I´ve talked about this before, because I have a hard time with it.

I hate everything feminine about myself. I feel like it´s trying to pull one on me on purpose, trying to emasculate me, make me feel inferior - which is in part due to my rather sadistic childhood where one of my parents continuously made themselves feel better by beating the (...) out of me.

I project these feelings around me too, like I despise women with really high voices or who wear a lot of make up, I don´t depise women in and of themselves but they´ll make me feel threathened in my own masculinity which calls up a lot of anger.

I know that a lot of transgender people feel similarly about their bodies and even have a hard time not harming themselves, or specifically not harming the regions that feel like a "betrayal". I wear a binder and a packer when I can but then the dysphoria just becomes more acute in different ways.

My housemates probably think I´m totally nuts because what with the anxiety attacks and the fits of rage I get in towards my body, I don´t get a lot of peace.

Just throwing it off my chest really. People have given me advice about this before, and sometimes it´s bearable, but I always return to the loathing in the end.

I suspect when you become closer to the person you want to be, much of that feeling will dissipate.

I think so too. But I´m scared of the hate and the time I still have to go on without hormones (could be a year). Think I might try to find a doc who is willing to put me on hormones and do my bloodwork for me without having to wait 16-12 months for a diagnosis.

You could try t concentrate on what you want ... your male side ...
just try to feel male inside ... and let it radiate outwards ...
not exaggerated just what feels natural ...

and let the women be they have problems of their own

just as you feel more like yourself you will feel the need to go against female sides less and less...

you might do a few things you like ... and help your manly side ... maybe start a new hobby ... together with a few other guys ...


*hugs*

Thanks Laura 

The thing is, I already do all that. There is no way I could be more masculine as is.
I´ve got a bunch of guy friends and I´m active in a club that´s mostly men.

It´s my body and the way that trans health is regulated in this country, I feel like it´s slowly choking me. Contrary to the US there is a monopoly of one institution who have very strict rules and very long waiting lists. Their attitude is one of taking all your power and ability to make decisions from you.

The attitude is really dealing some damage not just to me but several people.
I´m thinking of taking an alternative path (find a willing GP) because I see no use in suffering unnecessarily.

I noticed that in the last few years after I accepted being trans I switched from viewing myself as "female-bodied" to "male-bodied". In the past when I thought of myself as a female with a man's brain I was incessantly angry. When I viewed myself as a male who happens to have female hormonal body issues instead of a female, I found I was just altogether less angry about that situation. It felt like a medical problem that will be addressed in time (like my male friend who has gynaecomastia) rather than looking through a window at the male sex from the other side and feeling plagued by female problems. Men who have problems like gynaecomastia can certainly feel dysphoric about it but they still have the assurance that they are men and these body part problems do not make them women. So I view it like they do. Women have never felt threatening to my masculinity but now you could call me any female insult under the sun or describe me as whatever and it wouldn't have an effect because I'm 100% sure they do not apply to me. 

Figuring out a bearable way to view it and feel about it is important for one's sanity imo.

Quote from: November Fox on March 13, 2016, 10:18:40 AM
Thanks Laura 

The thing is, I already do all that. There is no way I could be more masculine as is.
I´ve got a bunch of guy friends and I´m active in a club that´s mostly men.

It´s my body and the way that trans health is regulated in this country, I feel like it´s slowly choking me. Contrary to the US there is a monopoly of one institution who have very strict rules and very long waiting lists. Their attitude is one of taking all your power and ability to make decisions from you.

The attitude is really dealing some damage not just to me but several people.
I´m thinking of taking an alternative path (find a willing GP) because I see no use in suffering unnecessarily.

Well you might do a bit of research on the internet .. its possible there are already people in your country being helped ... there might be trans groups ... and stories of people who were helped ...

alternatively you can always go private abroad ...
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,204334.msg1816704.html#msg1816704


*hugs*

I've been getting this too, more and more - i don't want to talk about or see or think about ~female~ things because dysphoria, especailly as i'm not really out so women often talk to me as if i'm a woman, but i also don't want to start hating or avoiding women or their bodies

I struggle with this too... I have always been a staunch feminist while hating being seen as a woman or having to do things that are traditionally feminine... I've struggled with this since I was a child.

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I have always been creeped out by women who are very conventionally feminine: visible makeup, "hairdos," clothing which shows off their bodies, etc. I've also had a visceral reaction to pregnant women. But as I progress in my transition, I've noticed that I'm much less affected by all those things, including that gut-level negative reaction to pregnant women.

The change is absolutely a consequence of feeling more and more secure as a man.

I know how you feel. Pre-T I avoided everything feminine like the plague. I didn't want to hang out with women too much or wear anything feminine or have any feminine hobbies. It definitely might have seemed like misogyny. I was never outright hateful towards women, but the way I rejected anything feminine in myself may have seemed like that.

For instance when I was younger and my mom wanted to talk about makeup or hair or periods with me, I would get angry and tell her I didn't like any of that ->-bleeped-<- and it was stupid or gross. I would say that I didn't like hanging out with girls because they had dumb girly hobbies. As I got older, I saw how that was hurtful. Now that I'm on T and post top surgery, those feelings have mostly gone away. I don't hate myself for being female anymore and I don't feel like I have to avoid feminine things in order to prove myself as a man. I still struggle with being grossed out by female genitalia, but I think that will go away after bottom surgery.

These feelings aren't the same as misogyny because they come from negative feelings about your own body. Once you become comfortable in your body as male, you'll be able to separate the negative feelings from how you feel about women. It will get better!

Quote from: spro on March 19, 2016, 03:37:18 PM
I know how you feel. Pre-T I avoided everything feminine like the plague. I didn't want to hang out with women too much or wear anything feminine or have any feminine hobbies. It definitely might have seemed like misogyny. I was never outright hateful towards women, but the way I rejected anything feminine in myself may have seemed like that.

For instance when I was younger and my mom wanted to talk about makeup or hair or periods with me, I would get angry and tell her I didn't like any of that ->-bleeped-<- and it was stupid or gross. I would say that I didn't like hanging out with girls because they had dumb girly hobbies. As I got older, I saw how that was hurtful. Now that I'm on T and post top surgery, those feelings have mostly gone away. I don't hate myself for being female anymore and I don't feel like I have to avoid feminine things in order to prove myself as a man. I still struggle with being grossed out by female genitalia, but I think that will go away after bottom surgery.

These feelings aren't the same as misogyny because they come from negative feelings about your own body. Once you become comfortable in your body as male, you'll be able to separate the negative feelings from how you feel about women. It will get better!

This is a very well thought out true post. It's about the same thing I reasoned out about myself a few years ago. I've always wondered if misogynist cis men were jealous of femininity or could have gender dysphoria themselves.

My being a feminist has probably contributed to my form of mild misogyny because while I respect women who are independent and strong, I REALLY look down on women who follow stereotypical ideas of females.  AKA all they care about are clothes and hair, they talk about pregnancy and kids all the time, they blabber on and on about "well, I liked that skirt but the hubby didn't so I didn't buy it", etc.  Unfotunately for me I am a fashion stylist and 99% of the people I work with ARE this type of woman.  Now that I am transitioning, I am starting to acknowledge how sexist my feelings really are--women are adults and should be free to act however they want, including ways I consider "dumb".  However, my disdain for the strongly feminine just gets stronger the more I acknowledge my dysphoria about my female shaped body.  I do NOT want to be associated with these women.  I think that it is a difficult line for us trans men to tread as we know the difficulties that come from existing in this world in a female body, yet we don't 100% understand how women think (even if we have a better idea than cis guys because of our social experiences).  Plus there is so much negativity toward women in the media, I think it adds to our dysphoria--why would you want to be associated with females when they are so looked down upon socially.  I am betting that trans women have some difficulty adjusting to the way they are now objectified and are so often the subject of ridicule just for their gender (like when a coach calls his male players "ladies" to insult them or someone blows off a women being angry as her being PMSy), though I don't know that for sure.  In a society that constantly bombards us with sexist imagery, it's hard not to be a little bit sexist, just like it's hard not to be a little racist.  Even if you are not consciously these things, thanks to socialization it usually seeps into your subconscious.  I believe that our problems with our bodies often make these feelings we want to suppress rise to the surface, leaving us feeling guilty for thinking them.  But I believe most people have them, even if they are buried deep down, and the only way to completely 100% fix it is to try and make sure the next generation of people gets fewer of these messages and the next less and the next less.  It's hard to change decades of subconscious programming.  But I do my best to remember that my feelings on women aren't fair and they aren't good and that "women" are not to blame for my dysphoria or for anything else.  In fact, "women" are all separate people who don't deserve to be catagorized as one bug, stereotypical whole.  This is easier said than done, though.

I think changing how I looked at it really helped. I stopped thinking of myself as guy trapped in a girl's body. I'm a guy, period. I just so happen to have a T deficiency, just like I have a vitamin D deficiency. Both can, and are, being sorted. Seeing it that way has made things better for me. I wish things were moving faster, but they're moving. So that's something.

Quote from: FtMitch on March 21, 2016, 09:05:59 AM
My being a feminist has probably contributed to my form of mild misogyny because while I respect women who are independent and strong, I REALLY look down on women who follow stereotypical ideas of females.  AKA all they care about are clothes and hair, they talk about pregnancy and kids all the time, they blabber on and on about "well, I liked that skirt but the hubby didn't so I didn't buy it", etc.  Unfotunately for me I am a fashion stylist and 99% of the people I work with ARE this type of woman.  Now that I am transitioning, I am starting to acknowledge how sexist my feelings really are--women are adults and should be free to act however they want, including ways I consider "dumb".  However, my disdain for the strongly feminine just gets stronger the more I acknowledge my dysphoria about my female shaped body.  I do NOT want to be associated with these women.  I think that it is a difficult line for us trans men to tread as we know the difficulties that come from existing in this world in a female body, yet we don't 100% understand how women think (even if we have a better idea than cis guys because of our social experiences).  Plus there is so much negativity toward women in the media, I think it adds to our dysphoria--why would you want to be associated with females when they are so looked down upon socially.  I am betting that trans women have some difficulty adjusting to the way they are now objectified and are so often the subject of ridicule just for their gender (like when a coach calls his male players "ladies" to insult them or someone blows off a women being angry as her being PMSy), though I don't know that for sure.  In a society that constantly bombards us with sexist imagery, it's hard not to be a little bit sexist, just like it's hard not to be a little racist.  Even if you are not consciously these things, thanks to socialization it usually seeps into your subconscious.  I believe that our problems with our bodies often make these feelings we want to suppress rise to the surface, leaving us feeling guilty for thinking them.  But I believe most people have them, even if they are buried deep down, and the only way to completely 100% fix it is to try and make sure the next generation of people gets fewer of these messages and the next less and the next less.  It's hard to change decades of subconscious programming.  But I do my best to remember that my feelings on women aren't fair and they aren't good and that "women" are not to blame for my dysphoria or for anything else.  In fact, "women" are all separate people who don't deserve to be catagorized as one bug, stereotypical whole.  This is easier said than done, though.

I agree with all of this ^^^

Also, whenever i came into contact with the 'sisterhood' and 'women for women' 'female community' kind of feminism, i always felt really out of place and jealous - i wanted to be able to feel part of that group, and the long history of female community, but i couldn't, and for a long time i didn't know why and felt like a failure

It's the same thing with body positivity - i feel like as afab with liberal interests i've been exposed to equal amounts of antiquated body beauty standards, and an expectation that i'll be able to find confidence in my own natural beauty and run off naked into the sea etc but i just can't with my body the way that it is. for a long time i also felt that was a failure and really resented body positivity + women that advocated 'natural beauty' for no real good reason. It's not a great way to feel lol

I agree with so much of what everyone has posted... it is like coming home and realizing that I'm not alone. It is amazing to discover that there actually other people who think the way I do.

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This is something I've struggled with, too, which is funny because I'm a pretty feminine guy. I never rejected everything female/feminine, but for years I just felt really disgusted by overly feminine things, like romance and pink. Which is really ironic because now I love romance novels (well, particularly the gay ones) and my room is rose-colored (basically pink). But I love them as a femme guy, you know? I was just freaked out for years by the idea of being seen as a feminine girl so I felt like I had to reject a lot of things. I remember once getting really pissed off at a woman who said I looked like a princess when I was wearing a velvety shirt with flowing sleeves because I was not a princess, damn it! I was a badass, clearly! And yet, I chose to wear that shirt so go figure...

It's something I've been thinking a lot about in terms of transition. I never really wore makeup much (outside of costumes and theatre), or had any interest in doing my hair, and while I have always liked skirts and dresses I haven't been able to bring myself to wear them lately because I know they just make everyone see me as a girl. But when I think of going on T I suddenly have an interest in makeup and hair and possibly wearing skirts again. I just want to look like a boy in makeup and a skirt because that's what I am. All of this is to say that I think a lot of this hatred/discomfort is dysphoria. I certainly have always felt disgusted by my body and have to remind myself constantly that women's bodies are not disgusting. Sigh. Sorry that this is so rambly...

Quote from: Jonathan L on March 25, 2016, 05:40:32 PM
This is something I've struggled with, too, which is funny because I'm a pretty feminine guy. I never rejected everything female/feminine, but for years I just felt really disgusted by overly feminine things, like romance and pink. Which is really ironic because now I love romance novels (well, particularly the gay ones) and my room is rose-colored (basically pink). But I love them as a femme guy, you know? I was just freaked out for years by the idea of being seen as a feminine girl so I felt like I had to reject a lot of things. I remember once getting really pissed off at a woman who said I looked like a princess when I was wearing a velvety shirt with flowing sleeves because I was not a princess, damn it! I was a badass, clearly! And yet, I chose to wear that shirt so go figure...

It's something I've been thinking a lot about in terms of transition. I never really wore makeup much (outside of costumes and theatre), or had any interest in doing my hair, and while I have always liked skirts and dresses I haven't been able to bring myself to wear them lately because I know they just make everyone see me as a girl. But when I think of going on T I suddenly have an interest in makeup and hair and possibly wearing skirts again. I just want to look like a boy in makeup and a skirt because that's what I am. All of this is to say that I think a lot of this hatred/discomfort is dysphoria. I certainly have always felt disgusted by my body and have to remind myself constantly that women's bodies are not disgusting. Sigh. Sorry that this is so rambly...

So I take it you were born female and identify as a man that wants to wear women's clothing? You could be the "pink prince" instead of the "pink princess".

Lol, I guess I'm a bit of a drag queen.

Quote from: FtMitch on March 21, 2016, 09:05:59 AM
My being a feminist has probably contributed to my form of mild misogyny because while I respect women who are independent and strong, I REALLY look down on women who follow stereotypical ideas of females.  AKA all they care about are clothes and hair, they talk about pregnancy and kids all the time, they blabber on and on about "well, I liked that skirt but the hubby didn't so I didn't buy it", etc.  Unfotunately for me I am a fashion stylist and 99% of the people I work with ARE this type of woman.  Now that I am transitioning, I am starting to acknowledge how sexist my feelings really are--women are adults and should be free to act however they want, including ways I consider "dumb". 

You know, I sort of feel the same way. I look down on no one, but I do have a difficult time with senseless banter and stereotypical sheep mentality shopping/clothes/whatever. Most of my friends are men. Quite honestly, I'm having a very difficult time figuring where I fit in the world. I don't feel attracted to men or women. I don't dwell on it much. I could get depressed. I'm working on a few projects hoping I'll get excited about something. That's what happens to me. I get going on something and I don't come up for air for a couple years. That's when I'm happiest.