Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 13, 2016, 02:18:59 PM

Quote from: Lisa55
I respectfully disagree that such speculation is less than helpful.  The bathroom bills brigade have been harping on about sex predators posing as trans,  and men in the ladies room and even us being the predators, and they have been doing it for years now and they are winning the debate while we protest their claims are just not true, just take a look at HERO.  FINALLY they are being hit back with equally emotional and hard hitting propaganda on these bathroom bills.    The bill may not say they will have a panty inspection but telling mom its what the bill means hits just as hard if not harder than the blows against us, as its not just possible encounters with trans people or predators,  but rather sanctioned perving by authority and is the only logical way to enforce the ridiculous laws.

Its effectiveness can clearly be seen by the reaction not only here, but this article has made it all the way to a UK general discussion forum i read, ok it hasn't had much discussion but the fact it was posted at all and with a WTF comment speaks volumes to me.

I say we need more of this type of emotional arguments in response to these bills, pretty girls by urinals and Buck angel in front of a row of stalls make sense to us but doesn't speak to mom and pop, panty police in their kids school does.

I'm assuming the enforcement of this (if it goes through) would be achieved by mandating that your restroom choice matches the sex on your birth certificate, not a revealing of your genitals at the door of said restroom. I stand by my words. I don't think emotionally charged speculation will solve anything.

Hugs, Devlyn

Well the legislation says  "anatomical sex" not birth certificate or driving license, so although it is speculated that it would be a birth certificate check it is more accurate and inline with the wording of the legislation to say it could be a panty check.   Realistically it will be neither, and who carry's their birth certificate around anyway, but these bills are all emotionally driven, none of them really stand a chance of passing, they are just grandstanding to where the money is, but destined to not make it through the committees in time for a house vote before the session closes.

As emotionally driven bills they need emotionally driven counter arguments to fight them.  It is exactly what they were planning on doing to support it, its exactly what the proponents of these bills have done every time so far.  For once the opposed side got the blow in first and just read the comments section to see the devastating effects it has had on public opinion.  Comments sections on articles on these bills are universally trans-phobic.  Not on that article, for the most part its the same type of hate (so not really good) but directed at the proposer rather than us. 

For once it is massively backfiring on the sponsor and that sort of blow back is all they will hear and what it will take for these bills to stop being presented.  They are presenting them to garner public support in a "think of the children" "your wife is at risk" and we are here to protect you kind of way,  if that public opinion and the hate they use is turned against them they will think twice about bringing more.

On a side note and being foreign I'm not really sure of the intricacies of the US justice system, but would it actually take one of these bills to pass into law to enable a challenge to be made that can go to SCOTUS for a constitutional ruling similar to gay marriage.  After all if something is not actually illegal but just undefined how can a case be brought to SCOTUS.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 13, 2016, 02:18:59 PM
I'm assuming the enforcement of this (if it goes through) would be achieved by mandating that your restroom choice matches the sex on your birth certificate,

Once again, paperwork is not the real world. For four months I had a birth certificate saying "Female" and male genitalia. If it can happen to me it can happen to others.

Next idea please Devlyn...

Quote from: pyhxbp on January 13, 2016, 03:22:20 PM

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 13, 2016, 02:18:59 PM
I'm assuming the enforcement of this (if it goes through) would be achieved by mandating that your restroom choice matches the sex on your birth certificate,

Once again, paperwork is not the real world. For four months I had a birth certificate saying "Female" and male genitalia. If it can happen to me it can happen to others.

Next idea please Devlyn...

I'm not defending the proposed legislation. I don't have any more ideas about the imaginary genital inspection that somehow became attached to this story. It doesn't seem worth talking about.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Lisa55 on January 13, 2016, 03:18:18 PM


Well the legislation says  "anatomical sex" not birth certificate or driving license, so although it is speculated that it would be a birth certificate check it is more accurate and inline with the wording of the legislation to say it could be a panty check.   Realistically it will be neither, and who carry's their birth certificate around anyway, but these bills are all emotionally driven, none of them really stand a chance of passing, they are just grandstanding to where the money is, but destined to not make it through the committees in time for a house vote before the session closes.

As emotionally driven bills they need emotionally driven counter arguments to fight them.  It is exactly what they were planning on doing to support it, its exactly what the proponents of these bills have done every time so far.  For once the opposed side got the blow in first and just read the comments section to see the devastating effects it has had on public opinion.  Comments sections on articles on these bills are universally trans-phobic.  Not on that article, for the most part its the same type of hate (so not really good) but directed at the proposer rather than us. 

For once it is massively backfiring on the sponsor and that sort of blow back is all they will hear and what it will take for these bills to stop being presented.  They are presenting them to garner public support in a "think of the children" "your wife is at risk" and we are here to protect you kind of way,  if that public opinion and the hate they use is turned against them they will think twice about bringing more.

On a side note and being foreign I'm not really sure of the intricacies of the US justice system, but would it actually take one of these bills to pass into law to enable a challenge to be made that can go to SCOTUS for a constitutional ruling similar to gay marriage.  After all if something is not actually illegal but just undefined how can a case be brought to SCOTUS.

I guess we disagree there, I think a rational approach without ominous music in television commercials gets more done. 

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 13, 2016, 03:39:58 PM
I guess we disagree there, I think a rational approach without ominous music in television commercials gets more done. 

Hugs, Devlyn

I don't disagree with you on that, a rational approach will always get more done.  But it relies on both sides being rational.   These bills are far from that from the very start, we all know they have no basis, there is no evidence of a problem with trans predators, rational comment on sex offenders prepared to commit serious crime not being put off by an additional minor offense falls on deaf ears, pointing out the existence of transmen and how they would be required to use the ladies room and how that becoming the norm would make it easier of male predators to enter the same space without even the bother of dressing up, even pictures of Buck in the ladies room have been completely ineffective.

HERO struck down protections for many groups on an emotional argument from an irrational campaign.  Florida was an emotional attack on Florida trans people, I watched the committee meetings, I wrote the the representative for the county I vacation in along with the other committee members, The testimony from the against lobby was for the most part rational even if some of the witnesses got emotional at the attack on their identity, the witnesses for the pro lobby were emotional victims of unrelated (non trans) assault but presented no evidence to suggest the bill would or could have changed their circumstance, they just showed fear.  The votes did not reflect the testimony, they didn't reflect the one reply i received from a representative, it was partisan voting with a plan to time out the bill in the last committee, all it did was distress trans people in Florida and around the world. Rational arguments fell on deaf ears, I told them they would loose tourist money if they introduced the bill to law, that Florida's reputation as a welcoming tourist destination was being harmed, but deaf ears.  Did the bill and publicity affect Florida's bottom line, probably not, but there was at least one beach condo owner paying their own mortgage in June, they may not have know why but it cost them $$$ as we went elsewhere, but again such minor action had little effect on the "plan"

Turning their own arguments back onto themselves might and its about the only thing that has made even a dent in them.  But i will try and stop here by agreeing with you that rational argument can achieve more but only if both sides behave rationally. 

*

The first people who must get in line for panty patrol must be the Governor for supporting this monstrosity, and every legislator who voted for it, and all their legislative aides and employees, and all their corporate and political sponsors, and all their relatives, and each and every one of all their children right down to their newborn babes.  If this legislation is that important, then they must lead the way.  The inspection results of each and every one of those persons must also be published for all the public to read and examine.

Who are likely to be inspectors?  Guaranteed to be paedophiles first in that job application line.

Don't tell me Birth Certificate or medical records will be used.  Birth Certificates may be public records but hardly accurate when coming to correct identification; I know first-hand as inter-sex.  Medical records are private; no government agency, or officer, or contractor should be allowed to demand them from a private citizen.

Where are all those right-wing, Republican Party, Christian Conservatives whining and wailing about 'big guh'mint intrusion' staying out of one's individual privacy?

*

Not to derail the thread, but nice picture, Lisa.

Quote from: Lisa55 on January 13, 2016, 04:34:08 PM
... pointing out the existence of transmen and how they would be required to use the ladies room and how that becoming the norm would make it easier of male predators to enter the same space without even the bother of dressing up, even pictures of Buck in the ladies room have been completely ineffective.

This is the best argument I can come up with also and that is what I told my representative in Indiana in regards to Jim Tomes bill there. Predators won't even have to bother with dressing up as a woman to gain entrance to the women's room. These bills actually make women and girls LESS SAFE.

Though I still like posting pictures of Buck Angel too.

Quote from: Arch on January 14, 2016, 03:13:28 AM
Not to derail the thread, but nice picture, Lisa.

Thanks, it was one of my first which is all me (ok so still inch deep in makeup) but rather with my own hair as opposed to a wig, It also made me feel good as its a rare photo of me with even a hint of genuine smile which gives me hope for the future.

I like the HERO approach.  I do think Devlyn has some excellent points. 

However, this is an uninforceable bill designed to get votes from ignorant people and to deflect attention on the failure of the current government to deal real problems.

Jen

At first you think what a moron, then what could be the motivation.
Or more in general WHY is trans gender bathroom use all around such an issue .
1:  We can think of the parent,s who only think (as there parents told them )
don't get pregnant ,younger parents you get aids.
2:  We can think of perverts or I dare you  who take pictures/film and put them on the net for the world to see, but boys and girls among themselves do that to.
3:   Shyness many are uncomfortable around the other sex, or the male scared the get a woody
explains  something.
4:  Political pressure from      ........  fill in the dots.
5:  Own fear ,shame ,frustration or experience.
But it is our use of  looks in our daily life that forms the core of the problem.
As an extreme example the military uniform, the more stripes, clouds or stars make how to name/rank , and they used that rank name or a sir or ma, am .Would love to see a male officer in skirt and to see how he get addressed 

Quote from: stephaniec on January 12, 2016, 08:24:44 PM
Virginia GOP bill would require schools to verify children's genitals before using

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/virginia-gop-bill-would-require-schools-to-verify-childrens-genitals-before-using-restroom/

Raw Story/David Edwards 12 Jan 2016 at 15:06 ET   

"A bill filed by a Virginia lawmaker this week would require schools to be certain that children are using the restroom corresponding to their "correct anatomical sex."

The legislation, which would prohibit transgender students from using the bathroom matching their gender, is being sponsored by Republican Del. Mark Cole. "

I love how it's okay for people in politics to act stupid. I mean this reminds me of Ben Carson. He also wants to do this not only In schools but everywhere in the us. I feel bad for my fellow LGBT peers when I see; these bills floating around and all these single minded laws. It hurts my stomach when I hear more persecution about LGBT in the news.

Politicians are scrambling to get laws in place against us. The reason being: they are scared. Of what? .. Of that unknown. So what? I mean transgender people have lived out wonderful lives contributing to their community.

We are NOT in bathrooms to be perverts and prey on children! We do our business and leave, just like any other person. I wish politicians would get over it and let it go.
These politicians should worry about the real important issues.

Lastly;
I think making a child show their genitals to school officials is very traumatizing,
At least if you ask me.

Virginian here. This won't pass. The delegate who introduced it comes from a very backwards district full of ignorant people. While it wouldn't surprise me if this came at the request of citizens in that district, it is not at all representative of how Virginia treats transgender people.

Quote from: traci_k on January 13, 2016, 07:15:53 AMAnd I'm now officially switching from Trump to Bernie in 2016.

Trump has stated support for amending the Civil Rights Act to protect LGB persons. While, he didn't mention us specifically, that is a good sign. Switching parties only makes the problem worse as it gives folks like these nutters a larger share of the primary voters and less reason to care about us.

Quote from: lisarenee on January 15, 2016, 09:57:39 PM
Trump has stated support for amending the Civil Rights Act to protect LGB persons. While, he didn't mention us specifically, that is a good sign. Switching parties only makes the problem worse as it gives folks like these nutters a larger share of the primary voters and less reason to care about us.

When did Trump say that? I thought with his stance on women, minorities and immigrants, the entire lgbt would be on his sh*t list as well... Sounds awfully too good to be true.

Quote from: KyleEdric on January 16, 2016, 06:00:56 PM
When did Trump say that? I thought with his stance on women, minorities and immigrants, the entire lgbt would be on his sh*t list as well... Sounds awfully too good to be true.

Trump is a member of a church in Manhattan that is pro-LGBT and has said he supports LGBT protection for employment. He's not anti-LGBT like the other GOP candidates in the top running but he's also not out there advocating LGBT rights. So basically he's not for or against us.

Politician defends legislation which could lead to teens having their genitals 'examined'

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/01/18/politician-defends-legislation-which-could-lead-to-teens-having-their-genitals-examined/

Pink News/By Joseph Patrick McCormick   01/18/2016

"A politician has defended a bill which could require teenagers to have their genitals 'checked' to ensure they correspond to the bathroom they are using.

The bill, put forward by Representative Mark Cole in the state of Virginia, would also fine transgender students $50, if they use the 'wrong' bathroom, locker room or shower. "

"Roger Hunt, a Republican legislator in the US state of South Dakota, proposed the legislation.

It would require a visual inspection of transgender athletes' genitals before competing, as well as a check of the athlete's "original birth certificate"."

Quote from: Lisa55 on January 14, 2016, 08:44:44 AM
Thanks, it was one of my first which is all me (ok so still inch deep in makeup) but rather with my own hair as opposed to a wig, It also made me feel good as its a rare photo of me with even a hint of genuine smile which gives me hope for the future.

Quote from: stephaniec on January 18, 2016, 04:20:37 AM
Politician defends legislation which could lead to teens having their genitals 'examined'

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/01/18/politician-defends-legislation-which-could-lead-to-teens-having-their-genitals-examined/

Pink News/By Joseph Patrick McCormick   01/18/2016

"A politician has defended a bill which could require teenagers to have their genitals 'checked' to ensure they correspond to the bathroom they are using.

The bill, put forward by Representative Mark Cole in the state of Virginia, would also fine transgender students $50, if they use the 'wrong' bathroom, locker room or shower. "

"Roger Hunt, a Republican legislator in the US state of South Dakota, proposed the legislation.

It would require a visual inspection of transgender athletes' genitals before competing, as well as a check of the athlete's "original birth certificate"."

No, it doesn't, and all of these articles that are being posted are clickbait. I wish we could do better than falling for these sensational, yet untrue headlines and claims.

Well, there was another Republican Bill in South Dakota this week whose wording specifically states that Transgender students must have their genitals inspected before participating in sporting events.  Since the Bill calls for genital inspections it's no longer wrong to call them out for it.

http://m.rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/visual-inspection-could-be-part-of-state-law-to-determine/article_18b24dba-550f-5de9-b805-37409c4a7f5c.html#.VdtcZVKCLq8.email


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