Apologies if this thread is similar to others. So I probably identify with being 90% male and 10% agender; so I don't personally feel I'm nb enough to call myself that. But I'm curious how others feel about having that gender identity. How do you experience dysphoria? How did you come to the conclusion that some sort of nb identity fits you? How did you accept that you don't fit neatly into male and female? And how would your ideal body look?
For me I enjoy being a mixture of both masculine and feminine. I want the T to make me look more masculine with facial hair and a more male fat distribution; but would like to wear skirts and blouses at the same time. For me I feel this need to dress fem sometimes; which is probably similar to how a trans woman feels. I'd also like a flat chest but am undecided about bottom surgery.
Thanks for all view points

I am generally more masculine of centre and I have to say that I think I'd be deleriously happy if I woke up tomorrow in a fully functioning masculine body... but that isn't going to happen. Surgery and T are also probably not going to happen, so for my own sanity, I need to accept my body for what it is (definitely have dysphoria so this is a work in process).
I also spend enough time around cis men and women to know that while I identify as a guy, I also have a "female" side... one that I can enjoy as long as I get to be a guy most of the time. If I am treated as a woman all the time, I get a lot of social dysphoria.
I dress in men's wear and don't see that changing. I also love hanging out with men and hope to go back to work in a male dominated field again.
If I could do it safely, I would get top surgery. I don't really have any desire for bottom surgery.


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I would like my gender expression to be 100% female, but as long as I continue moving forward with an accurate self-regard for my desires, I'm content with my current gender identity, which is approximately 50/50 male/female.

One way my gender identity manifests is by usually placing me in a dominant position (male), but then having me lead an honest and emotional conversation (female). My desire to be in a dominant position may change if I alter my biology and am treated as a female, so I'm not sure if the non-binary label applies to me, but at least temporarily the gender identity scale feels too balanced for me to align myself with either side.

Quote from: autumn08 on March 28, 2016, 03:07:50 PM
One way my gender identity manifests is by usually placing me in a dominant position around people (male),

Having been in the Army or working for the Army now for 39 years this isn't a male trait to me.  It's simply a trait associated with a particular position within an organization.  It applies equally to both males and females.

For me, I want to be seen by the world 100% a woman. I love being a woman.

However, my gender experience is on the male side. I "feel" male more often than I feel female,  and some of the time I don't feel like I have any gender at all. Although my presentation is pretty stable, my internally experienced gender is very fluid.

I'm pretty happy with this situation. It doesn't bother me much. When I'm seen as female, there's still kind of a rush there, 2 and a half years into full time, because it feels like I"m getting away with something. 

Quote from: Deborah on March 28, 2016, 03:24:11 PM
Having been in the Army or working for the Army now for 39 years this isn't a male trait to me.  It's simply a trait associated with a particular position within an organization.  It applies equally to both males and females.

Describing my gender is like describing something that is orange. In order to describe its color, I need to use society's view of red and yellow.

The fact that society views dominance as a male trait doesn't change who I am, but it affects the words I use to describe myself.

hmmm.

I have accute body dysphoria, but at the same time, I identify as being someone that is not a woman.

I am nonbinary because I am unique.  My body is changing on high dose hormones, I am full transition, yet I can move about looking like any gender I want to, and do it completely comfortably.  I even get a kick out of it.

I am my own gender.  I am not a woman trapped in a mans body, I am a transperson.  Or technically a trans female.

But no box fits.  I am diagnosed as a "nonbinary transgender woman" on my carry letter (for the ladies room).  I have no desire to change my drivers liscence ID.  I would love to get the neo vagina but its not a deal breaker and I have friends that have run into trouble with the op.

My experience is that I love being me.

Satin Joy

Being non-binary is wonderful, as I am free to give gender stereotypes the finger and live life doing what makes me happy.
On the other hand, with non-binary being an umbrella, trying to define myself with a gender identity within that umbrella I end up feeling like Goldilocks;
"This one's too manly"
"This one's too girly"
"This one implies I care about gender neutral pronouns"

Alas, I gave up trying when I realized I'm appagender and don't actually care what I'm seen or treated as.

Quote from: Satinjoy on March 28, 2016, 07:23:22 PM
I am my own gender.  I am not a woman trapped in a mans body,

This sums it up rather well for me too. Yes, I've got my share of body dysphoria and would feel immensely more comfortable as anatomically completely female. However, I cannot deny (and could not even after transitioning completely to female) that strictly speaking, neither of the usual two options is correct. These days, I'm pretty open about it too.

About the military, by the way, I am lucky enough to live in a country where being trans does not bar one from military service. Earlier this month I had a week of reserve training, and this time I was just polite and quiet and obeyed when I was directed to the women's side to change. It was much less stressful than undressing to my bra and panties in the men's locker room...   What really surprised me, though, was how no-one seemed to consider it an issue or even worth mentioning when, encouraged by the locker room incident, I switched from using my first given name (which is male) to the third one (which is female). So no, clearly one doesn't need all that much masculinity to be in the military and tell a bunch of blokes what to do.

Seshatneferw, I'm so happy to hear that our military has evolved. That says good things about society overall.

Being nonbinary just is for me. I have no dysphoria. I have a female body and have to wear a packer to achieve anything resembling a male package, but that's okay. Just what it is. But to me, that's because I've never gotten any grief for my pseudo-maleness.

I'm not a guy, but I'm sure not a woman. And that's okay with me.

-- Sue

I think as long as there is a part of you that feels non-binary then you can identify as that. For me, I include being trans, genderqueer, and androgyne in my complete gender identity, but I'm mainly androgyne.

I'm 5% feminine (not female, but a feminine gender that I don't associate with the cis female gender) 45% nothing in particular, and 50% male.

So I'm mostly male. As far as my dysphoria goes, I never really had any body dysphoria because boys and girls look pretty much exactly the same before puberty. I had horrible dysphoria about my hair though because I had never met a cis guy with long hair, and my mother refused to let me cut it short because she was afraid I'd look like a boy. Which was kind of the point. But to me, long hair was a female staple. And I hated it so much. It's short now which feels so great. I have a little top dysphoria, but I'm also pretty flat. It really only becomes a thing when I wear a bra. I usually wear a sports bra cause I'm still waiting on my binder (excited).

To me, I often forget I even have a gender. I think you are allowed to feel like you're on the masculine side of nothing. That's how I see mine. I'm nothing on the masculine side of nothing with sprinkles of femininity everywhere.

Quote from: Elis on March 28, 2016, 01:41:47 PM
Apologies if this thread is similar to others. So I probably identify with being 90% male and 10% agender; so I don't personally feel I'm nb enough to call myself that. But I'm curious how others feel about having that gender identity. How do you experience dysphoria? How did you come to the conclusion that some sort of nb identity fits you? How did you accept that you don't fit neatly into male and female? And how would your ideal body look?
For me I enjoy being a mixture of both masculine and feminine. I want the T to make me look more masculine with facial hair and a more male fat distribution; but would like to wear skirts and blouses at the same time. For me I feel this need to dress fem sometimes; which is probably similar to how a trans woman feels. I'd also like a flat chest but am undecided about bottom surgery.
Thanks for all view points

I probably can't answer all of your questions because I'm still exploring my feelings and I'm not exactly sure what I want but so far I have figured out a couple things. One of them being it seems I'm extremely similar in my expression and identity i am "Male" but I have a little bit of a "Agender" side that likes to occasionally sneak up upon me.
I've come to realize that the ideal body for me would probably be something like having chest surgery except I'm not sure if my chest will look like either gender I may just have them make it flat and leave it at that, but haven't decided. As for my body it was only today that I realized I'm not necessarily scared of going on testosterone and having body hair because I actually don't care it's not in my list of wants but it's something that I can deal with and not hate or love something that just happens to come into existence and I can settle with that as long as I am happy, i hope i make the correct choice. I can't really explain how I experience dysphoria when it comes to stuff like that it can be complicated it's not so much looking at myself that I dislike it's the thoughts that run through my head. I guess that's the only way of really describing how my dysphoria effects me. As for your question about how i  basically figured it out I couldn't really give you a direct answer because in my life there has been a lot of things that's happened I just don't know where to start, I don't really understand where i "new" there was different moments that I "new" and then there was moments that I doubted and said no.
It's been a long journey and that when I'm still trying to understand.

There was a time in my twenties when I pretty much decided that if I wasn't going to fit in anyway I'd just go ahead and not fit in my way, so I dressed androgynously most of the time, combining skirts with butch elements and playing around the line as I saw fit.  I went full femme for some things (mostly performance related) and was pressured by some in the scene to commit to transition, but mostly my home was in the middle - not rejecting my masculinity (such as it is) Recording but not being limited by it.  Reactions usually ranged from apathy or failure to notice (how you react when you realise most people don't actually care what you do as much as you thought tells you a lot about yourself as a person) to mostly positive (though I had to walk away from a few confrontations they were rare and fairly simple to deal with).
I was aware though that this only worked because I was willing to accept the role of Exotic Misfit, which was a lot of fun but didn't do a lot for relating with people on a more everyday level.  It's been said that many people love the idea of the gender spectrum, so long as it doesn't apply to s/o's, family members or anyone else that might affect them directly. 
So my current goal is to be able to express and discuss my gender identity without it being all that I'm about, an aspect of my personality and not a gimmick, a person instead of a zoo animal. 

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Thanks for all the replies . I think I just need to relax and stop over thinking. I just wish everything in society wasn't heavily gendered a certain way so i could dress and be myself without fear of reprisal.
I would say my ideal body would just be T; top surgery and maybe a hysterectomy just for the health benefits. Not sure if I want bottom surgery and not sure if I'd want to be on T forever.
In the end it's my life and I need to be myself; whatever that exactly is 

I think I mentioned somewhere that I don't really know for absolute sure if I am male, because of the quandary of how can my brain - or any brain - really know what other brains feel like - but I know that I'm not a very effective nor happy female, and there's got to be a good reason for that. I don't think I can class myself non-binary, but I don't believe a person has to have a binary presentation, and belong to one camp or another when it comes to dress and mannerisms and all that.

I could live with it if I never wore another piece of female clothing ever again, but if someone decided that say, I couldn't use certain products or do certain activities because male I'd tell them to go jump. I tell ya, I love a nice long hot bath for the hell of it, I like living in a comfortable, nice-looking space (I take my comfort pretty seriously)  and my profession is clearly something more females are doing than males if what I see out there is anything to go by. I don't really go by gender as a guide to what I should and shouldn't do. Luckily most of the things I'm interested in and like to do have no real gender barrier attached to them.

I remember as a kid actually wishing I had a male body, but that I didn't have the junk and had a genderless space there or something. I think that was my way of dealing with the problem of belief that I'll never have anything there that works exactly as it 'should'. It just seemed easier to my kid brain to erase the sex aspect altogether, but I remember the body was very much of the male frame, the narrow hips, broad shoulders, flat chest. Strange, I suppose. I would have expected the penis to mean more, but to me it really doesn't define a man, like it did for the ancient Greeks and such. So it's not all that important to me. It would be nice, but not as imperative as having the blood of a man (testosterone flowing in there) and the basic shape of one.

I do have a kind of aversion to male and female stereotypes. The further they are to the extremes, the less I like them. I'm apparently bisexual, and I've always been drawn to women who're more on the masculine side - i.e. short hair, a bit of muscle tone, competitive hobbies, etc. And if a man happens to have a more twinky body or long hair and happens to be more self-expressive like an actor or an artist... I'm more drawn to that than I am the typical beefcake. It's reflected in me as well. I don't like the extremes of sexual dimorphism, and more comfortable playing around closer to androgyny, and with people who are also closer to center and comfortable enough in themselves to blur the line sometimes. 

This is sort of what confuses me. There are some people who label themselves as gender non comforming who seem to be using that label because they were AMAB but like to wear dresses or AFAB but like to wear suits. For me personally clothes can't have a gender attached to them but for other people they feel they need a label to explain to others why they dress the way they do; which seems pointless.
I'm finding it difficult to not care what others think. I have to do a double take and think to myself I should be able to do what I want and I shouldn't be controlled by 'only one gender can do this but others can't'
As a kid I never really thought about gender. I was allowed to do things boys were allowed to do; but i knew there was a biologicak difference between male and female. When I become a teenager that's when I only started realising there are differences socially and when I wished my chest wasn't how it was. To me having a penis just isn't important to me right now; but in the future it may change as I start socialising more with guys and am seen by society as completely male. As long as you feel male you are male; having a penis is just an added bonus which isn't always necessary. I simply feel 'right' now that my brain isn't being poisoned by estrogen. But I don't think I'll feel wholly complete until I have a masculine shape.
Similiarly to you I'm only attracted to females who are on the butcher side and have no real attraction to women who are very feminine. Although when it comes to guys I'm the complete opposite and am only attracted to men who are the fem twink type; so someone who's similar to how I am. I find androgynous people specifically attractive; partly to how they look and partly them being comfortable not feeling forced to conform to a certain stereotype.

Honestly I feel you a lot on what you said. I was AFAB and lived the first ~15 years of my life (especially the pubescent ones) hating every second of having to be seen as female and hiding inside myself and not wanting to be social because I'd have to pretend to be something I wasn't, so I transitioned to male.... aaaaand, although it hasn't been NEARLY as bad (I'm way more outgoing than I used to be, I'm mostly comfortable with my body, I'm at general peace with being seen as a guy), I have noticed some dysphoria in the other direction that made me question some things. I feel honestly like I take so much from both binary genders in how I act, dress, see myself, and interact with others that it makes me really uncomfortable to align myself with any given gender. While I'm way more comfortable with my body now than I used to be before T and my top surgery, I DO miss being a bit... softer, I guess? I kind of miss having less of a "V" body shape, and I kinda hate how wide my shoulders are. Honestly my ideal body would be, if society were better about this stuff where I live, kind of like the bodies of some of the chubbier cisgender men I know- kind of bigger hips, facial hair, a decent amount of body hair, a bit softer face, just kind of a bit curvier and softer but with a definitely recognizably masculine angle to it. I identify as agender because, honestly, I'm getting kinda sick of trying to be one gender or the other and I just kinda don't wanna deal with trying to desperately play a role I'm not good at. 

Quote from: Elis on April 15, 2016, 06:16:21 AM
This is sort of what confuses me. There are some people who label themselves as gender non comforming who seem to be using that label because they were AMAB but like to wear dresses or AFAB but like to wear suits. For me personally clothes can't have a gender attached to them but for other people they feel they need a label to explain to others why they dress the way they do; which seems pointless.
I'm finding it difficult to not care what others think. I have to do a double take and think to myself I should be able to do what I want and I shouldn't be controlled by 'only one gender can do this but others can't'
As a kid I never really thought about gender. I was allowed to do things boys were allowed to do; but i knew there was a biologicak difference between male and female. When I become a teenager that's when I only started realising there are differences socially and when I wished my chest wasn't how it was. To me having a penis just isn't important to me right now; but in the future it may change as I start socialising more with guys and am seen by society as completely male. As long as you feel male you are male; having a penis is just an added bonus which isn't always necessary. I simply feel 'right' now that my brain isn't being poisoned by estrogen. But I don't think I'll feel wholly complete until I have a masculine shape.
Similiarly to you I'm only attracted to females who are on the butcher side and have no real attraction to women who are very feminine. Although when it comes to guys I'm the complete opposite and am only attracted to men who are the fem twink type; so someone who's similar to how I am. I find androgynous people specifically attractive; partly to how they look and partly them being comfortable not feeling forced to conform to a certain stereotype.

Clothes can be a bit of a red herring, as can gender stereotypes - for instance, playing dress-up dolls and doing housework without complaint has naff all to do with 'true' gender, but I've heard both used as checkmate evidence of femininity.   On the other hand, these are (albeit extreme examples of) the societal gender definitions we are non-conforming to so if you choose a non-conforming label in order to wear a dress or a suit then, ipso facto, you are correct to do so. 

We all dream of the day when there will be no need for labels at all.




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Quote from: KerryJK on May 11, 2016, 11:49:29 AM
We all dream of the day when there will be no need for labels at all.

I actually don't think such a day will come. We'll always have trans people - people who don't identify with the sex they are assigned at birth and I suspect we will always have non-binary people, who don't identify cleanly with either binary gender.

Having labels for these concepts is amazingly, unbelievably powerful. Just having a name for what you are can be so affirming, and inversely, having no name for what you are can be alienating.

All that being said, I'm not sure all the various labels non-binary people use to label ourselves might be creating needless angst. Since they're really descriptions of subjective experiences, what feels like agender to one might feel like genderfluid to another. There don't seem to be objectively measurable differences between the various descriptions of non-binary experiences.

I label myself "non-binary" because don't identify as any gender.  For me, gender is a social construct I have to deal with when interacting with others of my species.  When I'm by myself (as I frequently am), I'm just me.

I'm transitioning to female, not because I feel I am somehow female inside, but because when I look at the bits and pieces that make up my essential nature and how I feel most comfortable living and being, they seem to fit society's idea of "female" better than its idea of "male."  It's society that rather arbitrarily labels some (well, most) of the things that feel like "me" as "female" things, i.e., things not acceptable in someone with my anatomy.  It's society that has labeled me "male" and then tried to force me to change my ways to better fit what it thinks "male" people have to be.  (What is the name for this kind of illogic: "you are male, all males are X, therefore stop being Y!")  It society that labels people "male" or "female" and forces people to live a certain way if they're labeled the one and a different way if they're labeled the other.

On another site, I had a long-running argument with a regular.  They insisted I was doing female stuff (mainly, wearing skirts and dresses) because I was transgender and to express my transgender-ness.  I kept insisting: you've got it backwards: I am called transgender because I like/want to wear skirts and dresses, etc.  Reminds me of the psychoanalysts' claim that girls who want to climb trees are doing it because they have penis envy; someone pointed out that maybe some, at least, climb trees because they like to climb trees.  For me, the skirts & dresses &c. came first, before any labels.

That said, I learned to fake being male enough to at least appear to fit into social expectations (well, sort of) in order to survive.  I worry that transitioning is going to make me unconsciously try to do the same, only in the female direction, instead of simply being me and assuming that will be "female enough."  The years of having it beaten into my head that the real me is about as acceptable as a skunk at a garden party have warped me, I guess.