I'm on a waiting list to see a gender therapist. I called a few months ago and they said a 4 month wait time so hopefully it won't be too long. But in the meantime I'm constantly in turmoil trying to figure this out. Hopefully I'll be able to stop bombarding this site with essays soon! Can't seem to help it but then again it's the only place I've found to be able to talk about this thing that is on my mind every day. I guess it figures so much spills out. I don't know how to deal with this at all and I don't even really understand myself.  This is me:-

Absence of typically trans type feelings-

-I had no inclination to play with girls or girls toys as a kid
-I loved sports and running around
-I never thought I was a girl
-I never had any problem with being a boy
-I liked how I looked
-I worked out from the age of 15 and had no dysphoria about my body or looking in the mirror

Non trans type feelings relating to personality or social role-

-I love sports and when it comes to the actual act of playing them I love all that macho stuff; determination, dedication, aggression, not taking any rubbish from anyone (why are these attributes male? I know they shouldn't be but it seems worth noting) It's only off the pitch that I feel uncomfortable with that macho stuff.

-I love joking around with my friends who are all pretty 'guyish' guys. I do take part in all that type humour and find it funny. It's just knowing that I have this other side to me that makes me feel different.

-I am quite a laid back person when I'm comfortable with people and I feel like that type of chilled out sense of humour and personality is more often that of a guys than a girls.

-I do sometimes feel the same way as some of my friends when they complain about girls in a 'male v female', 'what are they like' type of way. If I'm honest I do sometimes find the way they can get worked up about little things, at times the over emotional nature, at times the sense of humour as something that I don't relate to. Thinking about this one brings about a rush of embarrassment and shame that I've just been so wrong in going down this road.

Things related to social role and personality that ARE typically trans type feelings-

-I know I'm more in touch with my emotions than most guys

-I know I'm more interested in 'female' type observations about things and life in general than most guys. By that I mean things like empathy, compassion;  understanding  people's feelings and where they are coming from. I tend to talk about these things naturally and I feel very different to most guys in that way. It seems to be me this stuff doesn't even occur to most, or at least they never talk about stuff like that.

-I feel very uncomfortable in large groups of guys. I think it's the confidence that others seem to have. I feel intimidated in large groups of guys in a social setting.

-I have always been jealous of the way girls make friends. If I'm honest I haven't made a single proper friend as an adult. Maybe it just seems this way but all girls need to do is be kind and polite and friendly to each other and they can end up being good friends. As a guy you have to be able to crack a joke or have stories about women or be a good time on a night out drinking. This one is probably more related to the type of life I've had, but regardless there is a type of jealousy of the female social role there. I feel more comfortable with the way females relate to each other.

-I am very uncomfortable with the stereotypical role that males are supposed to take in relationships in terms of dating and stuff. It feels like putting on an act to be able to do that and again I would feel more comfortable with the stereotypical role that women have.

-I am always more comfortable in an interaction with a woman than a man, whether it is serving them a drink at work, speaking to someone on the phone, or visiting the doctor or dentist or something like that.

Other typically trans feelings-

-As early as I can remember I wanted to wear girls clothes and stole my sisters to put on in secret at the age of 4 or 5.

-As I got a bit older I started lying in bed at night imagining what it would be like to wake up and go to school as a girl the next day. It made me happy to do this.

-The thought of being a middle aged balding man makes me want to kill myself. Whereas the thought of being a middle aged woman does not, or at least I have far less negative feelings towards aging that way. I feel like normal women can look great until around 50 odd whereas I am 26 and I am on the verge of looking like that type of man that I really can't handle.

-When I see attractive girls I feel such sadness and jealousy

-When I see girls with nice hair, nice clothes, nice bodies, nice shoes etc, I feel such sadness and jealousy

-When I learnt how sex worked an adolescent something felt wrong. Despite always thinking that I liked girls even from a young age the sensation that I had imagined was very much one of penetration down there in that spot. Later, despite being attracted to girls, it didn't really turn me on to imagine the actual act of penetrating a vagina.

-My first wet dream was one where I was wearing girls clothes. That is all it was.  I looked down and I looked like a girl and I came.

-Despite trying I was very old before I learnt how to masturbate. Nothing happened when I imagined sex with girls. After a while I looked at transsexual porn and I orgasmed for the first time.

-I frequently have dreams where I am a woman and have sexual dreams where I am a woman with men.

The sexuality issue

When I imagine being a girl I get turned on. When I imagine being a girl with a man I get turned on. I don't feel attracted to guys otherwise. I definitely notice good looking ones but more as just a matter of fact type thing. It still feels like I have more of a sexual attraction to girls who I think are good looking. But when I imagine that I am a woman I am attracted to the thought of being with a guy and the touch of their bodies etc. When I'm in that place I definitely make a judgement about the type of guy I would be attracted to. But it's only in that mental place. I never see a guy on the street and feel a sexual attraction. I really find the sexuality thing a complete mess to figure out. Another of the main reasons I can't rule out this is all some kind of sexual thing is the attraction to trans girls. I am far more turned on at the thought of being with a transsexual woman, pre-op or post-op, than I am at being with a cis-girl. I really don't understand what that means.

I don't know if I'm just turned on by the idea of changing gender and for some reason developed an interest in that from a young age. I remember finding a magazine of my sisters when I was maybe 10 or 11 which had an article about a trans girl in it. It literally blew my mind and I was so excited. I couldn't believe you could actually do this thing that I dreamed of as though it was flying or something. I remember the butterflies in my stomach. But I also remember the erection. It confuses the crap out of me. I remember there was a very distinct time at around 18 where I stopped cross dressing and it was precisely because I didn't look female anymore. I remember thinking it feels more 'real' when I just imagine it and masturbate. Is that just part of my sexuality and it's because I get more turned the more real it feels or is it because I actually want to be female? I mean I DO want to be female, but a cis guy wants to have sex with girls and gets turned on by it, so that is his sexuality. I want to be female and get turned on by it, so that is just my sexuality? I really don't know.

And after all that does it really matter? Is it just the same thing? I want to be female. So does it matter that my bits tend to go hard if I think about it enough? All I really want to know is how to deal with this.

What would make me happy?

-If I woke up tomorrow a cis-girl. Well the thought of that is so painful because I know how happy I would be but it's just a fantasy.  Even if it turned out that actually I don't like some part of being seen as a female socially, or that I missed this or that privilege I had as a result of being seen as a male socially, it wouldn't matter because those would be problems out there in the world to deal with. Right now all my problems are inside my head and I can't escape it.

-Imagining that I can put this behind me and have a relatively normal guy life. This makes me feel the most positive. That I can learn to not dwell on this feeling and find a way to enjoy being with women sexually then I can be happy. That I can pick up all the good things I had in life that I've done my best to throw away. That is the only vision of my future that gives me the impetus to actually go about my life in a positive way. I never lose the feeling that I'm holding something at bay. Whether it comes on in the sexual way or not, it always comes back.  But what is sooo confusing is that if I can get past this feeling when it comes without masturbating I feel better. And the longer I can go avoiding that the better I feel, but in turn the larger the waves of sadness and jealousy are when they do invariably come. And if I avoid the sexual part for more than a week or so I invariably have a sexual dream about being with a man as a woman anyway. It's like this never ending cycle that prevents me from getting any answers. The only thing that I'm sure of after I've masturbated is that I need to stop doing that. At that moment that is all that seems important, and I can ignore everything else. But then the feelings drive the masturbation again and I get nowhere. I'm not sure if that makes any sense at all.

I'm having that feeling now of what on earth am I doing. What am I looking for here? I'm having that familiar hopeless realisation that no one can really help me but me. I thought I had new questions to ask but reading this back I've just regurgitated things I've said before. But I've written it out now, and if anyone has anything to say it'd be much appreciated.

It's fantastic that you have written this all our. You should definitely print out everything you've written, take it with you and show it to them as it will be a fantastic starting point for your work with them. Nothing you've written necessarily says trans or not trans. A lot of what you wrote could easily have been much of how I experienced things as a kid, teen and young adult (although I was never into sports or working out). So don't get too wrapped up in "I probably can't be trans if I did this or didn't do that" kind of thinking.

Seeing a therapist means you get a chance to discuss what all of the above means for you and what you would really like to do moving forward. It won't immediately lock you into transition, especially if that isn't what you want right now. Just discuss everything you've written above with them and see how it goes!

I'm not a psychologist so take this for what it's worth as my experience and opinion.

For me anyway pre HRT I was somewhat unsure too because of the sexuality and eroticism.  In the literature this always gets written off as a fetish.  After HRT I found that aspect was gone but not missed at all.  Personal identity though remained constant and I began to feel happy with how I look and feel.

So, I have concluded that what might appear to be a simple fetish might also simply be the result of high testosterone getting mixed in with everything else.  After all, someone with high testosterone can get aroused at almost anything.  That's what testosterone does.  So I think it's sometimes very difficult to separate out what's really in your brain from the external influence of testosterone.

I can't help you sort it all out but I think you'll find it becomes clear when you do speak with a therapist and if you do start HRT that will allow you to sort your true feelings without the barrage of testosterone clouding the issue.


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Quote from: Ms Grace on January 03, 2016, 03:23:51 PM
It's fantastic that you have written this all our. You should definitely print out everything you've written, take it with you and show it to them as it will be a fantastic starting point for your work with them. Nothing you've written necessarily says trans or not trans. A lot of what you wrote could easily have been much of how I experienced things as a kid, teen and young adult (although I was never into sports or working out). So don't get too wrapped up in "I probably can't be trans if I did this or didn't do that" kind of thinking.

Seeing a therapist means you get a chance to discuss what all of the above means for you and what you would really like to do moving forward. It won't immediately lock you into transition, especially if that isn't what you want right now. Just discuss everything you've written above with them and see how it goes!

^^^ THIS^^^
Especially the part about TransGender != Transition. TranGender is a spectrum, as well as intensity of each hue.

orangejuice it takes a lot of guts to be as honest and transparent as you have been here. I believe that will go a long way in therapy.  I'm not experienced enough with the process to offer you much advice, but what you've been given above seems like incredibly sound advice. I think I'd look at the therapy process as an opportunity to discover yourself and make yourself a better, happier person - regardless of where you end up finding yourself fitting on the transgender scale. So go for it!

Love,
Denali

There is a difference between what you do and what you are. This combination would define you as a tom boy, much like I am. There is nothing wrong with mixing masculine activities with feminine desires. The trick is to learn how to combine them so you are comfortable with all of them. Just today, I ordered a part for my moms garage door opener which I will fix when the part arrives. It doesn't make me any less feminine to do it. It only makes me skilled in more areas.

What Dena said is right.  I used to play a lot of sports and was fairly good.  I also didn't really hate my body.  In fact it was a pretty good body and I was kind of vain about it.  It just wasn't the right one.  So I liked my body and was dysphoric with it at the same time.  A confusing combination.  I loved camping and was a scoutmaster once (a conservative lurker's head explodes).  And I was a really good one too.

As far as all those so called macho traits, having been in the Army a long time I can tell you those are not macho traits at all.  They are simply the traits of driven people, male or female.

Unlike Dena though my mechanical skills generally suck.  :-)


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Quote from: Deborah on January 03, 2016, 04:58:25 PM

Unlike Dena though my mechanical skills generally suck.  :-)


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That's fine because I am really bad at sports. I lack depth perception and have no clue when a ball is going to hit me in the face.

Thank you so much for all the replies. Haha ye well I love sports and was/am quite good at most stuff I play. I'll play/watch/talk about anything. Currently sitting in the UK watching the NFL and checking my NBA Fantasy team. Not many people really cares about US sports over here but I'm obsessed because well I'm a sports nut. Although they are growing to be fair. And I'm also absolutely hopeless at any kind of DIY, or any other 'stereotypical' male activities. But ye I wouldn't use that to say it means I must not be trans or whatever. Its just such a conflicting thing to grow up being absorbed in. I really loved it which is why I've kind of had this macho looking life and maybe why I didn't care so much about secretly wanting to be a girl. My passion for sport superseded that. Now at 26 and a dodgy hip later its starting to wear off and the elephant in my mind has been let loose.

Quote from: Deborah on January 03, 2016, 03:35:38 PM
I'm not a psychologist so take this for what it's worth as my experience and opinion.

For me anyway pre HRT I was somewhat unsure too because of the sexuality and eroticism.  In the literature this always gets written off as a fetish.  After HRT I found that aspect was gone but not missed at all.  Personal identity though remained constant and I began to feel happy with how I look and feel.

So, I have concluded that what might appear to be a simple fetish might also simply be the result of high testosterone getting mixed in with everything else.  After all, someone with high testosterone can get aroused at almost anything.  That's what testosterone does.  So I think it's sometimes very difficult to separate out what's really in your brain from the external influence of testosterone.

I can't help you sort it all out but I think you'll find it becomes clear when you do speak with a therapist and if you do start HRT that will allow you to sort your true feelings without the barrage of testosterone clouding the issue.


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I am really interested in this and have obviously come across this type of explanation. My situation is crazy complicated but to cut it short I saw a gender therapist previously and was on an anti androgen for 6 days.About a year ago. After 3 or 4 days I felt amazing mentally. But then after 6 I felt terrifyingly bad physically so stopped.

But regarding those mental improvements-given that being transgender is clearly a spectrum-do you think its possible that merely lowered levels of testosterone can solve the problem for some? I know its drastic to say 'solve' but that is very nearly how I felt for those few days. I remember being 16-17 and developing this sort of anxiety like it was a fog clogging up by brain and body. Probably sounds weird but I started to sweat profusely in the smallest social situations, I gained this filter in my mind that sort of jammed up my thoughts a bit. Instead of being carefree I started to feel a bit on edge all the time and not really relaxed enough to be myself. When I took that testosterone blocker. Gone. It was amazing. It was like having deja vu to a feeling. A feeling of being me again. I was sitting on a train talking to a friend and I felt so good. I wasn't nervously checking everything around me, sweating because the guy across from me was staring or feeling self conscious because everyone in the carriage could hear our conversation and filtering what I would say as a result. These are things I tend to do. That day it was gone completely. I was simply just sitting there being me talking to my friend. I felt like I was remembering how I felt as a teenager when this stuff didn't bother me. I felt like it wouldn't bother me again tbh. I know 6 days isn't exactly long enough to make a judgement but that is how drastic it felt. I remember walking up to the desk at my gym. I'd usually be a bit on edge, a bit sweaty even at that interaction but that day I walked up and didn't feel an ounce of anxiety. I was just me. I actually felt like starting a conversation. I realise this probably sounds ridiculous after such a short time but I really did feel so drastically different. Maybe that is why it started causing me problems physically. In that same gym session doing sprints on a treadmill and feeling so laid back I could nod off at the same time as pushing my body to the limit physically felt very odd and disconcerting, and then later that night I woke up feeling scary bad, but I won't get into that, its sort of a concurrent issue I'm having to deal with.

What do you think about some people possibly just requiring lower testosterone levels?

One Dr. thinks that may be the case.

Testosterone Toxicity Implicated in Male-To-Female Transsexuals? Some thoughts.
http://avitale.com/TNote15Testosterone.htm


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Thanks. So if I've understood that correctly her theory or 'prediction' as she puts it is that above a certain level of testosterone in some male brains a process kicks in that converts that excess testosterone into estradiol and causes feminine feelings? That sounds positive to me in terms of finding a way to deal with it.

It scares me though that its such an under researched field. I mean I've come across Anne Vitale before. She's one of the most prominent people doing research into this right? And even that was basically her using anectodal evidence to suggest a theory. I'm in no way saying its wrong. I suppose I'm just the type of person that I need to see the backed up science. I reckon we will find that brains are not wholly male or female but rather one or the other to varying degrees.

Its just for me personally the idea of saying I was born with it doesn't sit completely right. I mean what can we really tell about what is picked up in the first years, months, even days of life? We pick up character traits that last a lifetime and are so much a part of us. What if I just picked up the desire to be female? Again I'm only talking about me here and it doesn't even matter in terms of the solution I suppose. I have heard about the hormone thing given to pregnant women and a high incidence of gender dysphoria which would suggest being born with it in that instance. I suppose what would suggest that theory for me is the completely unexplainable way I've always felt like I have female parts down there in terms of the sensations that turn me on. How I could have possibly picked that up I have no idea. Even when I was young before I  understood how sex worked I imagined a feeling that I later learned was more like the female experience of sex. And I mean specifically in that area too. I suppose that would very much suggest the female brain wiring against male hormone development theory. Its like whatever part of my brain sends signals down there its wired to send them for female parts. Interesting. Thanks.

Quote from: orangejuice on January 03, 2016, 06:25:48 PM
Thanks. So if I've understood that correctly her theory or 'prediction' as she puts it is that above a certain level of testosterone in some male brains a process kicks in that converts that excess testosterone into estradiol and causes feminine feelings? That sounds positive to me in terms of finding a way to deal with it.

That's what she says.  Part of it makes sense to me.  My T was pretty high, 826, and my E was also above male normal ranges.  I'm not sure about that being the cause of feminine feelings though.  If that were the case then bodybuilders on steroids would all become transsexual.  Since that's not the case I question her conclusion.

If she meant that this interacts with a brain that's already transsexual then ok.  But if it's already transsexual then the higher T isn't a cause although it may exacerbate the felt symptoms.

In any case lowering T might relieve your symptoms without further HRT if that's what you want to do.  It might be worth a try anyway if your Dr. agrees.


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One other thing comes to mind about me that might support the first part of her theory.  About three years ago I was in my last episode of trying to beat the trans.  So I was marathon training and running way more than my body could recover from, averaging 10 miles every day.  Lots of it run pretty hard.  The need to cross dress and outwardly express was way down.  At one point I was feeling extremely run down and had my blood tested.  My T at that time was 575 which was normal but as I later found out 250 points below my usual level.

So, was that the reason the dysphoria was lessened?  Or was it because I kept myself in a state of constant exhaustion?  I don't know.

Once I stopped to let my body heal, within a few months the dysphoria was back in greater strength than ever.  So here I am now.

The one positive from that last episode was that I did get really good at running, for a while.  LOL


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Quote from: Deborah on January 03, 2016, 06:40:38 PM
That's what she says.  Part of it makes sense to me.  My T was pretty high, 826, and my E was also above male normal ranges.  I'm not sure about that being the cause of feminine feelings though.  If that were the case then bodybuilders on steroids would all become transsexual.  Since that's not the case I question her conclusion.

If she meant that this interacts with a brain that's already transsexual then ok.  But if it's already transsexual then the higher T isn't a cause although it may exacerbate the felt symptoms.

In any case lowering T might relieve your symptoms without further HRT if that's what you want to do.  It might be worth a try anyway if your Dr. agrees.


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I suppose she could mean that instead of defining a brain as wholly transsexual or wholly not there are simply incongruences that can occur between between brain and body, one being that some may only be able to handle certain levels of testosterone before converting that into estradiol. And maybe that is just one part or one thing that can happen to the brain if there is that imbalance between wiring and hormone development. It makes just as much sense to me to say every transsexual brain would be different as it does to say every male or female brain would be different. I mean how many neurons and neurological pathways do we have again? Loads. It would clearly have to be as a result of an imbalance already there but maybe its just to varying degrees in everyone hence why bodybuilders don't become transsexual. Though who knows if you place so much importance on looking big and strong and take so much enjoyment from that that you take steroids, and also given the social scene you are likely to be involved in, then you would probably be horrified to tell anyone if you developed feminine feelings!

But I have absolutely no idea what I am talking about at all really! Thanks for the help.

Just seen your next post. Well ye exercise and running and getting that adrenaline running through my body and the tiredness that comes after it was basically the only tool I had in my locker to keep these feelings at bay. Well actually not to keep them at bay, just to feel like I didn't care that they were there. I always just figured that was just the general well being, satisfaction, and just generally keeping my mind occupied that came with exercise though? Exercise doesn't lower T levels does it? Or do you mean you were unwell as a result of over exercise which lowered your T levels?

Hi I am new to the forum and from Greece so excuse me for my english, so I feel the same way as orangejuice but a little bit diffrent I don't like sports that much but except that it's the same I am afraid cause I live in greece and here there are a lot of bad people that don't like the lgbt community also my family is going through a really hard time so I don't want them to have any more problems but I really envy my female friends on how they live like I would like to live and I can't my friends that know of my situation are very suportive but I fear the possibility of me transitioning only to find out that I made it worse and my family had to go through this only for it to be a mistake I have read stories of post op transwomen that complitly lost their libidos to the point of not even orgasming and I am like what if this happens to me what if I am just fooling myself. Sometimes the thought of suicide cam to me but i imediatly decided against it cause i love my family and they would suffer if I wasnt around I also read of stories about transwomen that wanted to find help here in greece only to be listed as sociopaths from doctors here in greece and I don't know I am just 18 and afraid of what should I do I on the matter of a gender therapist or doctor I will contact some lgbt communities and organazations here to ask them for a list of trusted doctors but any other advice would be appriciated cause only the thought that there is someone with knowledge that can help me make me feel safe

Yes, I over trained myself to the point of chronic exhaustion.  I got to the point that my ability to run severely diminished and just walking around was hard.  So I had to stop to let all my internal systems heal and get working properly again.


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You have really analyzed yourself pretty well! Sometimes the self realization of who you are or want to be takes time, but its great that you're asking yourself deep questions and taking the initiative to explore your feelings towards your identity. I think that if you can't see yourself growing older into a man than you should definitely mention that to your therapist!

In regards to exercise, I can sort of relate to that too. When my puberty began to start I began to restrict my diet and over exercised through running (developed into anorexia). I still do love sports and running, but I used it more as an outlet to take my mind off the dysphoria. I think exhaustion can sometimes make your hormone levels out of whack. In my case I stunted my growth, but it didn't lower my testosterone levels I believe, just merely slowed them from increasing.

I feel much of the same way I'm into stereotypical guy things like sports but I do display a lot of feminine characteristics like empathy and understanding I'm also clueless when it comes to any kind of handyman stuff lol transgender is a very broad term and I'm trying to figure out where I fall into place seems like you're in a similar spot