I am feeling so frustrated today!  See, my main hobby is one that is (at least in America) primarily done by women: amateur hunter/jumper horseback riding. I ride horses all the time--at least 5 times a week--and spend most of my days at the barn grooming horses for my trainer.  Most of my income goes into horseback riding, and it's a very big part of my life. At the professional level there are plenty of men, but most amateurs are women.  It is exceptionally rare to find male riders at the amateur level.  Lately I've been feeling a little frustrated and very uncomfortable, because while the people at my barn try and remember to use the correct pronouns, they often slip up and say "her" or "she" instead of "he".  I don't want to make a big deal and point it out every time because often they DO use the right pronouns, just sometimes they forget.  I feel as though part of the reason behind this is because it's so unusual for men to ride English at this level.  Do you think that there is anything I can do to make myself feel more confident as a guy in this situation?  It's having a pretty negative effect on my psyche lately because I am at the barn SO MUCH, and I hate the fact that it is hurting my confidence.  Yes, I ride English.  Yes, I am a guy.  Why the heck do these things have to be mutually exclusive in people's minds?  ARGH.  I am also afraid that if I ever try to date a fellow horse person, they will be more likely to consider me a "faker" or not really a man since guys are so rare in this sport.  I know, it's a ridiculous fear, but one I have nevertheless. 

I know lots of guys have hobbies that are not traditionally masculine, and I know that doesn't make you any less male.  But at the same time, it is stressful when other people actually ACCEPT you as trans but FORGET what pronouns to use just because you're the only guy at the entire dang barn and they're so used to referring to "her" and "she" and calling groups of people "ladies" automatically.

Time to go Professional maybe??

Quote from: Ms Grace on April 02, 2016, 09:19:16 PM
Time to go Professional maybe??

LOL, if only I had the money!  (If wishes were horses, we'd all show in Wellington!)  It is definitely a privileged person's sport!  Heck, even at the level I do you have to be pretty darn privileged to afford the hundreds of dollars a week in lesson fees, the $100-200 a pair riding pants, the $300-500 riding boots, the $200 helmet, the money for board if you own a horse (the money for the lease in my case), and the $300-$500 cost of trailering to and entering even the lowest priced schooling shows.  I was actually thinking earlier that I really ought to be grateful I can do even what I do--it truly is a privilege most people can't afford.  To ride at a higher level costs around $2500 a month in board and training fees, not including the cost of the horse itself, and shows cost $1500-$3000 a piece!  But there is no chance of moving to pro level unless you ride at those high level barns and attend those pricey shows.  *sigh*  But we can all dream, right?  Being a professional rider was my dream as a kid, but unfortunately if you ain't born to wealth then it's a very, very difficult sport to break into!

well ya gotta weigh the factors with hobbies. I race remote controlled race cars. But weighing what it would mean as I transition, i cannot help but think about the juvenile behaviors of a lot of those in a hobby that is 99.9% guys. It won't affect me too much to end that hobby. But if you love your hobby, and the effects of transition as far as that hobby are unknown, I could see you "biting the bullet" for that hobby that you love and embracing it.

Were you interacting with these people before coming out as trans and using male pronouns? I just wonder if this has less to do with them messing up pronouns because it's unusual for a guy to be there and more to do with them still adjusting to the switch? I've been thinking about this a lot lately because the people who seem to be having the easiest time with my pronouns are the people who have either known me for a really short time or who are used to interacting with trans people and changing pronouns. But the people who've known me awhile and don't have any experience with changing pronouns are really struggling. And I don't even come close to passing at this point so I don't think that it's so much a question of some people seeing me as female/feminine since I'm sure I read as female to everyone. That said I completely understand these fears. I'm always afraid that even if I do pass someday people will insist that I like the things I like because I'm really a girl or something equally stupid I don't know if this would help at all, but one thing that would help me feel more secure in my masculinity in that situation would be to remind myself that a lot of guys are insecure about having "female" hobbies and that by pursuing this I'm just proving how secure and confident I am in my masculinity. Kind of like, "Those other guys aren't man enough to handle a hobby like this." Lol, it sounds silly, but I think it's actually kind of true

Sponsors! You need sponsors!  Or a patron who believes in your talent. It can and does happen -- just keep hanging out with the rich folks in the barn...

In the meantime, hold your head high and be who you are.  Is there anyone where you ride who's enough of an ally that you could ask them to spread the word, quietly, that it's really painful for you to be misgendered? That can help.

Quote from: Jonathan L on April 02, 2016, 11:14:04 PM
Were you interacting with these people before coming out as trans and using male pronouns? I just wonder if this has less to do with them messing up pronouns because it's unusual for a guy to be there and more to do with them still adjusting to the switch?

I was thinking along these lines. I have this issue at work. Not to completely dismiss your fears, but it leaves room for more hope that it gets better. I have people who see me continuously now and have a hard time using gendered language as new people meet and interact with me as a man.

To rant with you a bit...
I do know about horsemanship and how it is mostly a "girls" hobby. Like in cooking. It is considered girly but most chefs are men. It is yet another field dominated by men, but only women seem to dabble. Kinda stupid.

Back when I was young and in pony club there was only one other guy and he was really young. My trainer was male though. He bought up a ranch and decided to teach English riders after professionally competing. I got into dressage and did a little hunter jumper. My trainer was absolutely gay for hunter jumper.

I'm getting back into riding again. Not long ago I rented a thoroughbred and was goofing around on him for practice. He got particularly spooked by a kid messing around in a leave pile and I got bucked off. His mother yelled at him for "throwing that boy off his horse" so I know the stigma wont stop you from passing with given time.

I would expect that the hobby has less to do with it than people just struggling to change, or thoughtlessly answering. I run into it too with work and hobbies people who are new are great but people who knew me before even after almost a year full time still mess up sometimes. Though I will say I have a special hatred for group addresses....I am so sick of hearing "ok guys, im going to go xyz" the only thing worse is when they start like that then realize I am there it's add in something drawing attention to me.

I am a geek, video games, table top games I even work part time at the local game store. Last night was the midnight release of a new expansion for a game. 60 plus people where there from midnight till 5 am and aside from me working it was all men. Not the most comfortable situation.

Serena

Quote from: Tysilio on April 02, 2016, 11:45:51 PM
Sponsors! You need sponsors!  Or a patron who believes in your talent. It can and does happen -- just keep hanging out with the rich folks in the barn...

In the meantime, hold your head high and be who you are.  Is there anyone where you ride who's enough of an ally that you could ask them to spread the word, quietly, that it's really painful for you to be misgendered? That can help.

Hey there are some wealthy TG people out there, write to them! They may love to sponsor an transman in a professional sport.  Who knows Caitlyn J may come to the party! It is just a tax write off for her.

i don't think it has anything to do with your hobby on why people "forget" i think it's just them knowing who you were before and still misgendering you, etc. because that is what most often happens. if another guy went there and maybe even looked feminine, i doubt they would misgender him tbh. it isn't something that is divide by sex in a concrete way (eg. a gym, or a sports team) so people have no reason to associate you with female pronouns. all in all, you need to be forceful with them if they keep misgendering you imo. i get it's new and a "habit" but it is one that needs to be broken and the only way that happens is if you enforce it harder imo or don't let it get to you but the more you enforce it, the more people will use the right pronouns instead of just "letting it go" because then people think it's okay to misgender you.

Same in my circles. Not only are the genre of comics I create in dominated by women, but the genre of sculpting I usually go for is also massively dominated by women as a profession and/or hobby. I do know other male doll/figure sculptors like Mark Dennis and Mark Newman, but we are apparently rare in the self-representing quarter. Although these have since ceased to be hobbies in the last 10 years and are now full time jobs for me.

Honestly it doesn't bother me. It's kind of a novelty to be a male artist in these circles and meet many female fans who are understandably curious how I got into the whole thing and how I feel about sculpting art dolls. I do notice that male artists tend to focus on being fully professional - I'm not sure whether that is them being more aggressive in how they sell or whether it's just that many female artists prefer to keep it on the hobby end and not let it become all "work" (very understandable - once you go down that road there's no going back), but I certainly want to take it as far as it will go and get as prominent as I can in the field.

As a mod at several art doll sites in the past I would get collectively passed over as male because I think 95% of the userbase was female... but it didn't really matter to me. People would correct others for me out of politeness and I never felt like it was something to make a deal out of online. I would in a physical setting like a gallery, but never deemed it worth the continuous effort or worry to keep bothering to correct newbies to the community. One of the advantages of it being a female-dominated community is that it was very polite and accepting in places like forums and meetups and collectives. There are downsides of it being a female-dominated profession as well apparently.

Professionally I originally kept my gender neutral or unmentioned, just as a kind of experiment ... and eventually I admitted my gender as male because it seemed to be that people wanted to know whether they were buying from a man or a woman. Turned out it's a little more favorable to be male if applying for a corporate position, and a little better to be female as a self-representing artist within the main "doll community" because most of the fans and collectors are also women. Within the comics community it doesn't seem to matter who or what as long as your stories are good.

I sympathize with the horses though. I live in an area where there are a lot of horses, riders and horse riding schools, and at one point I was interested in applying for an apprenticeship in working with horses. But seeing how massively dominated the whole thing is by women I wondered if I'd even get a look in for being hired. I mean my area is an area where it's still perfectly acceptable to discriminate for jobs based on sex because people don't think a man can be a carer or make a bed up properly (even though government here has rules against this, they just ignore it). I did think about applying before I transitioned but again, wondered if I'd keep my job for long if I did begin to transition.

This is an interesting conversation. I ran into a situation at work the other day when someone addressed the whole room as "you guys". I grew up in New England where that was gender neutral, but in the South the gender neutral address is "y'all". Everyone knew each other pretty well and they're used to me and were treating me as "one of the guys" however I am only out to a few of them (as trans--most of them should know I'm gay by now). It bothered me because if I HAD been the only woman in the room I would have had a problem with it and I felt like I was betraying feminism by NOT saying something even though I desperately want them to see me as a guy, if that makes sense? Plus I'm well aware that treating me as one of the guys - aka a "chill girl" (I dress masculine tho) - does not mean they're going to accept me when they find out I'm the transgender menace in their midst.

Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on April 03, 2016, 07:33:28 AM
This is an interesting conversation. I ran into a situation at work the other day when someone addressed the whole room as "you guys". I grew up in New England where that was gender neutral, but in the South the gender neutral address is "y'all". Everyone knew each other pretty well and they're used to me and were treating me as "one of the guys" however I am only out to a few of them (as trans--most of them should know I'm gay by now). It bothered me because if I HAD been the only woman in the room I would have had a problem with it and I felt like I was betraying feminism by NOT saying something even though I desperately want them to see me as a guy, if that makes sense? Plus I'm well aware that treating me as one of the guys - aka a "chill girl" (I dress masculine tho) - does not mean they're going to accept me when they find out I'm the transgender menace in their midst.

Is that person from the south? I grew up in New England as well but moved to Georgia in like 5th grade. I still say you guys but I also say y'all. It just depends on what comes out first. It could just be their vocab.
Like I say you guys, y'all, dude, and girl to everyone it just depends on what flows better or how exciting I get.
I don't mean any gender when I say it so I've called my male friends girl and my female friends dude. It honestly just depends on what I'm about to say

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

Thanks for all the great replies!  I didn't know the people at the barn long before I transitioned, but I did know them and many of them are pretty conservative (not in a sense that they have a problem with LGBT people but in the sense that they haven't been very exposed to this sort of thing before), so it may be more of a problem adjusting.  The reason I don't correct very often is that I am usually misgendered during a really busy time like when I am being instructed on a jump course seconds before jumping it, which probably just proves that it's slipping their minds since it mainly happens when they are distracted.  Though I do think it happens sometimes when they are talking to other people.  . Hopefully they will adjust.  The barn is owned by a lesbian so I think the older clientele have some trouble understanding the difference simply because they don't know anything about trans men.

Darn all these insecurities...

That is a really great idea about sponsorship... I might have to give that a try sometime. 

So when it comes to hobbies... One of the really sad things for me about going on T is that I have to give up the women's football team that I'm on and that I love so much. I'll still stay connected to the team and go watch the games but it's sad not to be able to play with them anymore.

I think I will start looking and asking around to join a men's team but don't know if I will be ready for that yet this summer/fall. I could always find a co-op league so there are options..

I don't yet pass as male ever (I'm starting T actually in the next week or two when I can get my prescription) but I can't imagine that people sometimes messing up the pronouns as an innocent mistake would bother me that much. But maybe I will feel differently once I'm fully transitioning..

I've got a degree in making precious jewellery so I definitely feel you. The entire department was female too. The first time i met with a psychologist about my gender I made the mistake of mentioning this and had to explain that until very recently the profession has been male dominated, and while a lot of independent or self employed art jewellers are female, in the more traditional areas of the field it's still male dominated.

She went on to talk about how  when she was growing up, all the 'other girls' (please save me from cis ~tomboy~ females) were interested in horses, so i just didn't talk about the decade i spent on horseback as a child P:

At the moment I'm still working in design, and I have to keep reminding myself (and others) that all the famous historical designers i like were male too. People forget how almost all professions have always been male dominated (because patriarchy) regardless of how people perceive the objects or activities.

Actually I think most professions were male dominated because men were and always have been expected to be employed/work, and women were not always expected to be. Not because 'Patriarchy' was intent upon preventing women from doing it. But women have always been on the crafty side throughout human history - as in skilled craftspeople - activities like weaving, embroidering, tailoring and making jewellery were some of the earliest human examples of craft and were probably accomplished by women due to the division of hard-to-soft labor between males and females. So if you wanna say males were "professional" jewelers or tailors - I'd bet women were the "unprofessional" or unsung masters for millennia before that.   

And women as celebrated craftspeople? 'Patriarchy' couldn't stop them being so. Ever heard of Artemisia Gentileschi? Famous female painter in the 1600s, when you'd expect that male-dominated environment to have chewed her up and spat her out for even trying. She was famous and celebrated in her own lifetime, joined a prestigious academy of arts and even painted lots of her own interpretations of Biblical women, and a damn good painter... which is more than can be said for the fortunes of some of her male colleagues. Maybe she was lucky, but knowing the art world myself I think it's just determination and skill.

Remember, 'Patriarchy' as they call it these days would logically have restricted men if it also restricted women. For every woman not allowed to go work on a dangerous scaffold or fight in a war, some man had to whether he wanted to or not. People assume a lot these days that a) women actually wanted to do all the things men were expected to and that b) men loved doing all the things they were expected to. I don't know about you but hard labor, total financial responsibility for an entire family and wars don't sound like fun, even as a man.

Maybe you could look at it another way? If you're straight, then you have an excellent way of meeting women through your hobby. IMO, a lot of the things we can be initially insecure about can be superpowers for meeting new people if and when we embrace them.

And I say y'all all the time without having lived a day in the south, because it isn't gendered. Once I knew about not misgendering people and was intensely aware of it being done, I adopted y'all as an easy way of being inclusive.


     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on April 08, 2016, 01:02:22 PM
Actually I think most professions were male dominated because men were and always have been expected to be employed/work, and women were not always expected to be. Not because 'Patriarchy' was intent upon preventing women from doing it.

Males being expected to be the ones working is part of a patriarchal society

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on April 08, 2016, 01:02:22 PM
But women have always been on the crafty side throughout human history - as in skilled craftspeople - activities like weaving, embroidering, tailoring and making jewellery were some of the earliest human examples of craft and were probably accomplished by women due to the division of hard-to-soft labor between males and females. So if you wanna say males were "professional" jewelers or tailors - I'd bet women were the "unprofessional" or unsung masters for millennia before that.   

Yeah there definitely are unsung females out there but that doesn't mean that historically the males don't outweigh the females, particularly in high art and goldsmithing (which historically were cross-over areas, such as benvenuto cellini and lorenzo ghiberti). In terms of bench jewellery skills like diamond setting, raising, polishing and engraving, in my experience there are more men doing it.

Women and crafts have a very interesting history. Of course it was mostly women, particularly affluent women, doing things like hand embroidery and paper cutting, but that's probably also one of the reasons crafts are perceived as less valuable than arts (like painting and sculpture) - crafts are associated with women and aren't as highbrow as fine arts (in a patriarchal society). Crafts are associated with women because women weren't encouraged to do fine arts. They weren't allowed to draw naked life models, for example, and I doubt many women before the turn of the century were entering into apprenticeships in workshops at 13. The RA had 34 founding members, but only two of them were women. There was even an idea that watercolours were for women and oils were for men...

but despite being associated by most people with crafts, and therefore with women, fine jewellery and goldsmithing historically were artisanal like painting and sculpture, and were male dominated (with a few exceptions remembered for being exceptions), and there are still more men in the industry in the UK from what I've seen.

I think women really entered the industry probably about the Arts and Crafts movement in the late 19th century. There are a lot of female goldsmiths who are successful and well known now, but up until less than two hundred years ago, i don't think there were any. There's a reason one of the oldest guilds in the UK is called the incorporation of hammermen.

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on April 08, 2016, 01:02:22 PMAnd women as celebrated craftspeople? 'Patriarchy' couldn't stop them being so. Ever heard of Artemisia Gentileschi? Famous female painter in the 1600s, when you'd expect that male-dominated environment to have chewed her up and spat her out for even trying. She was famous and celebrated in her own lifetime, joined a prestigious academy of arts and even painted lots of her own interpretations of Biblical women, and a damn good painter... which is more than can be said for the fortunes of some of her male colleagues. Maybe she was lucky, but knowing the art world myself I think it's just determination and skill.

Yeah i've heard of Artemisia Gentileschi, but one female Baroque painter becoming successful doesn't mean that patriarchy doesn't exist. Remember that she had to submit to thumbscrews in order for a court to believe that she wasn't lying about being raped. That doesn't sound like a female friendly society. Also there are female painters like Judith Leyster whose work was attributed to male painters (in Leyster's case Frans Hals) because female painters were so rare that people didn't/ don't believe that they existed. This isn't necessarily because they didn't, but because the bias towards males (i.e. a patriarchal society) meant that they weren't recorded.

People definitely still associate the word 'jewellery' with females and femininity, and it's interesting the difference in what people (who perceive me as female) think i do with my degree, and what they think my cis male boyfriend does with his identical one. Think benvenuto cellini, william morris or CR ashbee for him and etsy.com for me.

I'm not saying goldsmithing 'belongs' to men or that it's even an inherently gendered pursuit at all, i'm just saying i get a lot of misgendering because of my degree and it helps me to remember the history

I never said patriarchal societies didn't exist.

I implied that it has never managed to stop determined women. And truthfully, becoming well known or famous in the world of art isn't a pushover for anyone. Only a very small few people ever get famous enough to be remembered by history out of all the people who've ever lived, and obviously less women would have been recognized because less of them were in the fields of doing things which earned fame. Now I would suggest women outnumber men professionally in the arts in aggregate.

As for art-crafts being historically of less value, because made by women - in most historical societies there were was overall a greater need for the essentials of life than for art. e.g. In a warlike nation, warriors, not artists (whatever their gender), are typically valued more because they are needed more - and rightfully so, in such an environment. And since most major nations and organizations of human beings have been generally warlike throughout human history over land and resources until fairly recently (but still very much at it) I'm not surprised fine arts (or hobby crafts) were never considered particularly important compared to professions like soldiery, construction, farming. When it comes to survival, they are not. Arts thrive in times of safety and prosperity, which is why there's been greater recognition and explosion of it more recently than not. A warrior or politician is going to be held in higher esteem than a cloth-maker, important as the cloth-maker may be, thanks to the human psyche which tends to respect power and require leadership.

So no, I don't think arts and crafts are considered 'lower' because women did them. They are lower because they were able to thrive and advance only when paid for by a stable society. They are not necessities. As an artist myself I know I am only able to make a living out of it because currently there is stability and prosperity enough, and enough people doing other essential things to allow me to pursue it. If something happens that tanks the world economy few people will be considering art and crafts especially needful, and it's not because society looks down on women or what they make.