I really wish there was a like button for posts, there is a lot of good posts in this thread.

I don't think transistion is selfish. If transistion is selfish, taking painkillers are selfish too. You care about yourself for a better life that is worth to live and for better health. Even you just transistion because you, it's still not selfish. As long as you are kind and friendly to other people, it would be fine. I think we all should care about both parts, our self and other people. It's important to care about other people and be nice to them, but it's also important to care about yourself so you can live a good life. People who tell transgenders people transistion is selfish isn't better. Telling other what they should do or not to do in a rude way is mean. Telling other people they are selfish is mean. There aren't anything wrong with you. It's the people around you who choose a fundamentalist way to think. I don't say fundamentalists are always wrong, but I'm often disagree with them.

Quote from: BlindCourage on February 03, 2016, 01:40:33 PM

At the end of the day, you have to decide what you can live with a be happy. Can you be happy not fully transitioning in order to save your marriage? Can you give that a go for a little while to see if it works for you and your family? The option to fully transition isn't going to disappear if you explore other avenues first.

Our problem is slightly more difficult... I guess. Even if I would not fully transition to female, my wife still has big issues as I see myself as a female no matter how far I will go and she is 100% heterosexual so she will always see a woman in me no matter how I present myself which would make her a lesbian so I see no option at this time that could save our marriage but we're working on transforming our marriage into a friendship...

Why is life so complicated and confusing??

-Jessie

Quote from: JessicaSondelli on February 03, 2016, 03:03:32 PM
Our problem is slightly more difficult... I guess. Even if I would not fully transition to female, my wife still has big issues as I see myself as a female no matter how far I will go and she is 100% heterosexual so she will always see a woman in me no matter how I present myself which would make her a lesbian so I see no option at this time that could save our marriage but we're working on transforming our marriage into a friendship...

Why is life so complicated and confusing??

-Jessie

I understand Jessie. My wife is 100% heterosexual and despises any conversation of woman on woman(Believe me I have tried to probe her in the past by watching lesbian videos to gauge her reaction). I've known since I was kid that I was different, just realized how I was different too late to spare her from marrying me. She isn't happy sexually, but we both are from traditional families and stick it out for that reason.

Dana

People nowadays are entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... I don't see how it's selfish to transition, since transition is for the want of these things. If everyone else has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and that is not considered selfish of them but acceptable for all, then people who whine about someone's transition being selfish are only doing so because they're annoyed or inconvenienced by it. In the end, changing yourself is the only true freedom we have in this world, because we can't really change the world itself. Only ourselves. If that is selfish, then screw this world and its values... I'll be selfish then and I don't care.

Quote from: Mavis on February 03, 2016, 02:14:05 PM
I really wish there was a like button for posts, there is a lot of good posts in this thread.

I totally second that!!


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Quote from: Adchop on February 03, 2016, 03:40:06 PM
I understand Jessie. My wife is 100% heterosexual and despises any conversation of woman on woman(Believe me I have tried to probe her in the past by watching lesbian videos to gauge her reaction). I've known since I was kid that I was different, just realized how I was different too late to spare her from marrying me. She isn't happy sexually, but we both are from traditional families and stick it out for that reason.

Dana

But honestly, I prefer a great friendship over a miserable marriage. I still love my wife but I rather keep her as a good friend where both sides can find their piece of happiness...


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Are we selfish because we eat 2-3 times a day, when we could survive on one? Are we selfish in working out and spending that time and money on something as selfish as body shape, looks etc? Are selfish when we exercise our mind by reading a book or watching a movie, these are not necessary to survive. Are we selfish when we want to have an orgasm during intimacy?

Part of being a good person for others in your life is also taking care of yourself, and having those loved ones hold your interests high in importance. Indeed, you could only really do a good job in looking out for their interests if you are also taken care of in turn. It's a symbiotic circle. Sure there are seasons for very intense selflessness, but as a whole we always come back to ourselves.

What she is really saying is " You want to change, i don't want you to - so i expect you will not change for me" That is unrealistic as all people change, some dramatic and some subtle. The other person's choice is to change with them, support them, ignore it all or move along to some other place.

Quote from: JessicaSondelli on February 03, 2016, 06:04:18 PM
But honestly, I prefer a great friendship over a miserable marriage. I still love my wife but I rather keep her as a good friend where both sides can find their piece of happiness...


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All our paths are different. Each of us is responsible for finding our own way to peace.

If you & your wife can be friends, that sounds like a good start.

My wife is a jealous woman, which is why I'm sure she couldn't handle me being honest with her. She would want nothing to do with just being friends.

Too, too often someone who accuses you of being selfish is really saying "I want what I want and you won't give it to me." They're being selfish.... Hmm, I guess I'm feeling cynical today.

Quote from: Ms Grace on January 29, 2016, 09:04:38 PM
Short answer. Yes.

Transition is one of the most selfish things we can do - we are doing it for no one else other than ourselves, our sanity, our peace of mind. But you know what? That is OK. And who knows, when we have transitioned and become ourselves and are better able to function in society and contribute better to it because of that then maybe it will turn out we weren't so "selfish" after all.

It sounds like your wife is confusing your need to transition with some nefarious deception and/or random lifestyle choice. The sense of deception and betrayal is common with SOs whose partners come out as trans. A lot of them say their partner should have told them before marriage, or before children and sure, they have reasonable grounds to expect transparency, but they often can't or won't see or understand why we keep it to ourselves as a shameful, fearful secret...until we no longer can.

So yes we are selfish, but not for the reasons others imagine.

I'm very disagree with you. Transistion isn't selfish, it's about taking care of yourself. Is eating selfish, is using painkillers selfish, is having fun selfish? I don't see it as selfish. It's important to care about people around you, but it's also important to care about yourself so you can be happy, and survive. Some people take medicine to survive and live a life with better quality. Is they selfish too?

In my opinion being selfish is being greedy, just thinking at yourself and make other people suffer/give people pain. If you balance these elements: thinking sometimes at yourself and sometimes at other people around you, I don't consider you selfish. That means you care about other people and are kind, but also want to live a happy life. I think transistion isn't the most selfish thing we can do, because for me it's not selfish. Killing, stealing, greediness, don't care and make people suffering is the most selfishness thing we humans can do. I don't get it why you see transistion as selfish, but I respect your opinion.

I am not selfish. I am in transition to be happier person. I did not hurt any one, just need acceptance by my family, friend and society. That not much to ask.

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Is breathing selfish? How about needing food on a regular basis? Clothing? Shelter? Affection?

Guess I'm guilty. But I'm okay with that. Offing myself would, in my view, be rather more selfish.

Thomas

Not that I think this is a hugely important issue, unless on an individual or group basis the actions therein are harmful to oneself or others.

____________________

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish
Merriam‑Webster
1 : concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others. 2 : arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act> ... She's interested only in ...
____________________

It's quite possible to be selfish and still avoid being as apposed to judged as <bad, evil, scheming, . . . etc.>  Of course, ones POV has a lot to do with how and from where one judges another, and for the record generally I find the act of being judged distasteful regardless of the outcome. 

If as trans-folk we can give up the paradigm of right and wrong associated with our condition, then we become free see for what it actually is in all various aspects over time.  Being trans is as powerful, whole and complete state of the human condition as one can imagine if there's no right/wrong and/or good/bad associated with it; rather, it simply is.  This includes all those folks who aren't trans and cling to the r/w and/or g/b and how we as trans community members respond to them. 

This doesn't excuse them (or us) for behaving poorly or even judging for that matter, but it does say something about the discourse occurring about/for/of transgender of humanity's more base frailties set against permitting a generative social commons that lifts us all as a species.

So, yes . . . it's fine to be selfish when a degree of focus and commitment is necessary to create/protect life that generates full self-expression, freedom, and power including without fear for doing so.   Indeed, this demands that there are times when the needs of the one do out weigh the needs of the many . . . it's often difficult for the many in those times (and the one as we so often find), but that does not make the matter somehow subject justified in and deserving of spurious judgements when something so fundamental as "self" is at stake.  For if we don not know ourselves then who do we know?

Take care all and may we all have love and self-awareness in abundance,

Rachel

QuoteMerriam‑Webster
1 : concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others. 2 : arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act> ... She's interested only in ...

well then if you are married with children then coming out is selfish, as I have been told I should have taken being trans to the grave. I am told that there is no follow ups to children in their adult years on the psychological damage caused by their parent being trans. My father in law says he would have taken it to the grave if it was him to protect his wife and kids mental anguish. My wife says she would suffer to protect her children. Now I am stuck feeling like I cannot transition because doing so would mean that I care more about myself then my children and wife.

p.s. my mother says her neighbor came out as trans to his two sons in their teens and they never grew up, still living in parents garage as hermits now in their 30's

From the Oxford Dictionary:

(Of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure:

So the question is are you doing this for profit or pleasure. 

I don't think doing something for one's health, physical or mental, is selfish at all.

The problem isn't in selfishness.  The problem is that most other people refuse to see this for what it is.  It's akin to if you had epilepsy in the days before modern medicine.  If someone came from the future and offered you a medicinal cure, for a price, you would be called selfish for spending money your family could use.  Because everybody knows the real cause is demons and you can get an exorcism for free.

Actually this is worse because generally lacking external symptoms people just deny its existence altogether.  Most lack the intellectual curiosity and empathy necessary to understand or accept anything outside their own personal sphere of experience.


Sapere Aude

nicely put!

Dear Mavis:

Without taking anything away from what you said for I'm sure it's pretty accurate, the argument you are making is a false equivalence.  First, it's easy to say what one would do when there aren't any real consequences in doing so; second, embedded in the argument is an evaluation without any evidence that you are worth less than . . .; and third, it's prejudicial given the position being taken by those who don't have to take a position that confronts their own personal well-being, i.e. it would be better to take "it" to your grave.  Until you or them have looked into the abyss, neither you nor they are informed enough to make such comments; and this is not a recommendation to take a look.  From personal experience, it doesn't end well however it ends.

I'm not arguing here with you.  I agree, YOU ARE BEING SELFISH and there are times when that's the only logical thing to do . . . this is one of them.  This may land poorly with you now, but you are a good person too with all the rights and pursuits we all should have . . . being trans does not change that, even if we wish it did.  It just makes us suffer from existential guilt.

Take care and tanks for posting,

Rachel

I'm sorry to sound depressing here, but anyone who wants to guilt trip me by saying that my transitioning is hurting them or others who love me really has two choices. Either they get their feelings hurt by watching me transition or they get to deal with the far worse alternative of dealing with my suicide (yes, I have stood at the edge of that cliff before). I know that isn't something every trans person faces, but there are other consequences besides that which make the threat of selfishness seem petty.

Quote from: JessicaSondelli on January 29, 2016, 08:43:45 PM
My wife - I came out to her just a few weeks ago - keeps calling me a selfish person because I finally decided to transition. She also told me that fathering our children was a grossly negligent act while knowing I was trans....

Dropping the t-bomb on a partner often turns their world upside down and I really do feel for them, but does that make you selfish? No, but it is terribly unfortunate that many of us didn't disclose our trans status prior to building a life with someone. I'm guilty of this, and it caused a lot of damage. Before marriage, I had not disclosed my feelings to anyone, and I thought I could live with it being my little secret forever. Besides, in the early stages of the relationship, the dysphoria was manageable. Back then, I didn't fully understand why I felt the way I did, and I had no idea that the dysphoria would gradually intensify to such an extent that it completely overwhelmed my coping mechanisms; It was literally sucking the life out of me! Had I known then what I know now, of course I would've told her beforehand.

If only the internet was around back then...