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I think our none USA members need info

Started by Cindy, January 29, 2016, 08:25:17 AM

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Serverlan

Trump as anti-establishmentarian? Lol. Which social, political, and/or economic conventions is trump railing against?
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Elis

Quote from: Serverlan on January 31, 2016, 02:32:13 AM
Trump as anti-establishmentarian? Lol. Which social, political, and/or economic conventions is trump railing against?

Rational thought and common sense.
They/them pronouns preferred.



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Colleen M

Quote from: Serverlan on January 31, 2016, 04:32:35 AM

Lol

Based on American budgetary history, I'd actually suggest that's one of the things he has in common with the establishment. 

But consider his reaction to Hillary's playing the gender card on him.  Calling her out on attacking all her husband's accusers was, to borrow Tucker Carlson's description of the Trump MO, "shocking, vulgar, and correct."  None of those things define your usual politician.  Consider that he is running as a conservative and doesn't really have any of what most conservatives would consider conservative bona fides.  He's been for most of the things conservatives are against at some point, it's almost painful to watch him respond to bible questions, and it was generally easy to write off a presidential run as a publicity stunt for quite a while in the process.  Particularly as he didn't seem to have a plan for much of anything as most of us define the word.  Heck, I'm not entirely sure his position on any issue whatsoever is long-standing.     

But the establishment hates him.  They sneer at him, belittle him, and mock his lack of experience.  Whether or not he deserves that is beside the point, the point is that the base of the American right believes that's the way the establishment views them.  The Republican base has, for example, a definite "limited government" leaning which would prefer the government just leave them alone as much as possible.  They'd be fairly happy if the government ran a military, dealt with other governments, and did some law enforcement with a heavy emphasis on border security...and nothing else.  Put aside whether they're right or wrong, and the same with the "social conservatives" or any other flavor of their base, and just worry about how the GOP politicians promise all these things to the base when campaigning:  Limited government, a fight against abortion and GLBT rights, an end to foreign aid, and so forth.  Then what happens when these elected representatives get to Washington?  They take the Chamber of Commerce's money, have a few dinners with Grover Norquist, get into an urban, sophisticated setting with cosmopolitan people...and decide that what's important is not rocking the boat, playing nice with the power and money brokers, and the closest they come to actually acting on their pledge to the limited government crowd is to cut taxes on the wealthy and essentially try to demonstrate that they can run a welfare state better than the left and we wind up with Medicare Part D or some such.  You don't have to agree with any of the GOP base's positions to see why they feel disenfranchised by their representatives, and are willing to overlook all of Trump's flaws for the sheer joy of shooting the bird at the guys they feel betrayed them.  And the more the establishment devotes issues of National Review to every reason Donald Trump is unacceptable to them, or Karl Rove editorializes on Trump's shortcomings, the more the base loves the guy.  The enemy of my enemy is my friend. 

And it's true that his immense personal wealth and history of moving among the political and financial elite make him part of an establishment, but not the hated GOP establishment (any more than the DNC).  Also, as one commentator put it, it's one thing for those of us on the outside to peer through the glass window at this establishment.  It's something else for a guy on the inside to throw a chair through that glass window.  It's the Teddy Roosevelt path to populism by a rich guy.  For a base which had Romney, McCain, Bush, and Dole rammed down their throats by the GOP power brokers who also saddled them with Boehner--and none of those guys are popular with the GOP base--then got to watch Hastert, Cunningham, Craig, and so forth arrested for things which really, really bother the base, they're mad enough that winning elections matters less to them than making a point.           

And that doesn't even involve both parties having an economic train wreck for the last 16 years making everybody question the genuine politicians.  Or that it's hardly limited to the right, as Bernie Sanders' insurgency proves.  Recent polling put the number of Americans who think the problem is politicians' inability to compromise at 50%, while 40% think the problem is politicians' inability to stand by their principles.  That means pretty much anybody with a political track record is going to tick off ~half the population no matter what he does.  And Trump, like the last guy to get elected President, doesn't really have much of a political track record.  It's unfortunate that this is a political asset rather than a liability, but that's the world we live in.       
When in doubt, ignore the moral judgments of anybody who engages in cannibalism.
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Colleen M

TL;DR version:  Worrying about Trump demonstrating his anti-establishment credibility is looking at it backwards.  The important part is that the GOP establishment is anti-Trump, and that's good enough for the base who really are anti-establishment. 
When in doubt, ignore the moral judgments of anybody who engages in cannibalism.
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rachel89

OK, it sounds like OP wants to know the intricacies of how presidents are chosen in the U.S. So the first thing is that the legal requirements are that a person must be a natural-born citizen (the meaning of "natural-born" has never been fully elucidated by the courts) be at least 35 years old and have lived in the U.S. for at least 14 years. That's the technical qualification for someone to be president. The political process and practical aspects are a little more complicated. The U.S. has a two-party political system. we have 3rd parties, but 3rd parties candidates are not elected for office very often and tend to be more ideological than either of the two parties. 3rd parties are a way that people sometimes express grievances with the political system when they aren't doing well, act as a "spoiler" in elections, or act as an ideological influence on the two parties. Additionally, there are caucuses which can act as a party within a party as a way to support a specific interest or version of party ideology.

One thing you have to keep in mind though is that a legal, highly formal system of bribery permeates the entire political process. This can make or break a candidate and determines who's interest they act in when there is a conflict of interest between the political donor class and the "average citizen." Even in the rare instances when the donor class loses a political battle, the loss will usually be mitigated in some way.

Back to the selection process. People who want to be president must get the support of party leadership, already have some money, get the approval of donors (which means getting donations), and get endorsements from various ideologues and king-makers, and various media outlets. This enables the candidates to run campaigns with expensive advertising and non-stop visits to different areas around the nation, particularly states that vote early in the primaries. The campaigns try to get voters registered in the candidates respective parties  to vote for them in the primary elections. The primaries are intra-party elections where voters who are party members (one becomes a party member simply by checking a box on the voter registration from) select the candidate that the entire party will stand behind and get party resources for the general election. However, the U.S. has low voter turnout in general elections and even lower turnout for primaries, meaning that people who vote in primaries are often strongly ideologically committed to a certain political outlook, sometimes to the point of extremism. The candidates must appeal to these voters by taking strongly ideological positions (reality, practicality, and legality be damned), stay in the good graces of party leaders, and receive continued support from the donor class (which has different priorities than the voters) to win the primary and receive continued support after the primary.

The timeline to U.S. elections goes something like this. Shortly after a presidential election, the losing party will begin quiet discussions about the next election and people who want to run will begin testing the waters to see if they have a chance, this intensifies after the midterm elections and people who want to run will indicate that they are considering a presidential run. From that point to a few months before primary season, lack of financial support, lack of voter interest, and scandal will narrow the field down to a few candidates. Right now we are at primary season, which starts this Tuesday and runs until June  (although a candidate emerges much sooner than that). After primary season, the delegates selected for the candidates in the primary elections will vote at the party's political convention shortly after primary season ends.

The winning candidates are now in the general election season. To win the general election, the candidates must appeal to a wider segment of the voting population, receive continued financial support, and still appeal to the party. More specifically, the candidates must persuade independents, low turn-out voters, and people not yet registered to vote for them in the general election. This is most important in swing states, these are states with a similar number of Democrat and Republican voters, and have a history of voting for both Republican and Democratic candidate over the last couple decades or where a candidate doesn't receive an overwhelming percentage of the vote. These are Florida, North Carolina, Virginia, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Colorado, and Nevada. Because most states are safe for a certain party, and only a handful of states are not safe for either party, a relatively small percentage of the population effectively decides the outcome of an election. In the election, people really vote for electors, who make up the electoral college, which actually votes for the president. Except for Maine and Nebraska, it is a winner-take-all system in each state.

Sometimes candidates can bypass the donor class and become serious contenders if they are self-funding or raise many small donations. These candidates run on a platform of economic, political, or cultural reform and come in both reactionary and progressive flavors and may or may not be members of either party and advocate for positions that are in conflict with the wishes of the donor class. This is basically the political phenomena of Trump and Sanders. These voters tend to believe the entire political system is corrupt and they have gotten a raw deal as a result of unholy alliances between far-away business, government, and sometimes cultural institutions. However progressives and reactionaries are different on what they see as the exact nature of the problem and what the solution to those problems are.   


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cindianna_jones

Yes, our political system is somewhat complicated and it favors candidates who are not necessarily the most qualified.

I believe the real problem is that we have uneducated voters. They vote for their religious ideals or the five second sound bite. Many actually think that the president makes policy and he or potentially she is the one responsible for the health of the country.

Very few of our population knows anything about foreign issues and conflicts much less laws under consideration by our Congress or Supreme Court.

We simply aren't interested. We follow inane memes on FaceBook and the incessant ads on television (I can't watch standard broadcast TV anymore) which debase issues or candidates without providing real substance. We follow like sheep based on ideology of our families or location where we live or by our minority/majority status or....  We vote our candidates into office on hate issues. Abortion, immigration, GLBT rights, birth control, welfare and others. We don't consider the ramifications of how our politicians will vote on important issues that will affect the nation's economy and our world standing. The bottom line is we just don't care enough to read about these issues or seek out information on candidates.

We are a lazy, selfish, self privileged people. We believe we are the most powerful and righteous country on Earth. Most of us believe that to be by God's decree.

That's my short version. I could go on for hours. I must point out that some of the most politically educated people are on THIS site. It's unfortunate that the rest of the populace can't or won't understand half of what has been presented so far.

Cindi
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