The ethical issues are debatable. For instance is living stealth in a long term relationship any more or less ethical than living in the closet, getting married, and having children while keeping your secret? I don't think it to be much different but I don't believe either case is unethical per say. This is from someone who did the latter . I think any of us who have lived in the closet can relate to someone living stealth in that sense.

That said living in either manner, with such a secret, does have its effects on a person, especially in a little by term commitment.


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Stealth or not, it's your business. I'm just glad that we, as a community living in a society that's becoming better informed, are no longer required to live stealth as was the requirement in times past.

I was stealth, living my life in peace, nobody knew my history. I willingly gave it up even though I didn't need to, for a couple of reasons. First, it's stressful to have to always keep your story straight. To a degree (greater than I had imagined) that required me to deny my past. Nope, didn't care for that.

Second reason I came out: I saw, and continue to see, too much transphobic nonsense going on in our society and decided I needed to take some kind of action. I felt it would be hard to be a credible voice for transgender rights if I don't live authentically.

BTW, it hasn't hurt my dating life at all. Weeding out the ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-s and keeping the ones who value what is unique about me is no different than the challenges faced by someone with a physical disability. Sure, it cuts down the eligible dating pool, but why would you want to settle for anyone who doesn't have the depth of character to see the real you?

Quote from: Cindy on January 18, 2016, 01:27:12 AM
Not sure about that, some insecure men may. I met a guy on the weekend who used a cute pick up line and I responded in kind. I told him I was TG before we got hot and steamy, his reply was 'I don't care, you are one of the most fascinating women I have met'. Ye he had good lines!

Which is true ... the experience of being transgender gives many a depth and understanding ... and makes them fascinating .. imo ...


hugs

I can readily understand the lure of stealth.  I think it is true that once someone recognizes us as transgender that descriptor and the transition from wherever is hard to keep from the forefront of their thinking.  I am just as guilty and have met people i did not recognize as trans and once I did i looked at them in a new light of trying to imagine them as??

This is such a personal choice issue and for those who have the option of being successfully stealth I can only imagine the draw to just blend in.  Why would anyone want to raise more hairy eyeballs or second looks or hurtful remarks or literal risks of harm and rejection?  Some of us do not have that option with telltale features that can easily give us away.  As one of those it was part of my decision matrix early on.  Transition for me was/is very public and being passable, much less stealth, not a reasonable goal.  That was my choice, to move into a life that feels so much better.  With greater congruence in body and mind I feel great regardless of pass and stealth.

Perhaps because i had so many years of hiding and denial I cannot fathom now trying to invent cover stories or avoiding topics that could out me.  Better for me to live as clearly transparent a life as possible.  It's been said that it takes a perfect memory to be successfully stealth.  My memory is not that keen and i can only imagine slipping up when people start talking about our past.  I really like having nothing to hide.

Dating is fraught with opportunity to put our best foot forward and then find it closer to being in our mouth.   Again, this is a personal judgment to make about how much disclosure and when.  We all know about the safety and trust issues that are the basis of successful relationships. 

And then the concept of visibility comes into play with a real need for visible transgender mentors, educators, advocates and more people who will ensure progressive change for civil rights and greater acceptance of diversity and the dignity and worth of all people just as they are.  If we don't do it we leave it to the celebrities or??

Tessa brings up issues with which I've dealt.

I've had two marriages, two children, and two divorces (not in that order, btw). Whenever the subject comes up I'm happy to tell friends about my children, and grandchildren. I can do that because my family has accepted me unconditionally. The fact that they all live 2,000 miles away means there are no unexpected meetings between my family and my friends where questions could cause one of them to unintentionally out me.  No one has asked about my exes. If the subject came up I'd say I prefer to talk about happier times.

Of much more difficulty for me is hiding the time I spent in the Army—three years, tour in Vietnam. That time did not define who I am, but it informs my attitude toward things such as those who managed to avoid military service, yet are enthusiastic supporters of sending other people's children to war. It hurts to hold my tongue, but I do. When asked if I spent time in the military I say, "No!" and hope I'm convincing. The only American service women who served in Vietnam, as far as I know, were nurses. I have almost zero medical knowledge—I'd have a hard time lying about that.

I've tried to keep my story as simple as possible so that I never have to remember who knows what about my past. I'm happy to share my work history, which is probably the only opportunity for being outed. But I have no interest in lying. So far I've been fortunate. If my house of cards comes crashing down I'll deal with it. I'm at an age where passing (no, the other kind) has become something I contemplate. I feel I owe all my friends an explanation for why I worked overtime to deceive them (I didn't, but some will feel that way). I've begun work on a letter I'd like read at whatever memorial service I get in the hope that most won't defile my memory.

That's how I handle stealth. It works for me. I hope anyone who chooses anonymity finds a way to make it work.

Quote from: Ritana on January 18, 2016, 01:17:16 AM
In a real straight guy's eyes, you are just a man pumped up with hormones and surgeries.

Why some men date post-op passable and openly trans girls? Why some of them ask for the op and wait until the girl has gone under the knife?

For those ones still in the closet and with no plans of coming out there's no point in dating somebody who's openly trans and post-op since this can lead people to raise suspicions, make questions and eventually uncover them as closeted bi/gay/whatever guys. Normally these men just marry a ciswoman in order to keep-up appearances and then live kind of a "double life" to fulfill their fantasies.

I think if a guy believes transgirls are just men pumped with hormones and surgeries the judgement it's not related to his sexual orientation but to his lack of understanding/knowledge about transsexualism. Same for girls. For example, I've seen lesbians who think transmen are women and transgirls are men. Same for gay boys. Same for bisexual folks. I can't see how being straight can lead someone to think that way.

If a straight guy understands what transsexualism is but refuses to date a trans girl due to fear of what people would say... well, I dunno what other girls would think, but that kind of insecure/coward behaviour shuts down my libido real quick

I agree with you. Transmen are men and transwomen are women. Unfortunately that's not how straight cis guys see it. I got hurt so many times that I decided not to disclose anymore. My last relationship lasted 2.5 years and he never knew (nor will he). I live my life just like any other girl. It's easier this way.

Yup, I think really most people (both genders, all orientations) don't understand it.

Quote from: Ritana on January 22, 2016, 01:40:03 PM
I agree with you. Transmen are men and transwomen are women. Unfortunately that's not how straight cis guys see it. I got hurt so many times that I decided not to disclose anymore. My last relationship lasted 2.5 years and he never knew (nor will he). I live my life just like any other girl. It's easier this way.

Sure, this is mostly true. But I'd maintain if a cis guy has a good heart there's a way to overcome that. You probably can't go the dating route at first, or even probably for quite awhile. You have to build a friendship to a point where he understands you deeply enough that the natural tendencies and stereotypes he has melt away and he can see the beautiful you unencumbered by the fog of prejudice.  Since your not starting out of the gate thinking about dating to attain a long-term committed relationship there's no need to start out talking about that you are trans first either., Not all people have prejudices because they are bad people - some have good hearts but are just ignorant. Never give up on finding true love, but sometimes you have to find it when you are not directly looking for it.

Love,
Denali

I admire those who have the courage and the ability to be open about it however I don't judge those who don't/can't.
Even though things are getting better there are many places where being open just isn't safe. None the less the article still holds a good point.

Quote from: DenaliBe on January 22, 2016, 02:52:47 PM
Sure, this is mostly true. But I'd maintain if a cis guy has a good heart there's a way to overcome that. You probably can't go the dating route at first, or even probably for quite awhile. You have to build a friendship to a point where he understands you deeply enough that the natural tendencies and stereotypes he has melt away and he can see the beautiful you unencumbered by the fog of prejudice.  Since your not starting out of the gate thinking about dating to attain a long-term committed relationship there's no need to start out talking about that you are trans first either., Not all people have prejudices because they are bad people - some have good hearts but are just ignorant. Never give up on finding true love, but sometimes you have to find it when you are not directly looking for it.

Love,
Denali

I totally agree with you, I'm just not prepared to take any risks. I find it works fine for me this way.

Quote from: Ritana on January 18, 2016, 01:17:16 AM
But no reputable surgeon would perform srs without a 2- year RLE.

First, the generally accepted standard is 1 year. Even less is accepted by quite a few surgeons.

Quote from: Ritana on January 18, 2016, 01:17:16 AM
In a real straight guy's eyes, you are just a man pumped up with hormones and surgeries.

Second, that is utter nonsense. It's a prejudice based on outdated heteronormative standards and it's a little bit transphobic as well. My real straight guy loves me like I'm the only woman on earth. Sorry if your experience isn't anything like that, but please don't spread disillusionment to other trans women who are hoping to have a quality relationship with a straight guy. Love from regular men for trans women happens all the time.

I suppose all we can do is talk from our own experiences. We are here to share perspectives and thoughts, not to fight so please let's respect each other's points of view and not use strong words. Let's agree to disagree in a healthy way.

I am a few years post op; have dated exclusively straight guys who had no clue about my past so I think my experience is far from being "not valid".

Many open minded straight guys are just not attracted to the idea of dating transexuals. It does not make them transphobic. It is a matter of personal preference that these guys prefer being with ciswomen. Yes. In an ideal world I wish this distinction didn't exist in their mind.  Sadly, that's not the case. I know it hurts but that's the harsh reality on the ground. Until things change, I continue not to disclose my past to my prospective boyfriends. Currently, I'm dating a guy, and things are going great! However, I am sure that things CAN ONLY go pair-shaped if I disclose, so I don't see why I should ruin thiings.

Rita

Regarding stealth, we all have opinions, and usually strong ones, but to be able to discuss it we need to respect that. I see how people are against stealth, and seeing other open trans people when I was younger was a huge thing, however for whatever reasons - all valid reasons - stealth is a preferable and often safer for the people who choose that route.


Personally, I am stealth to friends. Going into college, I would not be safe to be openly trans, a close friend was recently assaulted for being trans. The idea that people may question whether or not I am a man, or see me as less of one, is not something I am comfortable with. Maybe just paranoia, but something I can't live with.

I, for one, believe strongly that it's your choice, and everyone's circumstances are different.
We all have our reasons.

Quote from: Cindy on January 18, 2016, 01:22:09 AM
I would walk around in a T-shirt saying 'I came out as Transgender before it became popular'.

I'll buy one too . There's not many people who have fully experienced being both genders, it's a blessing.

It's an interesting question... If you had something in your past - for example you'd made some mistake - but you'd worked hard and were no longer that person - do you then have an ethical responsibility to tell every new person you meet? ... Your closest partner?

Why, if you're no longer that person?

If you pass well and have taken steps to delete your digital past (which is possible), is it a responsibility to tell people or is it none of their business?

I think there are only philosophical answers to this question.

For me personally I like to be able to relate experiences/stories from my past if I think it might help someone in the present. However that's not the only answer...

xox
sami

Quote from: Ritana on January 26, 2016, 04:04:46 AM
I suppose all we can do is talk from our own experiences. We are here to share perspectives and thoughts, not to fight so please let's respect each other's points of view and not use strong words. Let's agree to disagree in a healthy way.

Although I was brusque in my response I wouldn't say I used strong words. Yes, I was calling you out, and for good reason.

When you say "In a real straight guy's eyes, you are just a man pumped up with hormones and surgeries." that's an absolute statement. You are saying "this is how it is" and therefore you are ignoring and discounting experiences unlike yours. This is not helpful.

What is a "real straight guy"? This implies that a man who knowingly dates a trans woman must be something other than straight and thus wants to date someone who is a variation of a gay man. Is this what you think a trans woman is? My womanhood is not in doubt, nor is the heterosexuality of the man I date. A man who sees me as a man pumped up with hormones is, at best, uniformed and narrow-minded. That does not make him a "real straight guy".

My remark about transphobia was not about men. I was referring to what appears to be your own internalized transphobia. I know that sounds like an insult, but it is not - it's just an observation. It's fairly common, and it may have to do with your own unresolved issues about your transition and perhaps your as-yet-undefined idea of the role of trans women in society. I really don't know, and this is not the place for amateur psychoanalysis on my part. But deal with your stuff, and please don't make rules about other trans women's dating.

I don't personally agree with the perception of these straight guys (those date exclusively ciswomen) towards transwomen but that's the harsh reality on the ground. They prefer ciswomen, and I can't blame them for that or accuse them or those who tolerate  their approach of transphobia!! It seems like I hit a nerve there!

We all have different perspectives on the issue, and I am glad we do. That's the good thing about this website; otherwise, there would be no need to debate. Just because someone disagrees with me, or holds a different philosophy than mine doesn't mean I'm going to accuse them of having unresolved issues. On the contrary, they mybe stating a reality that I find hurtful.

As I previously said, being 100 stealth is a double edged sword. I chose to adopt this lifestyle, and so far I haven't had any issues whatsoever. I have had a few boyfriends, and my last relationship lasted almost 3 years. He still calls me and remembers me as a regular cis-girl (which is a blessing!) I enjoy being with a guy who cherishes my femininity without having to imagine me as a boy in my former life. I also don't have to explain myself or risk being stigmatised and rejected.