No, I'm not saying that YOU think that crafts are lower, or that particular arts or crafts are for women I'm saying that it's a documented attitude that is part of the history of art, and it's pretty naive to say that women and their interests aren't looked down upon in society

Also putting 'patriarchy' in inverted commas made it seem like you were trying to be dismissive of the term, if that wasn't your intention, my bad.

My original point was that people perceive J+S to be feminine, and while there are many women in the field (as i mentioned almost the entire goldsmithing department was female), in my experience of the industry beyond people who are still studying or are hobbyist, particularly in the more traditional areas of the field, there are as many or more successful men, and there was definitely a historical bias towards males. I'm not sure anymore what your actual point is. It's nice to come to a support forum and have your personal experiences of your own career dismissed, thanks for that.

I know. But speculation and opinion pieces by people in the art world are a dime a dozen & are not evidence that the entirety of human history and culture thinks and believes arts and crafts are lame because women do them. I also didn't say that women and their interests are not looked down upon by society - I said that in times of less prosperity and safety arts and crafts will be discarded because they are not as important as security, food and shelter. Not because it's a "woman's thing". Arts are disposable and are worth only what somebody is willing to pay for them, and people know this. This is just logical fact and is nothing to do with sexism. Some people may look down on them because women do them, but men also do them, and on the whole this is not why arts are not considered "important".

I am not dismissive of the term Patriarchy but the phrase "because Patriarchy" I see used often to assert that a patriarchy exists and always has existed for the sole purpose of screwing women over to the benefit of men, and use it as an excuse for everything. I added that patriarchal societies screw everyone over, including men, and that there are likely many reasons behind why women were less represented in the arts beside mustache-twirling Patriarchs. Historically it was difficult for anybody to get into the arts unless they were part of a family business having done it for generations, or managed to snag a rich patron. Usually the church or a royal family for things like painting and jewelry making and would have been subject to the whims and tastes of the patron. Being an artist or artisan in Michelangelo's or Mozart's time was not so flattering as today. It was considered menial work and creativity took a back seat to the patron's demands most of the time. When you look into it, it's not surprising only the most gifted or determined people tended to stick it out as a profession, and those born into it had little choice.

Also, what? Who dismissed your personal experiences? What I countered was your assertions about 'Patriarchy' preventing women ever being celebrated as artists, but I'm sure you were not around in the historical past so me talking about that, or about society at large, hardly dismisses your personal experiences. I wasn't talking about your career, is that what you find offensive? I don't believe I said anything that was personally offensive or dismissive.

I am not denying men historically held more professions and recognitions, but as I said those were tougher times when people's lives were typically short, women had many children early and men had to work to support them. There are logical reasons why women weren't in the workplace in such numbers, and therefore why there were less professionally recognized artistic women; only as quality of life and longevity of life have improved have both men and women been freed from rigid roles and divisions of labor. And that's not really because some 'Patriarchy' concocted it... it's because biology shackled women with having children and men with providing for them, and both with the burden of doing it in order to be seen as productive members of their society. Then women being frowned upon for wanting to be artists not mothers, and men being frowned on for wanting to do the same and not being lucrative workers would come in. It's less some mass-organized evil scheme to keep women from ever doing anything 'great' and more just the unfortunate state of human biology. That's where sexism itself ultimately comes from.

And if you want proof of that, look at the developed world. Women can be artists, can become recognized, and likely outnumber men in the field now. The necessity of procreating in a harsh world is not there anymore, and they are not 'held back' as artists/artisans. I can see that with my own eyes.

Ah, so you were derailing the thread to talk about the concept of patriarchy then??? why?

Well you brought it up in a thread about hobbies. Was that necessary?

It was mentioned, I decided to talk about it too. What's the problem?

It's odd that my original point was that people are aware that women existed in the arts, to the extent that they assume some of them are feminine by definition, and you decided that I needed to be educated on the definition of patriarchy, and to be reminded that people are aware that women existed in the arts? I'm aware that there are women in the arts now as I've said already twice. This is WHY people associate what I do with women. I just like to remember that this is a relatively new notion. Basically, all you disagreed with was the use of the phrase 'because patriarchy', enough to write three irrelevant paragraphs about it.

I mention patriarchy in passing - literally two words in parenthesis - and you need to write three paragraphs about it... yeah I derailed the thread. Sorry everyone.

The fact that patriarchy is tangential to my post, not the point of the post or the thread, is what makes it seem dismissive to only take that word from the post. I mean your initial response to me asserting that I use the large number of male goldsmiths to shake some of my dysphoria about my work was either to say that actually people are correct to assert that women are more numerous in the field, or to nitpick about the word 'patriarchy'? Neither of those seem like great responses to me, maybe I'm oversensitive, but okay. Now we've all head about some interesting history. I suppose that's a hobby too.

Yes, you do sound rather oversensitive about it.

  Don't let this become personal and stay on topic 

Okay, to get back on topic: I like to collect china, particularly monochrome delftware style stuff. I plant small cacti in teacups. Tiny, delicate teacups that are associated with women - like a lot of interior design items - and (often) designed by men. Some of my favourites are Josiah Spode and Josiah Wedgwood.

I also get really uncomfortable in fabric shops or the haberdashery section in my local department store, because I only really see women there, there's only older women working there, and it seems like a really gendered space, despite the fact that a lot of those fabrics were designed by men like William Morris and Kaffe Fassett. It might not be a logical way to think but dysphoria isn't always logical. I don't really pass and I feel like if I'm appearing androgynous the fact that I'm looking at ribbons or flowery wallpaper pushes me over the edge into female when people see me. 

It helps me to remember that if there are men designing it, there are men buying it too. It's also okay for a masculine person to design things for feminine ones. Alexander McQueen said some pretty cool things about jewellery.

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on April 08, 2016, 07:32:40 PM
I never said patriarchal societies didn't exist.

I implied that it has never managed to stop determined women. And truthfully, becoming well known or famous in the world of art isn't a pushover for anyone. Only a very small few people ever get famous enough to be remembered by history out of all the people who've ever lived, and obviously less women would have been recognized because less of them were in the fields of doing things which earned fame. Now I would suggest women outnumber men professionally in the arts in aggregate.

As for art-crafts being historically of less value, because made by women - in most historical societies there were was overall a greater need for the essentials of life than for art. e.g. In a warlike nation, warriors, not artists (whatever their gender), are typically valued more because they are needed more - and rightfully so, in such an environment. And since most major nations and organizations of human beings have been generally warlike throughout human history over land and resources until fairly recently (but still very much at it) I'm not surprised fine arts (or hobby crafts) were never considered particularly important compared to professions like soldiery, construction, farming. When it comes to survival, they are not. Arts thrive in times of safety and prosperity, which is why there's been greater recognition and explosion of it more recently than not. A warrior or politician is going to be held in higher esteem than a cloth-maker, important as the cloth-maker may be, thanks to the human psyche which tends to respect power and require leadership.

So no, I don't think arts and crafts are considered 'lower' because women did them. They are lower because they were able to thrive and advance only when paid for by a stable society. They are not necessities. As an artist myself I know I am only able to make a living out of it because currently there is stability and prosperity enough, and enough people doing other essential things to allow me to pursue it. If something happens that tanks the world economy few people will be considering art and crafts especially needful, and it's not because society looks down on women or what they make.

That's fascinating what kind of art do you do for a living?

Quote from: Peep on April 09, 2016, 03:39:45 PM
Okay, to get back on topic: I like to collect china, particularly monochrome delftware style stuff. I plant small cacti in teacups. Tiny, delicate teacups that are associated with women - like a lot of interior design items - and (often) designed by men. Some of my favourites are Josiah Spode and Josiah Wedgwood.

I also get really uncomfortable in fabric shops or the haberdashery section in my local department store, because I only really see women there, there's only older women working there, and it seems like a really gendered space, despite the fact that a lot of those fabrics were designed by men like William Morris and Kaffe Fassett. It might not be a logical way to think but dysphoria isn't always logical. I don't really pass and I feel like if I'm appearing androgynous the fact that I'm looking at ribbons or flowery wallpaper pushes me over the edge into female when people see me. 

It helps me to remember that if there are men designing it, there are men buying it too. It's also okay for a masculine person to design things for feminine ones. Alexander McQueen said some pretty cool things about jewellery.

There were many male tailors throughout history, so don't worry about the fabrics. There were also male gardeners and interior decorators. Men have probably designed more things than women throughout history- not because they're better, but because they didn't have to raise children and were more privileged. I have an interest in interior design, and have thought about going to school for that. If I have a very masculine appearance it will be funny to see me as an interior decorator. Not sure if I'm going to do that or not. Right now I've been staining decks.

Don't worry about your hobbies being seen as feminine. There are many cis men that pay no attention to gender stereotypes.

I might be decorating my next apartment like an arctic aquarium with lots of icy blue in it. It will help me remain cool headed. I love the idea of feng suei.

Quote from: alienbodybuilder on April 10, 2016, 08:46:13 PM
That's fascinating what kind of art do you do for a living?

I'm a sculptor, and comic artist/illustrator. Also occasionally make jewellery.

I suppose when you must do it, like me, because there is nothing else I can get around here job wise, you learn that many artistic trades relate to each other and training in one can easily lead to another.

Quote from: Obfuskatie on April 08, 2016, 01:58:33 PM
Maybe you could look at it another way? If you're straight, then you have an excellent way of meeting women through your hobby. IMO, a lot of the things we can be initially insecure about can be superpowers for meeting new people if and when we embrace them.

And I say y'all all the time without having lived a day in the south, because it isn't gendered. Once I knew about not misgendering people and was intensely aware of it being done, I adopted y'all as an easy way of being inclusive.


     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is veeeeery true--in fact I used to encourage my male teenaged students who had trouble dating girls to take up horse back riding.  Their male friends might have made some gay jokes, but they instantly became every girl's dream guy and had dozens of athletic, attractive, wealthy teen girls all over them, LOL!  There is definitely something to be said for being a male horseback rider when it comes to getting women.  Unfortunately there also tend to be a huge number of socially conservative people who ride horses, so I am not 100% sure that will carry over for me... Here is to hoping, as I am bisexual!

Interestingly enough, all of the comments about goldsmithing apply similarly to horseback riding.  Originally a military pursuit, riding slowly became a leisure activity pursued primarily by wealthy men.  Over the past fifty years the amateur arenas have filled up with women, but professionals are still primarily men.  This is not because men have any advantages that make them better riders but simply due to the traditional nature of the sport.  That is slowly fading, but it is certainly interesting to see how women were forcibly kept out of a sport that they are obviously drawn to (since most amateurs are now female) for so long simply do to the idea that it was not appropriate for women to mount a large animal in the way necessary to be an effective rider.  But it has VERY quickly become regarded as a female pass time despite its history as a very patriarchal sport (some foxhunts still do not allow women riders).  So in very wealthy circles (think top one percenters) it is thought of as a masculine sport (which is were most professional riders come from) and in other socioeconomic groups it is considered feminine because it involves animals.  The real question being, why the heck are we gendering this sport at all???  It is neither masculine or feminine, it's just a sport!

Quote from: FtMitch on April 11, 2016, 04:14:56 PM
Interestingly enough, all of the comments about goldsmithing apply similarly to horseback riding.  Originally a military pursuit, riding slowly became a leisure activity pursued primarily by wealthy men.  Over the past fifty years the amateur arenas have filled up with women, but professionals are still primarily men.  This is not because men have any advantages that make them better riders but simply due to the traditional nature of the sport.  That is slowly fading, but it is certainly interesting to see how women were forcibly kept out of a sport that they are obviously drawn to (since most amateurs are now female) for so long simply do to the idea that it was not appropriate for women to mount a large animal in the way necessary to be an effective rider.  But it has VERY quickly become regarded as a female pass time despite its history as a very patriarchal sport (some foxhunts still do not allow women riders).  So in very wealthy circles (think top one percenters) it is thought of as a masculine sport (which is were most professional riders come from) and in other socioeconomic groups it is considered feminine because it involves animals.  The real question being, why the heck are we gendering this sport at all???  It is neither masculine or feminine, it's just a sport!

I used to ride a lot as a child/ early teen and i wanted to pursue it as a career (racing) but didn't because literally everyone said i was too weak to do it. I don't mind that much because I don't really like horse racing any more. But I am the same size as a lot of male jockeys haha

sidenote i used to like wearing my riding body protector a lot because it flattened my chest P:

Quote from: FtMitch on April 11, 2016, 04:14:56 PM
Interestingly enough, all of the comments about goldsmithing apply similarly to horseback riding.  Originally a military pursuit, riding slowly became a leisure activity pursued primarily by wealthy men.  Over the past fifty years the amateur arenas have filled up with women, but professionals are still primarily men.  This is not because men have any advantages that make them better riders but simply due to the traditional nature of the sport.  That is slowly fading, but it is certainly interesting to see how women were forcibly kept out of a sport that they are obviously drawn to (since most amateurs are now female) for so long simply do to the idea that it was not appropriate for women to mount a large animal in the way necessary to be an effective rider.  But it has VERY quickly become regarded as a female pass time despite its history as a very patriarchal sport (some foxhunts still do not allow women riders).  So in very wealthy circles (think top one percenters) it is thought of as a masculine sport (which is were most professional riders come from) and in other socioeconomic groups it is considered feminine because it involves animals.  The real question being, why the heck are we gendering this sport at all???  It is neither masculine or feminine, it's just a sport!

I suspect it must be the part of the country you live in. In Arizona horses are still somewhat a way of life if you have the place to keep on. Property that's zoned to allow horses is a premium and there is enough desert access where you can ride that both boys and girls have an interest in horses. Show may be a bit different but there are rodeo completion for both genders if they desire it.

Quote from: Dena on April 11, 2016, 10:57:12 PM
I suspect it must be the part of the country you live in. In Arizona horses are still somewhat a way of life if you have the place to keep on. Property that's zoned to allow horses is a premium and there is enough desert access where you can ride that both boys and girls have an interest in horses. Show may be a bit different but there are rodeo completion for both genders if they desire it.

Oh no you are definitely correct about rodeo-I am from Texas and that is the same way here.  I was talking about it from the sense of the Olympic sport, though, so English varieties.  Dressage, eventing, show jumping, etc.  Western is a whole different sport and culture.  I really don't know much about it because I'm not really a fan--I prefer jumping. 

Hey man, fellow horsey dude here! I've ridden since I was 10 years old, unfortunately my horse was pts last July and I haven't really ridden since.. but I'm planning on getting back into it I think it's part of the reason most of my friends have been female over the years cause its such a female-dominated hobby, and I get really sick of the cattiness you can get on yards. Over the years though I've had lots of cis male friends who I've ridden with too, they get a load of stick for doing a "girly" sport so I guess we can look at it like we're just having the issues any other equestrian guy has

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on April 11, 2016, 03:53:38 PM
I'm a sculptor, and comic artist/illustrator. Also occasionally make jewellery.

I suppose when you must do it, like me, because there is nothing else I can get around here job wise, you learn that many artistic trades relate to each other and training in one can easily lead to another.

I'm impressed.

Sorry your having a hard time. People have many times told me "your not trans/manly enough" because I have female dominate hobbies, major, and jobs. I'm a family consumer science education major (a.k.a. home ec teacher) and I knit/paint/cook/garden as hobbies. I think people are more lenient with my "feminine" hobbies/career because I'm gay, I imagine people are even more judgmental towards strait men.

When people give me a hard time I try to remember that I should do what makes me happy no matter what they think and that I make knitting look manly lol

Quote from: CrazyCatMan on April 13, 2016, 10:10:29 PM
When people give me a hard time I try to remember that I should do what makes me happy no matter what they think and that I make knitting look manly lol

Back when I used to knit more (generally more of a casual sewing/papercraft person), I'd find myself drawn to online patterns from guy knitters.  Probably because they were usually less about lace and/or cuteness than a lot of the patterns you find in a casual search.