How ID Laws Disenfranchise Transgender Voters

Brentin Mock, Apr 1, 2016

http://www.citylab.com/politics/2016/04/how-id-laws-disenfranchise-transgender-voters/476511/

Part of the grand short-sightedness of voter ID laws is that they depend upon obsolete notions of fixed identity for participation rights in a democracy premised, in many ways, on changing identities. People change their minds about politics, which is why we have elections every few years. People frequently move, or get evicted, or foreclosed on, and change addresses. Names change when people marry or get divorced. Names and appearances can change when people undergo a gender transition or come to identify as "non binary," falling somewhere between genders.

None of these changes invalidate people's eligibility to to cast votes, but voter ID laws certainly make elections tougher for the people experiencing these transitions. And few voters have as much trouble on Election Day in voter ID states than transgender people.

I can't wait until the day we can just use our fingerprint for all forms of ID.

Quote from: alienbodybuilder on April 03, 2016, 09:10:34 PM
I can't wait until the day we can just use our fingerprint for all forms of ID.

Um, no. How would that solve the voter ID problem? It would just link to the same data we already have. States control birth certificates, drivers licenses and other licenses. All that removes is the possibility of losing your ID.

This is one of those times I'm on the conservative side.
We need to show ID for bank accounts, to get a driver's license (Think that over, you need ID to get ID!), get cigarettes, buy a car, buy liquor, or even take out a library book.
Why the EFF not to vote?
Why does it suddenly matter that you must prove who you are, that you're not voting in place of the dead, or in multiple districts...? 

Now, if it's a more pedestrian concern about being tracked, then I agree that there's an issue with being tracked. We're not units of data, cogs in their infernal machine, tax cattle to be fleeced and killed as our overlords decree.
But to argue over proving you're eligible to vote (not a foreigner) and aren't voting two or three or fifteen times? I don't see having ID as an unreasonable burden. (The whole DMV "Five Points" stuff, that's a different question, and it DOES get asinine. It only affects those who try to follow the law, as those who intend to break it are already going to have fraudulent information and IDs anyway. Identity theft...?)

BTW, using a fingerprint, like getting a chip injected into you, is a bit too evil for me. Like how we microchip our dogs. And it's too easy to make those chips do other things to us, too. Since the Pre-trials are already HAPPENING in India (Remote Control Birth Control + Bill Gates)....  I have issues with that. It's NEVER "IF" these things will be abused.  It's "WHEN."
First abuse of presidential power, for example? "Whiskey Rebellion", put down by Mr. George Washington. "HOW DARE THOSE SIMPLE PEASANT FARMERS THINK THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PAY TAXES WITH FEDERAL MONEY! WE'LL SHOW THOSE INGRATES WHAT FREEDOM MEANS!!!"

Minority Report.
Equilibrium.
1984.
Left Hand of Darkness.
Surrogates.
The Matrix.
Judge Dredd (either one).
Mad Max (actually had a lot of dystopian themes in the original.)
Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome.
Elysium.
Brazil.
Clockwork Orange.
Doctor Who's Cybermen (repeat characters), and the Daleks.
Tomorrowland (The Tomorrowland People were fixated on injecting Apocaplypse scenarios directly into people's heads, and would allow other wordls to die, just to "preserve" their Utopia. IE, OUR evil is OK. YOUR evil is not.)

No idea how many more I've left out. But I think there's a lot of human nature that we are not accounting for - such as, ensuring "Our Team" wins - regardless of how or why, the winning is all that matters.
A simple parallel is some of us - the drive for GRS. MUST. HAVE. GRS. Yet you still run into the TERFs... Etc. the who;w thing keeps spinning...

-Dianna

Quote from: Dee Marshall on April 04, 2016, 07:21:15 AM
Um, no. How would that solve the voter ID problem? It would just link to the same data we already have. States control birth certificates, drivers licenses and other licenses. All that removes is the possibility of losing your ID.

So we know who owns us, right...?  :-)
"States control...."
Not to mention, this has already been done, and the car thieves? Took the man's finger. Needed his fingerprint to drive the car, so they cut off his finger... 
We already have skimmers and   Forget the name, but it'll ping RFIDs and grab the chip info so you can clone the chip - like cloning a cell phone.  Used on credit cards already - why not use it on personal chips, too? ("The Expanse" shows that sort of thing, BTW, but the credit card system proves it's happening already.) 
A whole new means of Identity Theft....

Maybe we need to work on actually eliminating the criminal classes, instead of making them a part of our system...? E.G., what good is pretending we have a country, when the borders are porous and the government wants "cheap labor" (inflated low-skill labor pool plus low-wage skilled labor via H1-B) and the border patrol is told to stand down? (Yet they can have a roadblock up to 200 miles from the effing border to check for "immigration" violations. WTF? Who's fooling who? a (not allowed) 2 year old can tell this ain't kosher.)

To poke at Tomorrowland's final tag line, make sure you're feeding the right wolf. We've made a habit of feeding the wrong one - our greed and venality gets the better of us far too quickly.



Mod edit- degrading words not allowed TOS 5

At least in NY, you don't have to prove you're a citizen or even in the country legally to get a driver's license. You do need to give an address and signature to get on the voter rolls.

In many of the same places that require IDs to vote the officials have made it difficult for people they think will vote against their party to get those IDs. Do I think that it's absolutely wrong to require them? No.  Do I think the rule will be abused? Absolutely!

When it comes to "voter fraud," the push for voter ID a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Except it's not, because it's a solution to a problem the powerful find all too real: that the "wrong" people are able to vote: poor people, people of color, the elderly, citizens who don't speak English well, etc.  Reactioanary forces in the US do better when fewer people are able to vote.

That's not my idea of democracy.

Quote from: Tysilio on April 04, 2016, 05:28:53 PM
When it comes to "voter fraud," the push for voter ID a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Except it's not, because it's a solution to a problem the powerful find all too real: that the "wrong" people are able to vote: poor people, people of color, the elderly, citizens who don't speak English well, etc.  Reactioanary forces in the US do better when fewer people are able to vote.

That's not my idea of democracy.

Yet they aren't discriminated against in getting ID for bank accounts, library cards, liquor, or tobacco?

If we didn't have stories of places like California allowing Illegal Immigrants to vote, it would be less of a concern.
Or Indiana....  Or - MASSACHUSETTS. Where I live, and where "they" (your poor, disenfranchised "minorities") yap about how many times they've voted and how they're being paid. AT. THE. POLLS.

I think it's appropriate to have to prove who you are, and that you're allowed to vote. I ALSO think you should have to prove a real income, though. But I agree with Franklin, that we don't want people to become complacent in poverty - but rather, to give them drive to climb out. AND the jobs...  Let's not make it ridiculous!
But I'm the type who thinks overall, the government IS the problem.
Which I think you echo, WRT the IDs: Making sure the "wrong people" DON'T vote. E.G., KKK, Black Panthers, Democrats, Whites, Native Americans, Socialists, (Etc - any & all groups you can identify.)
I have issues with them tracking our library books, votes (different from confirming the person is eligible to vote), party affiliation, Facebook posts, bank activity, etc, etc, etc. - mostly because it turns into "Laws for thee, but not for me." E.G., Clinton, Bush, Etc.

How hard is it to go get the driver's license you need to buy alcohol, open a bank account, buy tobacco, or get a library card? You're telling me no Hispanics or Blacks smoke or drink...? And there are no poor whites...? 

Now, if you wanted to talk purely economic angel, that you could make work: That (I forget how much now) is a significantly larger percentage to a person with a $24K/year income, than a person with a $50K or $100K/year income. But it's like $20, I think - which can be huge percentage wise, but still isn't exactly going to stop someone who needs to get an ID.

Perhaps we should refine rather than abandon the idea.  I'm not too wild about a Czarist Russian or a Caliphate Iranian determining who should lead my country - and I'm not too interested in telling them who they should vote for  (or accept as leader), either.  :-)  "MYOB," right?  Like we shouldn't be telling the British who should be Queen (or King), and they shouldn't be telling us who should be president.  Their opinions, sure, as to why would be better and why - but orders?
No.
Central control is essentially NEVER a good idea, beyond the basic (small size) tribe.

-Dianna

The title of this thread clearly defines the concern and objects of discrimination, transgender voters.  No more political theater needs to be introduced.

Voter ID laws are unfair and a burden and especially impact people like us and other less economically influential voters.

During my transition there was a years time when my ID did not match.  Getting that ID congruent cost time, a court appointment, letters from doctors and real dollars. 

Would it be OK if i, and others like me, and people with less means are prevented from voting?  Is it OK that these unnecessary laws disproportionally impact poor and minority voters ?

Poor and minority people may not have a car or drivers license and are then disenfranchised.  If we cannot understand that we are perhaps living in our own first world bubble where political theater is just amusing fun.

Well said, Tessa!

Economic status (or rather the lack of it) is very much to the point in this thread, given how many of us live in poverty or close to it. We can't get decent jobs because we're trans or are unable to work because we're disabled (often from some form of physical or emotional abuse, or just from the emotional toll of trying to function in a society which rejects us).  Once you start adding age, being a person of color -- and/or a student, another group disproportionately affected by voter ID laws -- to the fact that so many of us are just plain unable to get ID that matches who we are -- you're approaching a Class 5 perfect storm of disenfranchisement.

Quote from: steyraug96How hard is it to go get the driver's license you need to buy alcohol, open a bank account, buy tobacco, or get a library card? You're telling me no Hispanics or Blacks smoke or drink...? And there are no poor whites...?

Now, if you wanted to talk purely economic angel, that you could make work: That (I forget how much now) is a significantly larger percentage to a person with a $24K/year income, than a person with a $50K or $100K/year income. But it's like $20, I think - which can be huge percentage wise, but still isn't exactly going to stop someone who needs to get an ID.

First off, don't be setting up straw men such as "You're telling me no Hispanics or Blacks smoke or drink...? And there are no poor whites...?"  You know perfectly well that I never said anything of the sort; either that, or your reading comprehension is seriously deficient.

Secondly, I don't think you quite have the concept of "poverty." I would be totally blissed out if I made $24k a year, and I don't (quite) consider myself poor.

To get a DL, you have to be able to drive, which means having access to a car and to the time it takes to go to the DMV (which may be a long bus ride away and have hours such that you'd have to take time off work) to get a learner's permit; and the time it takes to actually learn, get tested, and get the license. That's all pretty hard to do if you're working a couple of minimum-wage jobs just to get by -- there just aren't that many hours in a day. Many states issue IDs which aren't licenses, but it still takes time and money to get them. Then, you're still taking public transportation everywhere, which can easily take an hour or more to travel a distance you can cover in a few minutes in a car -- and it isn't cheap, when a round trip can easily cost 6-10 dollars. And you'd better hope your polling place is on a bus route, especially if you're elderly or infirm.

Many poor people can't get a checking account, or even a savings account, in the first place, because they don't have the cash on hand they need to open one, or because they're disqualified for some other reason. This means that every financial transaction they need to make costs them more money than it costs you: they have to go to a check-cashing store to cash a paycheck, paying a sizable fee or percentage each time; they have to pay phone and utility bills in the same place, and pay fees for that; and then, of course, they're carrying cash around for everything (pay-as-you go "credit cards" are really expensive), so they're very vulnerable to being robbed.

I hope you're starting to get the picture. Poverty is expensive and time-consuming, which makes getting to the polls hard enough. Deliberate attempts to male voting still harder are despicable.

The problem isn't having to show ID, but that some states make it hard to update ID. Fix the root problem rather than opening the door to voter fraud. Some say that it is a non-issue, but that is nonsense. How can one know if something is a problem if they don't even have a way of detecting the problem? That would be like a store doing no inventory control (tracking product received vs. sold/damaged/on shelf/etc...) or loss prevention and claiming that shoplifting was not a problem.

As for IDs, when Georgia tried to pass such a law, they offered to provide them free of cost to those who "couldn't afford" one, but that didn't stop the nonsense claims of "disenfranchising" the poor. I remember reading about a guy who traveled across the country to testify in DC how it was too difficult for him to obtain an ID. How then did he get to DC and into government buildings without showing ID? Perhaps, he was being less than honest?

There are a few ways to fix this. My preferred method is a federal ID. This already exists in a sense as you can get a Passport or Passport card, but those are a bit expensive and require one to be a US citizen.

QuotePeople change their minds about politics, which is why we have elections every few years. People frequently move, or get evicted, or foreclosed on, and change addresses.

Yes...and one can easily change party affiliations and address. Here, you can do party changes and changes of address for voter registration online. They ask for your DL/ID number, so I assume they cross-check with the DMV to prevent fraud. You can also change your address on your DL/ID online easily. I did that the last couple of times I moved. Only negative is there is a small ($20 or so) fee to print a new License/ID.

QuoteNames change when people marry or get divorced. Names and appearances can change when people undergo a gender transition or come to identify as "non binary," falling somewhere between genders.

Changing name on IDs is quite easy (though time consuming if you have to update multiple IDs) with a legal name change. Here in Florida a name change is expensive (though, supposedly you can get it a lot cheaper by applying if you are really poor) and takes time, but can be done. I would like to see that process made quicker, easier, and cheaper. Eliminate the pointless court appearance requirement. All they did at my court appearance was ask the same questions that were on the form, check my ID (to verify I am the one who filed), and sign the order.

As for gender changes, in Florida they require a letter from an MD stating you are undergoing transition. Basically, the same standard as for a US Passport. I would like to see this requirement removed all together or at least reduced to a letter from a therapist and gender removed from Driver's Licenses (it could be stored in the database if they could find a justifiable reason to need it). Storing it in the database, but not on the card itself eliminates the need to print a new license when one changes gender and would also make it possible to change gender without having to go into the DMV in person. While, I would love to see them offer options for those who do not fit into the gender binary, I don't see that happening. Removing gender from IDs all together is probably the best option all around.

Another commenter mentioned fingerprints being used. I don't have a problem with that facially, but I would be concerned they might be adding them to NCIC or whatever database they store prints in. Not a problem in my case since I've had to be printed multiple times for licenses, jobs/to get access to certain govt properties, name change, etc...and they already have mine, but it could raise a legitimate privacy issue.

I think this topic has run its course. Locked.