Hi girls,

I don't want to go around the houses too much with this one. I've had a proposal from Mark Remacle in Luxembourg and I am having conversations via email with Janet Wilson, she's located in Newcastle in the UK and she also does wendler glottoplasty, except she uses scalpels like Dr Kim @ Yeson instead of laser. The conversation with her has been slow but I am just waiting for one last email from her after sending her a sound clip.

Price wise they should be similar. Im pretty much decided on having the procedure even though my voice has always been a big plus for me with passability, there's always that odd cough that doesn't sound as feminine, and I feel like my relaxed voice sounds like that nasally unnatural voice that some tend to have. I would like to just feel more natural and not worry about my voice getting more tired with time and risk it giving me more dysphoria with age.

I'll be posting sound clips along with this post. Any advice from any girls who started with a preop voice similar to mine would be a HUGE PLUS, but of course all advice is welcome whatever your preop voice. Part of me is hoping that the fact I don't have a deep voice now would mean I could have a more unmistakeable feminine voice by having that little push.

Here's my relaxed at home voice preop clip

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0JJZOr0V4KD

And here's a clip of my more public preop voice if you will:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0VFW0RgSVza

I am happy to get feedback on my voice as it is now, but really I am kind of wondering what y'all think if I could get some positive results with wendler glottoplasty.

Judging from your recordings. You don't need surgery.

I agree with the above post.  Unless creating this voice is causing you pain or takes a lot of effort, surgery is not necessary.  You sound unquestionably female already   

Of course, the choice is yours but I think you sound great as is.  If your main concern is nasality, surgery will not correct that but speech therapy can.

I have to agree with the others, your voice should pass easily without surgery. Do not worry too much about the odd cough here and there which does not sound perfect.
Surgery can give you a nice confidence boost because just knowing that you cannot make those not very feminine sounds anymore is a huge plus in itself and experiencing it is another great thing according to the gals who recovered from surgery.
I can totally understand that you want even better than what you have and surgery would probably give you that but I think you should only do it if you feel that you cannot live without it.

I appreciate the comments girls. Like I've said I did realise I always had a head start on many with my voice since early on in my transition. And I will keep considering wether this is right for me or not.


,

Quote from: Lynne on February 09, 2016, 04:42:42 PM

Surgery can give you a nice confidence boost because just knowing that you cannot make those not very feminine sounds anymore is a huge plus in itself and experiencing it is another great thing according to the gals who recovered from surgery.
I can totally understand that you want even better than what you have and surgery would probably give you that but I think you should only do it if you feel that you cannot live without it.

These are the very reasons I am considering Wendler Glottoplasty. I couldn't have expressed it better myself!

My reasons for undergoing vfs were similar. Apparently, after years of using an elevated voice, it becomes almost like second nature to the point that even when we speak normally, we subconsciouly strain to a degree. This can be detrimental to our vocal chords in the long run.

This issue was explained to me by Dr Kim. Apparently, there is about 40 hrtz between a trained voice and a relaxed one. Most of his patients have around 10 to 20 hrtz difference max, which always leads him to creating a "statistical estimation"  of the relaxed average pitch.

My issue was that, although my voice was already feminine,  I wanted a 100% female voice even when I caugh or sneeze accidentally. At 170hrtz, my relaxed voice was in the lower female range but I was never content with my voice, and it caused me a big dysphoria.

Quote from: Ritana on February 11, 2016, 02:30:31 PM
My reasons for undergoing vfs were similar. Apparently, after years of using an elevated voice, it becomes almost like second nature to the point that even when we speak normally, we subconsciouly strain to a degree. This can be detrimental to our vocal chords in the long run.

This issue was explained to me by Dr Kim. Apparently, there is about 40 hrtz between a trained voice and a relaxed one. Most of his patients have around 10 to 20 hrtz difference max, which always leads him to creating a "statistical estimation"  of the relaxed average pitch.

My issue was that, although my voice was already feminine,  I wanted a 100% female voice even when I caugh or sneeze accidentally. At 170hrtz, my relaxed voice was in the lower female range but I was never content with my voice, and it caused me a big dysphoria.

Your story sounds exactly like what I'm going through. There feels like there's definite straining and my vocal chords feel tired after years of having transitioned, but that happens when I'm using no effort just my normal voice at home too. Your comment has definitely answered that for me.

Did the odd feeling of straining when speaking normally diminish after your surgery? Did the post op voice reach your expectations? I feel like I'm not asking for much, considering where my voice is now, for it to be 100% female all the time, but it would still make a big difference for me... Your post is pretty much confirming what I was hoping would be true. So thanks for that

Just to add on to what I posted previously, I also went into surgery in a similar situation with a voice that passed most of the time and I simply wanted this surgery to remove even the slightest doubt and give me total security.  However, I'm now at 4 months after the procedure and my voice is still a scratchy mess.  The first two months I could barely get any sound out.  I wanted this surgery so that I could blend in and avoid unwanted attention and so far this surgery has caused me all sorts of unwanted attention because I sound so awful.  Now, there is still a good chance that everything will work itself out and my voice will start to normalize, but would I go through all of this again if I could do it over?  Probably not.  I say this not to scare you, 90% of the patient stories I've read here and other places end up healing much better and much faster, but I wish someone had warned me about the potential complications.  Before surgery I would personally have graded my voice an A- and I was looking for A+.  Even if I achieve the A+ in the next few months, I don't think the stress and inability to effectively communicate for what will probably be half a year or more made it worth it for me.  Just trying to spread information and I wish you the best of luck if you decide to have the procedure

Consider that many girls here would love to have that which you seem so willing to possibly toss away in a gamble. No body is saying it so I will, DON'T DO IT!

Elaine

Yes Calicarly, I think I have achieved what I wanted, although it has been 5 weeks only since my surgery, and my voice still sounds a bit hoarse.

Just to add that years of -subconsciouly- straining have caused my vocal chords to have what we call a vocal tremor, which is the abnormal vibration of vocal chords، making the sound of the voice sound slightly uneven (this can be analysed by a doctor when you produce the sound "aaaaa" for 10 seconds. Dr. Kim said he sees this in the vast majority in his trans patients. Vocal tremor also happens in  some young biological guys during puberty. Those who find the transition into adulthood and the voice changes that come along with it hard to accept, so they strain to achieve a higher pitch (which is generally associated with younger adults). A biologival man has a range between 80-160 hz, a biological female 160-  250. And a baby 250-500 hz.

A vocal tremor is a serious damage to the vocal chords. In the long terms, it makes the voice hoarse and the vocal chords unable to close evenly, which in turn makes it more difficult/ impossible to achieve a high pitch. I am not saying you have a vocal tremor, but just consider straining in your decision to undertake vfs.

Another point to consider is that with age, our voices (whether men or women) get deeper, and achieving a higher pitch becomes more difficult.

Last, but not least, vfs doesn't only change your voice pitch but it also changes its timber making it more feminine. Example: you can find a man and a woman with the same pitch ( say in the gender neutral zone 160-180 hz). However, their differenciated voice timber (and their inflection) will make them sound man and woman. It the the same difference  obdeved between a guitar sound and a piano's both at the same notes. Voice timber is what gives our voice its uniqueness and helps determines gender (in addition to other factors of course)

Just bear in mind that vfs can be very challenging. Although it's been the least painful surgery I've had, not being able to speak for a whole month , supressing post op caughs (generated by phlegm), following a strict diet if no alcohol, coffee, spicy/fatty foods, chocolate for 3 months can be very challenging. I found it very frustrating the fact that si couldn't talk for so long (in my case I'm giving it 2 months rest).

Best of luck whatever you decide.

Rita

To be honest I did not found it so hard to follow the instructions from Dr.  Haben.  Two weeks of voice rest,  one month without alcohol and so on. I thought it would be harder. I got a cold or two and had to cough a lot.  Bit this did no damage.

My advice is do it!  It means so much freedom never to think again about your voice when you speak,  have sex and so on. It just takes time, at least six months until your new voice is there and everything is healed.

As a standard practice, Dr kim recommends one month of voice rest,  3 months alcohol-free, two months of no chocolate, no caffeine, fizzy drinks, no nuts, no fatty or spicy food. Yeson method is obviously different to Dr. Haben's.

The difference between Dr Kim and Haben is the same difference between Wilson and Remacle, Wilson uses a technique similar to Kim, she uses scalpels, Haben and Remacle use laser and use non permanent stitches. I guess the main difference is Remacle and Wilson are not as well known, but that's just due to the simple fact that Europeans tend to (not all) be more reserved and therefore less likely to discuss anything online. A little bit paranoid I think, lol. And Wilson admittedly doesn't have as much experience with thousands of patients like Kim. I would be willing to go to Kim or Haben if something jumped out at me like I must absolutely go to them but so far, apart from more publicity I don't see a reason to go so far so I am considering closer options, even then, I haven't ruled out making the trip to one of them!

In regards to recovery, I am not too worried, although my job does involve a lot of talking, I can take the time off if necessary. I am just 2 weeks from my GRS also and if I could combine some of the later recovery from GRS with voice recovery then I could shave off  some time off if I had the recoveries completely separate. But what I do appreciate is that I am getting honest words about the lengthy recovery...

Kwala and Elaine I can assure you I will not go through with this unless I feel absolutely comfortable with it.

Quote from: Ritana on February 13, 2016, 02:14:00 AM
Just to add that years of -subconsciouly- straining have caused my vocal chords to have what we call a vocal tremor, which is the abnormal vibration of vocal chords، making the sound of the voice sound slightly uneven (this can be analysed by a doctor when you produce the sound "aaaaa" for 10 seconds. Dr. Kim said he sees this in the vast majority in his trans patients. Vocal tremor also happens in  some young biological guys during puberty. Those who find the transition into adulthood and the voice changes that come along with it hard to accept, so they strain to achieve a higher pitch (which is generally associated with younger adults). A biologival man has a range between 80-160 hz, a biological female 160-  250. And a baby 250-500 hz.

A vocal tremor is a serious damage to the vocal chords. In the long terms, it makes the voice hoarse and the vocal chords unable to close evenly, which in turn makes it more difficult/ impossible to achieve a high pitch. I am not saying you have a vocal tremor, but just consider straining in your decision to undertake vfs.

Another point to consider is that with age, our voices (whether men or women) get deeper, and achieving a higher pitch becomes more difficult.

Last, but not least, vfs doesn't only change your voice pitch but it also changes its timber making it more feminine. Example: you can find a man and a woman with the same pitch ( say in the gender neutral zone 160-180 hz). However, their differenciated voice timber (and their inflection) will make them sound man and woman. It the the same difference  obdeved between a guitar sound and a piano's both at the same notes. Voice timber is what gives our voice its uniqueness and helps determines gender (in addition to other factors of course)

Just bear in mind that vfs can be very challenging. Although it's been the least painful surgery I've had, not being able to speak for a whole month , supressing post op caughs (generated by phlegm), following a strict diet if no alcohol, coffee, spicy/fatty foods, chocolate for 3 months can be very challenging. I found it very frustrating the fact that si couldn't talk for so long (in my case I'm giving it 2 months rest).

Best of luck whatever you decide.

Rita

Rita the more you mention these issues the more I feel like that's EXACTLY me. I have been transitioned 7 years, have had nothing but pride on my voice and didn't really think I needed anything done to it until now. I don't feel like glottoplasty would be gambling with it as much as leaving the straining that seems to happen even when I'm not talking at all, and when I speak with my relaxed voice. I don't achieve my voice with much effort, it feels to me more like its the amount of time that has strained me. What you mention explains this perfectly, almost like after years, the vocal chords are constantly ready for very trained speaking and that strains them right?

I definitely need to have an appointment with one of the Drs and find out if there's  tremor. imteresting to find out that the surgery also changes the timbre..

I am like you, for years and years my voice never seemed to cause me dysphoria (I am a few years Post-op). I used to work in a call centre where I was talking thousands of calls a year.My voice passed all the time. Only twice during the several years of my call centre work did my voice get questioned by two callers as to whether I was a man or a woman (I was one those moments when i was really tired and I spoke with my chest voice). Still, no one ever Sirred me. In addition to that, I was never comfortable with my caugh and I always forced myself to cry quietely (voiceless cry), whenever I had to cry. Dysphoria can be very painful, whether it's a body dysphoria or a voice one!

I suppose if you just need that little push to be totally comfortable then glottoplasty would be your best option. Your voice already sounds feminine, vfs will probably make it unmistakably female without any straining whatsoever.

That is my honest opinion based on my personal experience.

Both voice clips sound good and feminine. If you have a different voice when you do not watch ist or if you do something odd, are relaxed, drunk ... whatever - maybe you could do a recording of the worst case scenario voice, so we could understand why you want surgery.

Regarding crying - I cannot be sure because I can hardly ask anyone about this now, but to me, I did at least not feel odd in the past days when I cried so much - I think I felt no dysphoria with my "post op crying", which probably would have been different before. but then again, who cares about the voice in those moments that are horrible anyways. many women sound very weird when they make uncontrolled noises.

calicarly:

Please know my comments are from a point of wishing the best possible for any of us having to sort our lives out as we need to. Your voice clips sound SO good that is my point, that there is a degree of risk to that.

I do understand you and Ritana regarding the long term adjustment to your voice. Not having to think at all about the voice is very reassuring and stress relieving. Been there and lived that for a long time. I am certain it is likely cause of vocal fold asymmetry as we have to work to counter our given voice's tonal qualities.

There are many very to wildly successful reviews so at times it can seem to make the odds of not having a sub optimal result less. I am not sure how many that are in the less than successful category write about their experiences. It was done in my case because others before helped out by making their stories available for others to weigh against their own needs. Another data point for other girls to consider...

As others too here recovering from VFS, my voice is still healing. It will likely be 3-4 months or so before the final result is know. That on top of a previous 7 month recovery to a unsuccessful surgery. That hurt the most. Time. We are the experts of our bodies. At times it is frustrating to have to wait an interminable amount of time to fix that which we know is broken, but Doctors won't listen to their own patients.

On a daily basis the only near certainty is I can speak for what ever interval I need. I appreciate your comment about not going through with VFS unless you feel certain. I am truly glad to hear that. I am most sincere about that, not just saying hollow words. You are thinking and not getting swept away with the process. Also, the idea of VFS near post GRS to combine times of recovery is good thinking. Time is a finite, precious resource that needs to carefully conserved and thoughtfully spent. It IS the currency of our lives, after all.

Whatever you choose, I wish you my best in your choices and also in your upcoming GRS. I do know how one looks forward to getting on the other side of that. I sincerely hope your recovery is smooth and rapid process.

Be safe, hug's and happiness.

Elaine'

Calicarla,

Have you ever been mistyped on the phone in your "relaxed" voice? Quite honestly, I would peg you as female without question in both clips. I don't think they are all that much different, considering that I would think it the same person if you called twice in one day and in each call you used a different voice.

I never got any facial surgery because I was worried about what would happen to it in later years as a result from the surgery. I have features I don't necessarily think are feminine but they never caused any serious issues with me getting by. I've thought about that decision over the years but now that I'm 60, I'm sure I made the correct one. Although I still have features I don't like, I still have my face that works. And nothing sags.

No matter what you decide, I give you my best wishes for success.

Cindi

Quote from: kwala on February 11, 2016, 06:57:05 PM
Just to add on to what I posted previously, I also went into surgery in a similar situation with a voice that passed most of the time and I simply wanted this surgery to remove even the slightest doubt and give me total security.  However, I'm now at 4 months after the procedure and my voice is still a scratchy mess.  The first two months I could barely get any sound out.  I wanted this surgery so that I could blend in and avoid unwanted attention and so far this surgery has caused me all sorts of unwanted attention because I sound so awful.  Now, there is still a good chance that everything will work itself out and my voice will start to normalize, but would I go through all of this again if I could do it over?  Probably not.  I say this not to scare you, 90% of the patient stories I've read here and other places end up healing much better and much faster, but I wish someone had warned me about the potential complications.  Before surgery I would personally have graded my voice an A- and I was looking for A+.  Even if I achieve the A+ in the next few months, I don't think the stress and inability to effectively communicate for what will probably be half a year or more made it worth it for me.  Just trying to spread information and I wish you the best of luck if you decide to have the procedure

Kwala,

I can totally understand your situation and where you're coming from! The first time I opened my mouth to say my first word (I was a month post op) and nothing came out except air, I had a such a shock that. I spent the whole day crying. I was unbelievably disappointed and depressed!!

Luckily, the next few days that followed brought some changes, which meant that I have been regaining my voice gradually. I only say a word or two a day just to test my voice until I reach my two month mark. I am now 6.5 weeks post op.

In your situation, it must be far worse, and I applaud you for being so brave. However, I agree with you, not having a voice (or a clear voice I should say' for half a year makes you wonder whether the whole hassle was worth it.

Big hug from me hun!

Rita

I think the importance of post OP vouce therapy is often underestimated. Techniques like Lax Vox and others can help a lot to regain a good voice after surgery. An experienced voicy therapist hears if you miuse your voice or if your breathing is wrong.