I'm going to be very careful here.  You know I get political, you know I get controversial, you know I get passionate.

I have absolutely no intent of messing anything up.

I had always dreamed of there being a bridge between the mtf trans, the ftm trans, and the nonbinaries.   In real life, where I go, which is Trans AA meetings, there is no need for a bridge at all. 

There is only Trans.  And a desire to overcome the hellish odds we face just trying to live a life without being hurt.

It was the unity I sought before everything went to heck a couple years ago.  We tried to build a bridge, and it totally went wrong.  The players in that drama appear to have departed, those remaining, perhaps can do it.

Maybe you already did, and maybe I am interfering with something that shouldn't be touched.

Has it gotten better?   There are so many sweet people on this site, people that deserve respect and love, so many.

I always feel conflicted, here I am, an avowed nonbinary transperson.  On the one hand, out on the street full girl when she wants to be, fully passing, and sometimes even pretty.  On the other hand, in my fluidity of gender expression (but not my core.... I finally found my core though) -- in that fluidity I am totally comfortable as an androgyne.  As a male, around other males.... not so much.  Nope.  Cant get there, but there is a part of me that is very much he.  And another that is very much she.  And in reality, its all just me, there is no split in my gender.  I am all of myself now.  And I love it.

But the confliction is that I can so easily see the mtf side.  I could so easily live as a woman full time if I chose to do so, and to accept the collateral damage that would come with it.  Live socially that is.  Privately, and in this body that I wear now, I am fully a transitioned transperson.  And the only reason I won't say transsexual is because that is associated, right or wrong, with being binary, a woman trapped in a mans body so to speak, that whole reality.

I know transpeople who are truly binary.  I am not one of them, yet, I am one of them too, when I am full out.  Its funny, its amazing.  The lines blur as age of transition goes forward, I am three now, in that sense, or 17?  Puberty has been ...funny...

But I also know many transpeople that accept that they are more than just binary.  They live full time girl, full out girl, they  have the op, they will tell you they are women.  But they also acknowledge that they are not cis females.  They are transpeople.

And there is the bridge between nonbinary trans and binary trans.   Its in that grey area.

I live full time me.  That means full time, I am well aware of my body, I never wear mens underthings, I have accute body dysphoria, and at the same time, I pass as a guy.  How funny.  Its not an act its the part I am allowing them to see.

And full out she, its not an act either, not by any stretch of the imagination.

The core watches this simultanous fully integrated new gender, and smiles at it.

Pronoun me she, sh'e or they, its all real.  She is music in my ears, sh'e when you use it, is validation and extreme respect for who I really am...

But people get afraid.   Is it over?  Did we finally get past this stuff and just let each other live their own understandings of being trans without telling them how they have to live it, or what box they are in?

It feels different to me over here now.  Did the culture change to acceptance and freedom from fear?  What a glorious thing that would be, if acceptance reigned supreme, and love was triumph.

It is the love of trans that will save the lives of trans.  Not the rage, the anger, the politics. 

The bonding of common perils.  The overcoming of the odds.  The freedom to be real.

The true diamonds of Trans.

-Satin Joy

Im going to let you see something i normally dont show in a nonbinary section.

Im gunna put my pic up of what i look like full out she.

For a little while...

SJ

I can't speak for others, but i know I have grown over the last 2 years and changed for the better I feel in that time. I like to believe that we are even more understanding, compassionate and considerate of others than we were then too. The bridge you refer to is made up of everyone because the only way to build that bridge and maintain it is to do those things. I like to believe we have all gained those things during that time and that we have learned from each other in away that allows all to do those things for each other. All of us are trans and make up a very diverse group of wonderful people. That fight and struggle that we have all had to fight up against at one point another to be who we are and to be able to live whoever we like or need to. I have a lot of admiration for my non binary friends who sometimes struggle to find that balance or spot in regards to their gender and even more so for those of them who are genderfluid. Hugs
Mariah

Everyone needs to determine who they are and what are their definitions. I certainly have no say over anyone's life or how they lead it. It's none of my business. Hopefully, I can help people get through their tough times. That IS the reason I am here. I'm just trying to provide some help along the way... help I found severely lacking when I transitioned. So, where am I going with this? I don't have a clue other than to say that there are people here who are willing to help out, PM late at night, whatever can be done in such a forum to help others get through the day, week, month, or a year. I have seen many blossom here. I feel much joy in seeing that happen. May you share in that joy.

May we all share in it...

I have lifelong friends from here.  There was a sad story, long ago,  that is long past.

Indeed, my life was saved here first.

Now i change visible gender again...

But yes ...

Hormones and old hurts.  Give me time to heal.

Sj.

Gosh do you remember the really old days...the 70s and 80s?  We had no help at all.

Then the forums came and we found others like us.

And the whole world opened up.

I really never give any differences a thought. I was a Hippie and forever remain a Hippie. As a Hippie our understanding of the human species is to accept all no matter how you perceive yourself. At the moment I have elevated my Hippie being into the  realm of transgender Hippie. I have in a sense transcended Hippie to become a trans Hippie. Peace and love.

I think that the community here at Susan's is diverse enough that we truly represent a spectrum.  I see several people like me; strongly identifying with a gender they weren't assigned, but not labeling themselves as such.  I don't consider myself to be a transwoman, but I'd rather look like one.  So I find myself posting in MTF and crossdressing boards, and feeling like I belong there.  I also act pretty masculine, so I feel comfortable on the FTM boards too; especially where it comes to answering cultural questions.

So really, I don't see much of a divide here.  I've heard some binary folk get confused or frustrated by nonbinary identities in meatspace... but not so much here.  When I see, for example, Dena suggesting to folk that they might benefit from considering more than just the binary, it fills me with warm fuzzies.  Such warm fuzzies. 

This Forum and site is all inclusive.

I see no reason for divisions beyond those of individual members interests and we try to cater for them.

Before I landed at Susan's I had little to no idea of the concept of non-binary. Sure I knew about people who wanted to be "androgynous" and I even flirted with that idea myself in my early 20s but beyond that nothing. So I think it's a great thing to have this forum where I have learned so much, and I hope others have too, about the gender spectrum and how and why some trans people relate to non binary shades of it.

This is very encouraging....

Its a hard thread but i needed to talk about it.

At some point ill say what happened to me, why it did.  Not to cause division but to find ways to grow and heal.

The feelings run so deeply it has to be done right.  It has to be written without bitterness.

Itll be a long post.  I had dreamed of uniting binary and nonbinary trans for a long time. 

Perhaps while i was away, others found the way to do it.   It feels different now, since i was away.

Looking forward to other posts.  And thank you for sharing, each of you.

Satinjoy

Thanks for this thread. I'm really trying to figure out where I am on this spectrum. My therapist recently gave me a paper written by a couple who were both therapists. They had 2 daughters, one which firmly identified as a girl and a second who struggled. She didn't fit in. As you can imagine the parents tried hard to help her find her way. Tomboy, lesbian, TransMan. There was a need for everyone to try and pin things down as one thing or another. They were all distressed by the uncertainty. Trying to put their daughter in a box. She as well struggled with the binary.
In the end the conclusion was to admit NOT the uncertainty but the NONcertainy. Noncertainty is a place in which she could reside. It doesn't require resolution, it just is.
After reading this paper I felt better. I can't yet reside in that noncertain spot but I need to try. It may be what saves me since I've no idea where I fit and keep searching for solid ground when quite possibly there is none.



Claire (née Dori)

Quote from: dori on April 05, 2016, 06:54:25 PM
After reading this paper I felt better. I can't yet reside in that noncertain spot but I need to try. It may be what saves me since I've no idea where I fit and keep searching for solid ground when quite possibly there is none.

I'm a bit unclear why it matters where you fit? I'm curious where I fit, but it doesn't much bother me apart from practical concerns.

Quote from: Satinjoy on April 04, 2016, 08:40:17 PM
Gosh do you remember the really old days...the 70s and 80s?  We had no help at all.

Uh, yeah! Had there been a resource like this at my fingertips, my life would be vastly different now. I'm not wishing to go back knowing what I know now, but it is hard to not think about from time to time. It is for this very reason, I enjoy spending some time here each day. Believe me, it is not a selfless thing for my life is greatly enriched. Perhaps I can do for someone else what I could not find, even from professional medical people. That's life for you. I'm glad you are back and I do look forward to reading about your experience. You too may be able to help someone along the way.

Ive been busy....reaching out.

Lol a lot of nb is what we are not....not male, not female.

Then we find ourselves, but not by finding definitions.  We do it by living.  Feeling.

Sharing ourselves as we learn to trust opening up.

Vulnerability and honesty is everything.  Trust, a safe environment.  Without that it all crumbles.

That is our task.  Our dream.

Quote from: AnonyMs on April 05, 2016, 08:36:36 PM
I'm a bit unclear why it matters where you fit? I'm curious where I fit, but it doesn't much bother me apart from practical concerns.

Some of us need certainty in our lives. I wish I could experiment more with NB but I have a tough time imagining my life in the middle. I have spent my life living flying under the radar. Both ends of the spectrum provide some mental protection, probably misplaced but there non the less. I'm scared about transition but I think I may be more scared about being in the middle. A lot of folks here are seriously worried about passing because they don't want to be the outsider. They want to belong. Sorry if I'm not making sense.

Quote from: dori on April 06, 2016, 06:24:07 AM
Some of us need certainty in our lives.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure finding a NB label introduces any measure of certainty. These labels are entirely self-classified. It's not clear that one person who identifies as agender, for example, bears any resemblance to any other person who identifies that way. What may feel like agender to me might feel genderfluid for someone else, and binary MtF to a third person.

These labels are not classifications or diagnoses. They are descriptions of our experience. As such, I don't see how they could bring about much certainty.

I understood non-binary to be more how you identify internally rather than how you present yourself to others? I guess I'd be non-binary in my external presentation - I present male to others, but only because I hide the female parts so very effectively. I'd be very noticeable if I didn't do that.

However this is not really my ideal, but a practical consideration as its so socially difficult to do otherwise. I fear presenting non-binary due to social reasons, and I don't want to present female right now for other reasons. I do have a very strong desire not to stand out, and if I'm at all non-binary internally I don't think its strong enough to not notice compared to the need to conform.

I believe I'm binary internally as I have no desire to be non-binary and I'd like to be female. I can't say I feel female or male internally, I no longer understand what that means. The thing that puzzles me is that I'm reasonably comfortable with my external presentation right now, and I'd have thought it would cause many trans people a lot of discomfort. I can look in a mirror without freaking out. Unless I actually fully transition I don't think I'll ever know for sure.

I don't have an need to have a label for myself. Its a tool to help thinking and communication, but I am what I am and no label is going to change that.

I really don't for anywhere on the trans train,i've always presented as me and never cared of anyone likes it or not. Today I went to brkfst with my son wearing bed pants and a t and no-one said a word in the restaurant about it. I'm me I can be a Tom boy one min and a girly girl the next,beside topside I'm female,downstairs all man,I can pass as a transwoman or a trans male.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on April 05, 2016, 09:30:21 PM
Uh, yeah! Had there been a resource like this at my fingertips, my life would be vastly different now. I'm not wishing to go back knowing what I know now, but it is hard to not think about from time to time. It is for this very reason, I enjoy spending some time here each day. Believe me, it is not a selfless thing for my life is greatly enriched. Perhaps I can do for someone else what I could not find, even from professional medical people. That's life for you. I'm glad you are back and I do look forward to reading about your experience. You too may be able to help someone along the way.

Oh yes Cindi, medical professionals were rarely better informed back then.  I worked in the system and tried to find help but found further stereotypes applied and was treated as an object of curiosity and as just another sissy gay man.  As in government, citizens and consumers have led the way to a better informed culture and health care systems.

So many terms seem antiquated and as Satinjoy implies being not this and not that does little to promote clarity.  I love the idea of uncertainty and the broadest most inclusive definitions of what is female and male.  I imagine a future time when anatomy, gender and sexual orientation are simply not important to our overall destiny.  What is wrong with not knowing or having questions and curiosity about one another?  Dogs sniff butts, kids show each what they have and play "doctor."  We seem to weigh it all down with heavy meaning and more than a bit of flesh deserves.

Some men do wear what they want without regard to gender.  Women in the modern world have worn what they like for decades.  Of course it's more than clothing, style or mannerisms, it is our identity and shouldn't that be uniquely individual?

And why should gender matter anyway?  If we are looking at love connections and reproduction, well dating was made for those kinds of interactive discoveries right?  If we are simply looking at our potential for making positive contributions to the community then there are no limits based on gender IMO.

Here at Susan's we have been the vanguard of gender exploration and that effort to promote light and understanding can sometimes produce heat too.  As they say at my dog park; more wag, less bite.