This has been prompted by several threads on here: from the official 'you look fabulous darling,' through to being called 'sir,' to those depressed that they don't feel they can always pass as a woman in public. The same arguments apply for FtM.

I was thinking again about our gender binary western societies and how both those and the RLE requirements are heavily centred on 'looking' like this or that gender. This raises all sorts of issues. It's fabulous for those who convincingly pull it off when they step out. In the case of MtF's the first time you're called 'Ms' or told you look gorgeous will be amazing. But the chances are that for most MtF's and probably FtM's we're still going to get stares. This can be really depressing. I know that recently I've wondered if I can do this at my age. A friend even wrote to me and said: 'if you were twenty years younger you could pull it off.'

But wait. What is this all about? Are we really falling into a trap here of letting gender be decided by how we look? What puts off some people from transitioning is precisely because they're not sure they can be 'convincing.' They fear, very understandably, what others may think and even say. Stepping out takes courage.

I often mention Thailand but it's not alone in having a third gender, a transitioning gender. I mention this because although the kathoey (ladyboy) industry is often connected to sex trade, behind it there is a long history of third gender experience that isn't associated with that trade. Boys from a pre-pubescent age have often begun transitioning and if you go around Thailand you soon realise that there are many people living in neither pigeon holed male nor female stereotypes. I found this incredibly liberating a while back when I was beginning the process. I would wear a mixture of attire that would leave me un-pigeonholed. Sometimes I'd wear makeup but leave my hair. It didn't matter one bit.

Western societies make gender either male or female. I wonder if our situation would be a whole lot easier if there was a recognised third gender? A trans gender. Perhaps then, instead of heads turning and people asking 'is she?' we might move away from the looks obsessed approach and let people get on with expressing how they want to be. Of course, it's really important for many of those transitioning to claim their gender identity but if society was less gender binary would looks matter less?

I believe that the "looks matter" dilemma stems from people not wanting to be included in that 3rd gender. As Trans is not either male or female, but a combination of the two. As many people as there are in the world, there are as many different ways that they will wish to be viewed; or lack thereof. To some, it will always matter. While to others, none of it matters. The world loves a label, man has been labeling things since the inception of the word.

The freedom experienced from the indifference on the streets in cultures that find the condition common place and socially accepted, may still cause discontent for some while in conversations with individuals who see them as Trans and not women/men.

One step further, not everyone that passes for their identified gender wishes to stay anonymous. They voice their pride. Others prefer a quiet position on the subject of their sex and pray for it not to be brought up in their lifetime.

The only answer to the dilemma is self acceptance. A very difficult task by the very definition of the condition. We did not accept our bodies, we did not accept our social roles, and we did not accept that we could do nothing about it. By nature we push for what we want, never accepting that we cannot be ourselves.

If I can add any more contradictions to the madness that is life, please let me know.

Quote from: Richenda on February 04, 2016, 01:14:58 AM


Western societies make gender either male or female. I wonder if our situation would be a whole lot easier if there was a recognised third gender? A trans gender. Perhaps then, instead of heads turning and people asking 'is she?' we might move away from the looks obsessed approach and let people get on with expressing how they want to be. Of course, it's really important for many of those transitioning to claim their gender identity but if society was less gender binary would looks matter less?

I honestly don't think that would be possible.  It wouldn't eliminate the  "is she , is he" question because people will still wonder what gender you are.  They would wonder if you are a male or a female  then assume you are trans because something is off and being trans is more known then before now with media  ( this is actually what happens when someone isnt passing ...)  You want to be identified as the gender you present yourself  which is either male or female .. and that's how people see you.


btw i hate when someone says i am Trans... this is like if someone was saying  you are black, you are chinese... to identify(categorize) someone. I AM FEMALE thats it..   This shouldnt happen anymore the day you decide to present yourself as a specific gender ( not androgynous or in transition mode) .  You are done with transition so.. you are the gender you are after transition..   Wich is a Men or a Women

Quote from: Richenda on February 04, 2016, 01:14:58 AM
Are we really falling into a trap here of letting gender be decided by how we look?

Yes and no.

No because gender is between the ears really, and no man, woman or child can revoke or deny that privilege.  That part is pretty cut and dry.  Our self-identification is what led us here more or less, y'know?

Yes because, in society, looks are everything... absolutely everything and I could defend this stance all day and night.  Key words here are [in society] of course.  A transgender person's look and passibility are crucial to a normal, stress-free, happy and safe existence.  If looks matter not, why hormones?  Why surgeries?  To align the inner with the outer; and is very much the 'raison d'être'.  I'm a shallow person but it's not because I'm shallow that I say these things; I say this because it is reality.  We are judged and treated based on how we look, not to mention it's literally a safety issue by being passable.

My endocrinologist has a ton of trans patients obv, and I asked him one time:  Do you find that there is a correlation between your patient's happiness and passability?  He replied, "Without question".

Richenda, I would gladly sign up yearly for a world where we were all treated as equals regardless of looks.  Regardless of how passable one may or may not be.  How beautiful a world that would be ^_^  It's just not reality though.

One thing I thought of: It's basically a punchline, but you may have heard the expression on the net "I identify as an attack helicopter".  You can look it up if you never heard that phrase... it's basically poking fun at all of us as well as other people who identify as furries, bronies, demi-sexuals or other such alternate self-expressions/self-identifications.  Regardless of how stupid it is (which it totally is), I bring it up because my opinion is that anyone can identify as anything that they wish and I truly from the bottom of my heart think that's totally wonderful!  Unless you actually look like an attack helicopter, however, I wouldn't expect positive results to be treated like an attack helicopter.  We all identify as female (specific because of your post origin, MTF sub) in our hearts, minds and souls, but if we do not convincingly look the part, society will treat us differently, and often times negatively at that.

Quote from: Richenda on February 04, 2016, 01:14:58 AMif society was less gender binary would looks matter less?

In my opinion no, because people would still be judged by the way they look, cis or trans, it matters not.  I mean, pretty cis girls are judged and treated differently than unattractive cis girls which has nothing to do with gender; just looks.  This has been proven various times in various social experiments.  What this is is a human condition, not a transgender condition, and no amount of social progress will change human nature.

Lastly,

Quote from: Richenda on February 04, 2016, 01:14:58 AM
I know that recently I've wondered if I can do this at my age. A friend even wrote to me and said: 'if you were twenty years younger you could pull it off.'

You can do it.  Don't ever let anyone tell you differently.

Quote from: archlord on February 04, 2016, 09:22:25 AM
btw i hate when someone says i am Trans... this is like if someone was saying  you are black, you are chinese... to identify(categorize) someone. I AM FEMALE thats it..

Your post went through first as I was typing mine, but this quote got me thinking too: NOBODY has EVER asked me "How long have you known that you're a woman?"  All I hear is, "How long have you known that you're trans?"  The question isn't coming from uninformed, insensitive bigots either... the people are genuine and coming from a genuine place.

It sucks a big fat one to no end, but no one thinks of us as women unless they don't know, and the very second someone knows they then think of us as trans, not women.

Funny; I'm guilty of this myself come to think of it... damn it, I'm a horrible person.

Quote from: Ⓥ on February 04, 2016, 09:54:50 AM

Funny; I'm guilty of this myself come to think of it... damn it, I'm a horrible person.

You might simply ask for how long people knew they identify as women, and see it that way.


hugs

There are so many wonderful responses above, on which I've been mulling and will continue to. I just want to pose the following for now and do so in heartfelt peace. I've been wrestling with this for ages.

In the west we're so conditioned by the idea of two genders that it's sometimes hard to consider the inadequacies of it. I know it really matters to some MtF's to go big and bold that they're F. And equally I know it's incredibly important for many FtM's to assert that they're M. So, no offence to anyone in that position: all power to you. But I'm sorry I just don't think gender is that simple. For me there's a humungously mahoooosive grey between the binary poles that's neither 'M' nor 'F.' In Thailand they are so so used to a recognised third gender, the kathoeys, that it makes it fabulously liberating, at least I find, for anyone else. I can step out in whatever I like, looking however I want, and no-one gives two hoots. So that's not just about me being bold and having self-belief, it's also about society recognising, I think correctly, that gender's complex and if you want to be other than M or F ... well you can be. I do want to ask actually what those of you reading this think of kathoeys? Where do you place them? Do you find them threatening?

The other alternative to introducing a third gender is to do away with all genders. What's the point of them anyway? Why do we need to define humans by these kinds of labels?

Quote from: Ⓥ on February 04, 2016, 09:54:50 AM
Your post went through first as I was typing mine, but this quote got me thinking too: NOBODY has EVER asked me "How long have you known that you're a woman?"  All I hear is, "How long have you known that you're trans?"  The question isn't coming from uninformed, insensitive bigots either... the people are genuine and coming from a genuine place.

It sucks a big fat one to no end, but no one thinks of us as women unless they don't know, and the very second someone knows they then think of us as trans, not women.

Funny; I'm guilty of this myself come to think of it... damn it, I'm a horrible person.

I get that same question fairly often. I really just want to be acknowledged as female like any other. Instead i have to go through some sort of "the explanation"

Hiya Richenda,

Why ask why?  This culture is our home.  These trials and tribulations are simply part of what it means to be born and bred into Western Civilization.  Sure, maybe it would be great if we could "introduce" a third gender, and a fourth, and maybe even a twentieth.  And while we're at it, every citizen who reaches the age of 65 could have a comfortable place to live and his or her every need catered to, meals, free transportation, all honors and every courtesy.  But I have to wonder: at what point in this wishful thinking process does the rubber meet the road?

Disassociating ourselves from the way things are by wishing that things were different cannot serve us in any way.  What might serve us is to make a clear minded, sober analysis of how gender is presently manifesting in our culture, evidenced by how the perceived "least" within the gender hierarchy are treated, and then brainstorm a plan for how to improve the situation by degrees, and maybe even implement that plan.

Wishful thinking and 5 bucks might get you a cup of coffee (well, maybe not at Starbucks), but if what we want is to make the world a nicer place for gender non-binary folks of every description, what we need is a clear desire, a plan of action, and enough faith to put our plans into motion.

Don't we?

Much Love,
Miharu