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Is torture ever OK?

Started by IsabelleStPierre, December 28, 2007, 06:41:26 PM

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tekla

I was just saying, that the use of torture is now the official policy of the United States, though we seem to like to do it in other places to avoid breaking our own laws.  Just like keeping prisoners in Gitmo, so they are not under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Court system.
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Butterfly

Now, let's us just say that there were no Rules of Engagement, and this was a choice. Torture gives you nothing but fear itself. Yes, maybe it would get you the information you need to help your country. At first. Then people will be too frightened to even come forth with evidence that they may have received or heard of because they are afraid the US would torture them for more information...what would happen then? Would you torture the informant?

Same goes if they are innocent. I could say that my next door neighbor is a terrorist, and the FBI would go interrogate and torture him, but what if I just said that because his dog urinated on my lawn? Or he was white and I'm black? or vice versa? It would bring too much controversy to even begin to think about "fair" torture. In the United States you believe in Innocent until proven guilty. And there are morals by which people follow. Torture is the extra leap into infinity that you as a country and a whole don't need.
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tekla

How low, how degraded have we now become?  Until recently, the last 7 years to be exact, I would have thought this question would rank alongside ones like "when is rape justified?"  That its not just some stupid abstract question for a junior high ethics class, but rather a policy debate at the highest levels of our government must make our Founding Fathers weep.  For a bunch of self-promoting 'followers of Christ' - well you don't need a a talking paraclete to tell you that Jesus is weeping too.

So perhaps a better question might be, how did our nation, our civilization slide so far down, so fast.  I swear I feel like I'm riding in the backseat with Thelma and Louise.
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NicholeW.

Is torture ever justified? Constantly, by those who use it to get what they want.

Is it ever justifiable? IMO, no. Our inhumanities to one another simply seem to perpetuate a state of profound distrust, power-over, fear, which btw seems like the tried and true policy of elites everywhere to maintain their sway over others; i.e., the replacement of the 'Iron Curtain' & the 'nasty, Evil-Empire' Soviets by the "Axis of Evil" Iranians, N. Koreans, Taliban, Al-Qaida, Venezuelan, etc, etc, add any nation or group that political leadership here doesn't like as paper tigers that will and are used to instill even more fear into the lives of USA white-folk for anything and anyone who doesn't embrace the suburban, shopping-mall culture with gusto. (Take a breath, Nichole!)

In the meantime, pass bills that limit freedom of movement, speech for those without ownership of print, electronic media, & pass out cards that delineate electronically every aspect of one's life that someone, a group of someone's, will use to extort, cow, terrorize anyone with the gumption to defy them, or even merely disagree with them.

One finds that torture, like all the other means of legal terrorism is eminently justifiable by someone, generally those in-power who wish to maintain their power-over the majority and continue what they perceive as the benefits of being the coldly materialistic bastards they have made themselves.

Is there a different way that might well be more humane and of value in allowing people to fully be themselves and perhaps cause the fear to diminish? Well, yes. And THAT should be employed.

Like Rebis said, "Don't do it."

So why do I feel like Cassandra? Making prophecies that no one will believe? Darn, should have gone to bed with that Apollo-fellow! *sigh*

Torture, like all those other inhumane and degrading to both victim and perp items, is not helpful.

Nichole     
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Ell

Quote from: tekla on December 28, 2007, 07:43:29 PM
The charges have been filed however, which is going to make it almost impossible for any of these people to travel overseas after they leave office, witness the old Rumsfeld being forced to retreat from France this year faster than the French ever retreated in front of the Germans.  Proving himself the true coward that is was, and is.

that is interesting. thanks for the update, brainiac.
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lisagurl

Quote from: ell on December 28, 2007, 08:15:53 PM
Quote from: lisagurl on December 28, 2007, 07:47:33 PM
Torture is subjective. Reading this thread is torture.

Lisagurl, some of your remarks today are just tripping me out. are you ok?

-ell

I am a creative unique individual, I like to look at things from a different perspective. I am glad you find them entertaining.
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Ell

Quote from: lisagurl on December 29, 2007, 01:43:23 PM
Quote from: ell on December 28, 2007, 08:15:53 PM
Quote from: lisagurl on December 28, 2007, 07:47:33 PM
Torture is subjective. Reading this thread is torture.

Lisagurl, some of your remarks today are just tripping me out. are you ok?

-ell

I am a creative unique individual, I like to look at things from a different perspective. I am glad you find them entertaining.

actually i do.  :)
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buttercup

Is sleep deprevation classed as torture?   There are people that say definitely yes, and others think it is a humane form of torture and is acceptable. 

IMO it is a terrible form of torture because anyone will succumb to telling lies or exaggerate what they already know just to be able to sleep.  Where is finding the truth in that?
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IsabelleStPierre

Is depriving a caffeine addict their daily dose a form of torture?? Hum...
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SusanK

Quote from: Isabelle St-Pierre on December 28, 2007, 06:41:26 PM
Which got me to thinking...is there ever a time when the use of torture is justified???

Not according to the Geneva Convention, which almost all nations have signed but few follow. But for the US, it's not justified as the FBI has shown they can and do get orders of magnitude reliable information than the CIA and DOD. And studies have shown that the worse the torture the worse the information. I find it interesting that the US approves the use of torture, even covertly approving extreme torture, but then whines when other nations use it or take it to the same extreme. Apparently our patriotism is different than someone else's, as is our God which seemingly condones it, but no one can find it in the Bible.

Imagine when George goes to Heaven and meets God. "Hmmm..., I don't know George, you were President of the greatest nation on earth but you authorized the worst types of torture of other humans on earth since the Inquistion. I thought you were a devout Christian. Did you miss something in my messages to you or were you listening to others when I called you personally? You know, there are places for people like you, and sadly for you, it's not here. So, if you go to that counter over there, they'll give you the bus ticket to hell. Next!"

--Susan--
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bethzerosix

QuoteImagine when George goes to Heaven and meets God. "Hmmm..., I don't know George, you were President of the greatest nation on earth but you authorized the worst types of torture of other humans on earth since the Inquistion. I thought you were a devout Christian. Did you miss something in my messages to you or were you listening to others when I called you personally? You know, there are places for people like you, and sadly for you, it's not here. So, if you go to that counter over there, they'll give you the bus ticket to hell. Next!"

--Susan--

yeah... that guys not a christian... just playing one fool a nation. (you can tell a tree by its fruit)

torture is not justified.  it just makes people confess to imaginary things. the real baddies boast about what they have done and what they will do.  like liberating iraq, spreading democracy and upholding the constitution.
Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.
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tekla

As Lenny Bruce once said, "you give me the hot lead ennama and the flag goes straight down the toilet."  You do this to people you do get information.  But bad information is worse than no information in time of war.  Of course, that is the great out, perhaps we are not at real war.

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cindianna_jones

I don't believe we should torture people.  I do believe that we should prosecute those who have allowed it to happen.  They are in charge, they are responsible for breaking the commitments we have made concerning rules of conduct.

Cindi
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Shana A

I don't see any justification for torture whatsoever!

y2g
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Jeannette

Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. I'm assuming that this question was initiated by the treatment of Muslim extremists by American soldiers. Well, I'm French and I think the back-lass that the USA is getting over this is totally unjustified. That fact is that the middle east is about 800 years behind the west in its development and because of this the two cultures will never be able to interact. It's time that the west give up on them and let them get on with doing whatever they do. In answer to your question, torture is a necessary evil when countries are in a state of war.
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Ell

Quote from: Jeannette on December 30, 2007, 02:22:13 PM
In answer to your question, torture is a necessary evil when countries are in a state of war.

Wrong. as a former soldier, i can tell you that it is wrong to shoot the prisoners, and extremely wrong to torture them. treatment of your prisoners has a direct impact on how nations get along after the war is over, and the respect they receive.

-ell
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tekla

OK, let me get this right.  If, as you state, "torture is a necessary evil when countries are in a state of war."  And, since France and Germany were at war ... then the actions of the Schutzstaffel (SS) and the Sicherheitsdienst (SD) as well as the Geheime Staatspolizei (Gestapo) within occupied France were all hunky-dory then, right?. 
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Jeannette

Quote from: ell on December 30, 2007, 02:37:45 PM
Quote from: Jeannette on December 30, 2007, 02:22:13 PM
In answer to your question, torture is a necessary evil when countries are in a state of war.

Wrong. as a former soldier, i can tell you that it is wrong to shoot the prisoners, and extremely wrong to torture them.
-ell

Is that true or what you were "instructed" to say?  I must be misinformed then or maybe paying too much attention to the media.

http://twoday.net/static/mindcontrol/files/alleged_government_sponsored_torture.htm

http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/010205A.shtml

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2007/03/01/70992

http://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/20/bombshell-abc-independently-confirms-success-of-cia-torture-tactics/

http://www.nps.edu/Library/Research/Bibliographies/Intelligence/IntellPolicyBibPeriodicals.html


There has to be some truth in some of this.  Or maybe everything is a "LIE" ;)
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tekla

"any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity" --- The United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment

Also, "Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms... shall in all circumstances be treated humanely." The treaty also states that there must not be any "violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture" or "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment"  The third and fourth Geneva Conventions

Both the United States, and France have signed these documents.
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Ell

Quote from: Jeannette on December 30, 2007, 03:25:27 PM
Quote from: ell on December 30, 2007, 02:37:45 PM
Quote from: Jeannette on December 30, 2007, 02:22:13 PM
In answer to your question, torture is a necessary evil when countries are in a state of war.

Wrong. as a former soldier, i can tell you that it is wrong to shoot the prisoners, and extremely wrong to torture them.
-ell

Is that true or what you were "instructed" to say?  I must be misinformed then or maybe paying too much attention to the media.

http://twoday.net/static/mindcontrol/files/alleged_government_sponsored_torture.htm

http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/010205A.shtml

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2007/03/01/70992

http://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/20/bombshell-abc-independently-confirms-success-of-cia-torture-tactics/

http://www.nps.edu/Library/Research/Bibliographies/Intelligence/IntellPolicyBibPeriodicals.html


There has to be some truth in some of this.  Or maybe everything is a "LIE" ;)


it is true for me; it is true for many US soldiers, but sadly, it is not followed, obviously, by everyone in our military, especially by some in key leadership roles. i do not doubt any of the info you have here. thanks for posting it.  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

-ell
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