue developing your feminine side, Jeroen? You're acting quite would-be dominant right now. Work on that emphatic side of your female persona, you're not convincing.

I'm not resigned to that, but can't allow it to get to me either.

BTW I didn't put that "not allowed" tag in the text. It was an automatic moderating mechanism that was triggered by quite an inconspicuous choice of words! It was supposed to say: f_r_a_m-e_w o-r_k.

Edit I find it very frustrating that dealing with others is taking more energy than the actual process of transitioning.

That sounds awful Sybil, I hope you've been able to put it behind you.

Regarding Chelsea Manning, when she came out I saw many trans people denying her gender identity on the basis of their politics and their belief that she is a traitor. I saw plenty of it on this site as well, it was disappointing to say the least.

Nobody gets to pick and choose who is and who isn't trans, regardless of their personality, politics, criminal history or ability to pass.