Quotethe enlightened Buddhist would realize that transition is totally unnecessary, even silly

The truly enlightened Buddhist would realize that everything is silly, including enlightenment.  I also think that desire (and the resulting pain thereof) is highly misunderstood.  Just because you don't need to do something doesn't mean you shouldn't, just as the ability to do something doesn't mean you should.

Sitting around in some cave all day doesn't mean you are enlightened.  Rejecting society doesn't mean you are enlightened.  Rejection in itself is a form of attachment.

Transition doesn't really have any effect on enlightenment either way.  Suffering doesn't follow from actions, although actions are often associated with suffering.  But the real cause of suffering is state of mind only.

Why do you think the Buddha eventually changed his initial renouncement of materialism?  It's because he realized the Middle Way, and that the material world is here for a reason.

You left out my preface "one could say" meaning I was merely bringing up a contrary point of view. I agree that Buddhism is relatively neutral when it comes to the issue of transition, that is more than can be said of the other major religions of the world.

Posted on: August 07, 2007, 12:23:41 PM

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Quote from: VeryGnawty on August 07, 2007, 03:10:28 AM

Quotethe enlightened Buddhist would realize that transition is totally unnecessary, even silly

It's because he realized the Middle Way, and that the material world is here for a reason.

Which is?

Posted on: August 07, 2007, 12:25:00 PM

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Quote from: VeryGnawty on August 07, 2007, 03:10:28 AM

Quotethe enlightened Buddhist would realize that transition is totally unnecessary, even silly

Transition doesn't really have any effect on enlightenment either way. 

I would say that the quieting of the mind that comes from eliminating GID can help one on the path to enlightenment.

This thread has been VERY enlightening. Keep it up! I've never considered how enlightenment would affect one's need to transition. Thanks, everyone. This is wonderful.

I know that there are some good philosophies but I have my criticisms. Like for example Suffering is caused by desire.    do people desire to suffer?

Quote from: Blanche on August 08, 2007, 01:48:36 AM
I know that there are some good philosophies but I have my criticisms. Like for example Suffering is caused by desire.    do people desire to suffer?

No.

Most Westerners have a hard time understanding Buddhist teaching (Including me BTW) It took me about two years of exploration to finally start to understand. Here is an excellent source.

www.zencast.org

You can also download all the stuff on itunes.

Fascinating thread. I've also explored Buddhism at various times of my life, perhaps enough to even be JuBu (with pagan leanings) . I've sometimes wondered, in regard to impermanence of the body, whether it's truly necessary for me to transition physically, or whether the truly important thing on this path was/is simply to realize and attempt to accept and understand this aspect of myself. Still trying to figure that one out, LOL. I think the g-ddess has quite the warped sense of humor, if you ask me.

Zythyra

I used to make a lot of money. I had a big new house. New vehicles. My own company. I was in a long term marriage. I had four good kids who did great in school and never got into trouble. I was a community leader and politicians visited me during election cycles. I coached little league football and was secretary of the league. I coached and mentored 10-12 year old kids. I played in a band with my sister, brother, wife and some good friends. I had the nicest PA system, the best guitars and amp. I guess you could say I had it all.

Not only did I not feel any fulfillment, I hated my life and I hated myself. There were so many people counting on me, I was totally paralyzed. My wife and family counted on me to provide for them and to care for them. My customers relied on me to solve their problems. My employees counted on me to provide them with stable employment, a safe working condition, and fair wages. Little league counted on me to not only coach my team, but to use my influence to get local corporations to support our league. My band members counted on me not only to learn my parts and be rehearsed, but also to buy and maintain the sound gear, as well as do all the bookings. My wife counted on me to run the business, bring in new work, bid jobs, collect accounts, design and build jobs as well as satisfy her sexual and emotional needs.

Coming out was in impossibility. It meant losing everything. Yeah, that same everything that was draining the life blood out of me, while not meeting any of my own needs. My life it seemed, was for everyone else's benefit. I was there to provide income and support for everyone else. I was so attached to everything, I had no chance to find happiness.

The economy where I lived relied on the Pacific Rim. In 1998 the financial crisis there caused a huge recession. That caused a major slow down where I lived. I hung on as long as I could, but by 2000 the phones stopped ringing and I had extended my company and personal credit as far as I could. I was forced to fold my business.

I moved back to LA and within a few months I had worked my way up and was again making almost a hundred grand a year. But two years later I got so ill I could no longer work. My marriage was on the rocks and we had already been living separate lives for a while. We rarely talked, had sex once in while, which I usually failed at anyway and whenever we went anywhere together, we just ended up fighting. I had long suspected she was having an affair, but I was now very certain and started preparing myself for a divorce.

In the end I had to let go of everything. I lost my company, my house, my new cars, my job, my wife, coaching, playing in a band and any hope that I might ever return to my former employment. Now I live in disability, drive a ten year old car, live in an apartment and the only commitment I have now, is taking care of my two kids who still live with me, and going to college.

All of the stuff that I was so attached to, that I thought meant so much, not only did not make me happy, but was a huge source of discontent. That is because it tied me to a life that I hated. There was no way I could ever be Elizabeth in that life. I had to let it all go to truly be free. I don't want a zillion people counting on me. I want to live my life how I choose. As myself, Elizabeth.

I am happier than I ever recall being. I feel a real sense of contentment most of time. $3000 magically appears in my bank account every month and I get another almost $4000 every semester for student aid. I have Medicare and my exwife pays for my kids insurance. I don't owe any money to anyone. I found a wonderful woman who loves me for who I am and I go to college where people are open minded and treat me with respect.

I had to let it all go to find happiness. I don't have much money for entertainment, but I go to concerts and there is always museums and the beach, which don't cost a lot. I spend a great deal of time reading and learning. I love to learn, just can't get enough. For the first time since I was a little kid, I am not fantasizing about killing myself to end the pain.

I love that line from Fight Club where he says "the things you own, end up owning you". That was sure true for me. My life was about supplying things, to everyone, but they never made me happy. What made me happy was getting to live my life as a women. That's all. I don't need anything else.

Love always,
Elizabeth

QuoteI've sometimes wondered, in regard to impermanence of the body, whether it's truly necessary for me to transition physically

Nothing is necessary.  The only thing which has ever been necessary is what you deemed necessary.  You could just as easily change nothing, as change everything.  The question is, would you really want to?

On a related note, desire isn't what causes suffering.  Attachment causes suffering.  Desire simply provides a motive to do something.  But attachment prevents you from doing anything else.  The reality is that it doesn't matter what you do at all.  That is enlightenment.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on August 12, 2007, 03:27:01 PM

QuoteI've sometimes wondered, in regard to impermanence of the body, whether it's truly necessary for me to transition physically

Nothing is necessary.  The only thing which has ever been necessary is what you deemed necessary.  You could just as easily change nothing, as change everything.  The question is, would you really want to?

On a related note, desire isn't what causes suffering.  Attachment causes suffering.  Desire simply provides a motive to do something.  But attachment prevents you from doing anything else.  The reality is that it doesn't matter what you do at all.  That is enlightenment.

You are splitting hairs here. Mere desire that is devoid of clinging and craving (atttachment) does not cause dukha. But this is a distinction that might confuse a lot of people.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 14, 2007, 08:58:55 AM
You are splitting hairs here.

If that's what is necessary for true knowledge, then I'm about to split a few more.

There is no true knowledge, you know that!

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 20, 2007, 01:11:59 AM
There is no true knowledge, you know that!

Yes, but there is an illusion of knowledge.  And it's exciting to pretend and play make-believe.  Which, in reality, is probably why we are all here in the first place.  To make-believe our own illusions.  It's just that most people have forgotten that they are just pretending, and instead take themselves dead serious.  Hence, suffering.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on August 21, 2007, 12:51:04 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 20, 2007, 01:11:59 AM
There is no true knowledge, you know that!

Yes, but there is an illusion of knowledge.  And it's exciting to pretend and play make-believe.  Which, in reality, is probably why we are all here in the first place. To make-believe our own illusions.  It's just that most people have forgotten that they are just pretending, and instead take themselves dead serious.  Hence, suffering.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on August 12, 2007, 03:27:01 PM


Nothing is necessary.

Nothing is essential.

In the 20 or so months since I posted this thread I've done a lot of other reading.  The basic idea still being, accept yourself and others for who you and they are and you will live a happier life.  And I believe that.  It's worked for me and has been at the core of enabling me to transition.

Like Elizabeth, I lost a lot.  About all I have left now is work and I won't give that up because I'm so close to retirement.  But little by little I m feeling there is hope that those who walked out of my life because I'm trans will return.  As much as it hurt to lose them I was able to deal with it because I learned to accept things for what they are and I attached no further meaning to them.

But when it comes to accepting my male physical self and try to live the life as a male, well, I just can't seem to do that.  I've thought this over hundreds of times and there seems to be no way I'll ever accept my physical self as it is.  I need GRS and want BA.  I may even pursue FFS.  And I know when it's all done I will be immensely happier.  There's no mind games I can play with myself that can take the place of having the surgeries.  It's a fact I have accepted.

Wilh all the different belief systems out there I have never encountered one that will overcome the transsexual's desire to change physical gender.  In fact I'd say many of them help the TS to pursue living their life in the way that makes them happiest even though it's such a social taboo.  For me it was critical in allowing myself to transition.  If I was still hanging on to my old beliefs I'd be a wreck by now because the inner battle would be raging more than ever.

Whatever beleif system one uses, as long as it results in inner peace and real happiness (or whatever goal they have in mind), it's the right belief system for that person.  And we just have to accept that.

Julie

I am just adding myself to the list of Buddhists here.

I have a Soto Zen Practice.

Have a nice day everyone.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 25, 2007, 11:16:05 AMThe basic idea still being, accept yourself and others for who you and they are and you will live a happier life.

This is important.  This is where judgment and resentment enter the picture.

For example, let's say I have a friend.  I may not personally like to do the things my friend does.  I might call my friend stupid.  This is not good nor bad, nor is it karma.  It is just a fact, my friend really is stupid.

The enlightenment comes from recognizing that there is nothing wrong with stupid.  Plenty of people do dumb stuff.  It is a learning experience.  What is important is knowing how to educate the friend and allowing him to make his own decisions, rather than force him to change.  Because force is always done out of resentment/judgment, which is karma, rather than love (which is the only thing which doesn't cause suffering).

Many people make the mistake of trying to force someone to change their lifestyle, claiming that they love this person.  It is only elitism.  You think that your ideas are better.  In reality, they probably are better, but the forcing someone to change still causes suffering regardless of how much more efficient your lifestyle is than theirs.

QuoteBut when it comes to accepting my male physical self and try to live the life as a male, well, I just can't seem to do that.  I've thought this over hundreds of times and there seems to be no way I'll ever accept my physical self as it is.

This is where the splitting of hairs comes in handy that I mentioned earlier.  The only truth is for accepting the self as it is, and everyone else as they are.  This is the self, the whole self, and nothing but the self.

For example, one may think that by accepting oneself as male, one may obtain peace and enlightenment.  However, a decision such as this usually results from a lack of information on what the self is.  If one tries to accept oneself as male, but doesn't really want to be male, this is still attachment.  One is attached to the idea that one SHOULD accept oneself as male, or all the more the idea that one SHOULD NOT make a transition to female.

Anytime one says that one SHOULD do something, or NEEDS to do something, this is a clear sign of attachment.  There is never a need, only a doing.  One CAN be male, just as one CAN be female.  But the choice is merely that:  a choice.  It has no weight or bearing attached to it, and no deliberation is necessary to make the choice, because the choice doesn't actually matter.

This is an example of being attached to the idea of detachment.  One believes that one "needs" to do certain things to become more spiritual.  True enlightenment comes when one realizes that one doesn't need to do anything, including quest for enlightenment.  Only then, when one is free of attachment, can one make a rational choice about how to live one's life.

The real irony is that when such an enlightenment comes, physical transition will no longer matter (because one is detached) but most people would still choose it anyway (because they can).

This is why enlightenment is so hard to grasp.  It is actually a paradox.  You get what you want by forgetting that you want it.  But few people are ever willing to forget, because they won't realize that their attachment to a result is the very thing preventing them from having it.

the things you own, end up owning you

Beyond brilliant that line, really.  I always told my kids to watch their ABCs (Amusements, Books, and Companions) for that which they brought into their life would become their life.

I too was radically unhappy doing what I thought others expected of me, defining success by what they viewed as being successful.  Fast cars, big expensive motorcycles, huge CD collection and a stereo of the gods with speakers so big the joke was I was going to be buried in them.  After all, a professor of the history of technology at a huge engineering school ought to have great technological toys.  Not until I walked away from all of that did I realize that the only thing that kept me going was that I could tour in the summer and live on a bus, work from sun-up to long into the night, crawl back to my bunk and relax.  No meetings, no toys, no striving, no grades, just good hard work.


I like:
Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind: by Shunryu Suzuki

Quote from: tekla on January 21, 2008, 12:41:23 PMI like:
Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind: by Shunryu Suzuki

Excellent book.

I have enjoyed Being Peace, Thich Nhat Hanh

He is most wonderful also.  His lectures are a large source of comfort to me.

Quote from: tekla on January 21, 2008, 12:41:23 PM

I too was radically unhappy doing what I thought others expected of me, defining success by what they viewed as being successful.  Fast cars, big expensive motorcycles, huge CD collection and a stereo of the gods with speakers so big the joke was I was going to be buried in them.

I was like that too.  Even when I was a kid, the only material thing I really liked was food (I used to eat like a hog).  I was never concerned much with careers or diplomas or possessions or money.  In fact, the only reason I have money is because I hardly spend any.

I find a lot of great ideas in Buddhism and Jainism.  Taoism in particular resonates with me.  When I first started reading the Tao Te Ching, I thought it was the most sensible thing I had ever read.