Quote from: Rejennyrated on April 13, 2016, 03:41:25 AM
Let me put to you a possible alternative way of looking at this.

When you can't make a decision about something you are like a tourist standing at a crossroads unable to determine which road to take. The trouble is if you stand there indefinitely you still wont know because no one else on the road knows which of the two destinations available you would like.

The only way to solve that is to choose a road and walk down it for a while and see if it brings you to a place you like. Now in your situation you seem to have been walking down the road which should lead to cis maledom for all your life and yet you still have these doubts - so its a fair bet that that may not be the right road - and that is why it keeps bringing you back to the crossroads or decision.

So one way to approach this is to try the alternative for a while and see where that takes you. If you dont feel better, then at least you will have then explored the territory and answered the nagging question, and if you do then its a good bet that you are doing something right.

Thanks. That is a good way to put it and I would agree if my decisions only affected me. That is not the case. Any decision I make will affect other people too. People I love and care for. What right do I have to make that kind of choice?

"What right do others have to stop you making a choice you need to make?"

It's not others stopping me. It is me stopping me. I don't feel right about making such a big decision that could change the course of someone else's life. It feels wrong to me.

You can stop yourself. But this course of action appears to make you desperately unhappy. I would think that a lot of people you care about are aware to differing degrees of your unhappiness. If you were to make a decision that -perhaps - would make you happier, do you think that people who know you and care about you would want to stop you being happier?

I get your comments about the growing up with self doubt, having your deeds, words and actions always belittled or doubted. But we have to try and break away from those memories that tell us we're not up up it, no good, or whatever. They hold us back and make us miserable. We are better than that.

Put yourself first, a give yourself a chance........?

As others have said a few times there is a solution to this and that is to start HRT.  The mental relief will come quickly if in fact you are trans and not something else.

Maybe you fear the answer because of its implications?  But knowing will be better than not knowing and living in the constant state of mental turmoil of second guessing yourself.

Physical changes are slow and need not be detectable to anyone for a long long time.  There are ways to mitigate them anyway if that's what you want so nobody ever need know.

You have tried everything else so what other option is left other than continuing to feel as you do now?  Imagine still feeling like this in five years.  Then in ten years and so on right up until the last day 30 or 40 years from now.  Is that really the preferable course?  Is simply trying the one possible course of action to give you peace of mind and some degree of certainty really so horrible?  Maybe it is for you and only you can answer that.  By taking the first option there is certainty.  Life will remain much as it is now.  You will find ways to cope that bring temporary stability but overall you will feel conflicted and depressed for the rest of your life.  With the second option, HRT, there is possible mental relief and a feeling of happiness.  Beyond that relief and potential happiness is a fog through which you cannot see.  What is the end state?   For the most part though you will be in control of where that end state leads.  It can lead wherever you decide.  But you will be in control then.

One thing that would help right now is to stop seeing yourself as a mental defective.  No, it is not the norm and no, it isn't something that one  would desire.  But it is not a defect.  It is simply an unusual alternative.  A defect would cause some degree of reduced functioning to the system, either mental or physical.  This does neither and the only reduced functioning is that externally imposed through societal pressure and self censure.  Breaking this mental self image of "defect" will help and while it will not solve the issue it will allow you to move forward with some degree of confidence.

I like to think of these words from Fleetwood Mac, "You're not like other people, you do what you want to"

Live for yourself, and of course for your immediate family.  Nobody else matters, not at all.  There is freedom there.




Sapere Aude

To answer your original question, how did I know for sure I was trans, honestly, I didn't. I never like to say I'm 100% sure about anything, that's just how I am. I spent a ton of time looking online and in therapy trying to answer that question. Actually, I wanted someone to tell it to me. I didn't trust myself, didn't know myself; didn't know if I was a crossdresser, trans, or just some weirdo who liked to get their jollies off imagining things. I wanted/needed someone smarter than me and someone unbiased to tell me.

I was never feminine growing up, never mistaken for one lol. Tall, hairy, deep voice, big hands/feet. Never saw a girl in the mirror, never imagined I'd ever look like one. Yet, that's what I wanted. I knew that, just didn't trust it I guess?

I never thought I'd ever pass and if that was the case, guess I kinda felt like what was the point? I didn't wanna be seen as a guy in women's clothing. I couldn't handle that myself. I didn't wanna be insulted, laughed at, assaulted, disowned, ostracized, friendless, etc.

However, I was kinda at the point where I felt I had nothing; therefore had nothing to lose by trying, by experimenting. I never really had any close relationships; some friends sure but nobody really close, same with family. Was depressed, hated self, so ya, why not, you know?

I kinda knew what I wanted long ago so I went with it, I went after it. I officially started taking steps towards transition. I kept it private for quite awhile because a. wasn't 100% sure if I was trans or not yet, left me an out to stop if decided to stop later with no one the wiser, my secret safely kept, b. wasn't sure where I'd end up, wasn't sure even where I wanted to end up.

Sure, I thought about it. I thought about it a lot but I never had no set end goal. I never set it in stone that I would go part time, full time, that I would come out to everybody, that'd I'd have this surgery or that. Knew I wanted laser for face, knew I wanted hrt for myself, knew wanted sexy long hair, but that was all. Deal with the rest when it came up, that was the plan. May come up, may not so why worry (if only that was easy to do, lololol). My only real goal was to fix myself, improve myself, be happy with and like myself.

I'd say doing it that way worked for me; taking things slow, step by step, trial and error, experimenting and just letting whatever may come to come, you know? I mean, I worried nonstop about what friends/family/strangers would think. I worried about being alone. Losing everything. Prolly had all the same worries you did. Honestly you can't predict what will happen tho until it does.

I'm not saying jump on the transition train (choo-choo!) or anything but I do think you should do whatever you think would make you happy, cuz that's what matters. Experiment, find out what works and  what doesn't for you.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 03:49:22 AM
Thanks. That is a good way to put it and I would agree if my decisions only affected me. That is not the case. Any decision I make will affect other people too. People I love and care for. What right do I have to make that kind of choice?

No one lives on an island.  Let me put it the other way around - would these people whom you love and care for be happy to know about this quiet bit of self sacrifice that you're putting yourself under?  Especially if it got to the point of severe depression?

I'm not one to really talk as I've been on HRT for four years and not socially transitioned.  But I've done enough to keep my sanity, and it sounds like you need to stop prevaricating and dip a toe in the water so to speak.

Good luck with whatever decision you make!

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 03:49:22 AM
Thanks. That is a good way to put it and I would agree if my decisions only affected me. That is not the case. Any decision I make will affect other people too. People I love and care for. What right do I have to make that kind of choice?

Yeah but your choice is between perhaps ruining somebodies life by transition Vs maybe still doing so by not doing that, because if you were meant to transition and dont then you will be miserable and increasingly psychotic/neurotic and WILL ruin their lives by your being mentally ill anyway!

By extension if you transition and it works out for you, they may in retrospect see you become happier and they may find that this improves their lives. You simply CAN NOT TELL how things will work out!

Its just not a situation where you can duck the potential effects I fear. You can merely choose between affecting somebody one way or another, but whatever you do WILL have an effect and you cant know in advance which will be the positive and which will be the negative - so in trying to avoid harm you may actually CAUSE MORE!

What if the non-transition road is the one which causes you to breakdown have a suicide and ruin your families life because they wanted to help you but were unable to because you wouldnt be honest with them! I've just finished a five week psychiatric rotation - (yes I'm a trainee doctor) - in that rotation I GENUINELY heard a quite similar story from someone who thankfully is still alive but very nearly killed themselves in the false belief that by not being honest about their problem they would spare their family from hurt. They found out the hard way that that simply doesnt work!

So as this is impossible to predict to outcome of, it is a false move to consider the effect on others and that must be ruled irrelevant! You are who you are - and you have to play the hand that has been dealt.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 03:43:09 AM
Where do I begin!

OK, now we're getting somewhere. Let's break down your transocalypse...

• I don't know the first thing about being a woman.
  You might be surprised at how much you do know, you live with one after all and surely you've observed plenty of her life. Besides, being a woman isn't all that different from being male, we're all human after all. Most of "being a woman" is socialised and learned behaviour. Some of that is good and some of it isn't. As transwomen we're at least fortunate to have not been socialised in some of the mannerisms genetic women grow up with. I'm not quite sure what you believe constitutes "being a woman" but I'd suggest you may know already.
• I walk like a guy, talk like a guy, my mannerisms are male.
  And you believe that 90-95% of all other transwomen have never felt that pre-transition. You're under no obligation to change any of those things unless you want to. If you want to walk, talk and be mannered like a woman you can learn, it's not that hard. I walked and talked like a male prior to transition, and to a degree my mannerisms were male too - and of course they were, if I had walked, talked or acted in anyway female I would have had the crap beaten out of me at school. Trans people learn young to pretend to be their assigned gender because of ridicule or violence. It's all behavioural and can be unlearned and relearned, it's not super straight forward but it can be done with observation and intention.
• I don't know the first thing about makeup, and I would definitely need some if I was not frighten little children.
  Again, you think most trans women knew make-up before transition? Look, as "boys" we were left out of so many little things that girls got the opportunity to try and fail at for years. Transitioning as an adult means getting ahead of the learning curve, but when it comes to make-up it's nothing that several YouTube videos on different techniques won't solve. As for whether you'd frighten small children I wouldn't know, but that can be a useful thing sometimes!
  
• I have no fashion sense at all.
  See above. It is going to be hit and miss at the start. Honestly there are plenty of cis women who have zero sense of fashion. But being a woman isn't all about looking fashionable. My wardrobe is about 50/50 dressy/casual. All I can say is that if you want to look fashionable, if that is a thing you feel you need, then look at what other women are wearing, look at clothes stores and their catalogues - what do you like? What do you not like? Colours? Patterns? Styles? The trick is to figure out what will look good on you for your frame and size. It doesn't happen over night, there are plenty of items I bought which weren't really what I expected they'd be like once I got them home and the same thing happens to cis women too!!
• But all those things pale in comparison to putting my wife in a position to have to accept me as a woman. I love her more than life itself and I can't bear hurting her in any way.
  Yep, I totally get that. But are you hurting her more but being a miserable sack of potatoes? If there's one thing this site has taught me is that the majority of relationships eventually end after one partner comes out as trans. The difference is in whether it is a friendly or acrimonious process. If your wife sees herself as exclusively heterosexual it is highly likely she won't want to stay in an intimate relationship with another woman. How she might feel about you being trans, being a woman, is totally her choice. I can't colour it any other way nor will I try to give you false hope. Maybe it would work out, probably it won't. These are the risks and, unfortunately, sacrifices we face in coming out to significant others. But, better to be true to them, true to ourselves, be free - or live in miserable lies and drag them down with us in the process?
• My parents would be crushed, my brother would be hurt, my sister would probably be the most accepting besides my wife.
  See above. Family relationships are difficult, our family "roles" are very gendered... father, husband, brother, son, uncle. For some people the gender is important, for others the person is more important. Parents put a lot of stock in the "sex" of their child - how we're named, dressed, socialised, schooled, treated and the expectations that flow from being one gender or the other all boil down to our genitals rather than how we identify. So yeah, if that's how your family are treating you then it's very likely they won't be very happy, they will be confused and it may not be great at first. But if they do love you and they are good people then ultimately they will come around. It may take months or years... took my mother about a month, my father about 18 months, my sister still hasn't... and she was the one I expected would be the most supportive. Bottom line, don't presuppose how you believe anyone, even family, will take news of you being trans, unless you are actually a mind reader then the chances are you will be wrong. 
• I work in an all male engineering environment. I love my job, but the people I work with are very much 'guys' guys. They don't strike me as people that would accept a trans person as anything other than a mentally ill freak. I can't know that for certain, but I have heard comments they make when something comes on tv that is trans related, not very nice.
  Yep, some people are utter homophobic, transphobic, misogynist jerks... not much you can do about that. But are you seriously going to let that hold you back? Not that I can talk, my workplace sounds almost the opposite of yours so it was easy to come out. But the fact my colleagues respected me, I believe, made it much easier. Do your colleagues respect you? Being in Australia means you have many anti discrimination laws on your side, if you are treated badly by your employer or other employees you have recourse to those laws.
• Basically it would be the apocalypse you mentioned earlier.
  Maybe, maybe not. You won't know until you know. It sounds like you are thinking well into one particular future, one of many. I won't lie, social transition is really hard, you have to deal with a lot. But as you will have read above, some women take the hormonal transition rather than the social transition, it can ease a lot of the dysphoria if it is the right thing for you. Again, that decision is yours to make, and yours alone. Changes from HRT are not instant, they can take many, many months so it's not like your committed forever with the first pill.

I'd just like to add that not everyone comes to discovering they are trans from a very clear perspective. If you had asked me the "magic button question" a year ago I wouldn't have known the answer. I came to this forum to ask others if I was trans. Now I know how silly that was. It's annoying and a cliche but truly no one else on earth can tell you whether you're trans or not. But just keep in mind that the fact that you are here asking that likely means that you are trans.

Thank you all for really great and well thought out replies.  Whether I am trans or not, whatever it is that is going on with me is the worse thing that has ever happened to me. I can't imagine anything worse.

I don't know if I would ever be able to get to a point where trying HRT is a real option. For me that is the equivalent of climbing Mt Everest. I might be too damaged to accept that as a possibility. 8 months of therapy with 4 therapists and I don't feel like I'm making any progress. I can't help thinking that there is something majorly wrong with me.

Jayne, I can relate to much of what you've said, as I've had a long history of denial, fear and shame.

1996: I saw my first gender therapist. I begged him to tell me that I was mentally ill, and that with the appropriate therapy he could rid me of my dysphoria so that I could live a normal life as a man. Back then, I couldn't think of anything worse than being transgender. After 3 months I ceased therapy because I thought I could beat this with pure willpower.

2004: Back in therapy again with a different gender therapist, and begging her for help. My world was imploding because of the crippling dysphoria. My then wife left me because of my being trans. She described the ebbs and flows of my dysphoria as like being on an emotional rollercoaster, and after 15 years of it, she'd had enough. The thought of transition terrified me, and all I wanted was for the trans nightmare to go away. After finally accepting I was trans I started HRT, and within weeks felt some relief; I was starting to transition. However, about a year and a half later I lost my nerve and ceased HRT, vowing once again I had the willpower to live with the dysphoria.

2014: My world was imploding again because of the incessant and crippling dysphoria. I was desperate so went back into therapy again. The difference this time was I fully accepted being trans and I knew what I needed...HRT.

Like others have already said, I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy, but it's what life has dealt us.

After fighting this beast tooth-and-nail for nearly 50 years, the only things that have brought some lasting relief are: HRT; acceptance of how I was born; and giving myself permission to be me.

I still working on my fear and shame issues that are there because of the way many in society view us.

You don't have to transition socially, but at least consider a trial of low dose HRT.

I can't imagine losing my wife. That would be worse than living with the dysphoria for ever. If my wife was to leave me she would move back to Canada where her family is and I would never see her again. That thought alone makes me sick to the stomach. I fear without my wife, there is a strong chance I would take my own life. That scares the crap out if me. P

I share the viewpoint that losing my spouse to anything would be possibly life ending for me. I don't mind admitting that fact even though many see that as unhealthy.

I vote as others on this thread. A couple months of HRT at a low dose may to decide it for you. I felt so different and so much better soon after starting it. There is a not a lot of risk in doing that.

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 10:16:37 AM
I can't imagine losing my wife. That would be worse than living with the dysphoria for ever. If my wife was to leave me she would move back to Canada where her family is and I would never see her again. That thought alone makes me sick to the stomach. I fear without my wife, there is a strong chance I would take my own life. That scares the crap out if me. P

There are many on here who feel this way about our spouses. I came out to mine about a year ago.

I go through periods where I totally regret it. I feel I have burdened her too much and I should just stay hidden. However, she has noticed how much lighter, more positive and generally nicer I am to be around. She is not dancing and saying, "Yes honey, fully transition today. I would love that." However, she told me that no matter how we end up after working through all this, there is not another way we could have gone. I would have been lying to her(which she would not forgive) I would resent her if I go back and bottle up everything now.

I am on my second month of about as low a dosage of E and Spino as can be had. I am calmer. I am usually happier although at the moment, my  emotions swing pretty quickly. Not bragging about any of that. Just adding my 2 cents of recent experience. I too have been wrestling with the questions you ask. I think Dena nailed it. Most Cis people would not come to this site or question themselves. I would imagine you are trans. What remains is to figure out is where on the spectrum you are.

One last comment and I will get off my horse. Therapists are not there to tell you what you are or what to do. They might suggest things and will help but they are there to guide and assist. They help you work through thoughts, behaviors and emotions, keeping one on track and on a safe path.

Until the science catches up, there is not a doctor who can tell you you are trans(unless you are a doctor). It is frustrating. In a similar bind is the Endocrinologist. Mine asked a lot of questions, after getting a letter from my therapist. When I asked about it, she said treating someone with HRT for Gender Dysphoria is the only prescription she writes without diagnosing herself.

Don't know if any of that is helpful. I hope so but, it's not up to me...

With warmth,

Joanna

Right now I feel like nothing more than a sick twisted pervert weirdo that should never have been born. I have nothing of value to contribute to the world. I'm just a burden that consumes valuable oxygen. I have no purpose whatsoever.

That feeling is depression that is induced by the dysphoria.  I know the feeling well.  It goes away when the dysphoria is treated.


Sapere Aude

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 02:46:50 AM
I have asked myself that many times. If there is a button that can turn me into a biological woman, then there must also be a button that can make the dysphoria go away and just be a normal guy. Either button would be equally appealing to me. I have seen many people's responses to questions like that. Blue pill/red pill, blue button/red button, etc. it seems as though all trans women go for the red button without hesitation. I seem to be the only one that doesn't care which button so long as the dysphoria goes away. I just want to be a normal person. My brain obviously works in strange ways. I think the most accurate answer for me is that I am just damaged goods.

Nobody WANTS to be trans! As Denna said it is not something you'd wish on for another person unless you absolutely hated them.... maybe.

Many a time I wished I could just press the 'Guy' button to make the feelings go away. Even at my ugliest, fatest, six footest, and almost baldest points in my life. I also wished I could hit the button to turn me into a woman. Not a Super-Model but run of the mill I'd settle for. In reality, I wish there was also a button I could press to make me look like a run of the mill guy.

BTW - I think I would hate "Being a normal person" even more then being trans.

I now wish there was a third button. A button that would erase my existence so that it was like I was never born in the first place. The world would be a better place

Quote from: jayne01 on April 13, 2016, 05:58:58 PM
Right now I feel like nothing more than a sick twisted pervert weirdo that should never have been born. I have nothing of value to contribute to the world. I'm just a burden that consumes valuable oxygen. I have no purpose whatsoever.

If I thought that about you, I would spend my time helping somebody else. You are at the decision point were you have to decide if you want to get well or not. The treatment isn't going to be easy but it works. You have time to work with your wife and possibly a complete transition may not be needed. Maybe HRT will be enough. While I was sleeping, you were offered different paths. One path is known and is giving you nothing but discomfort. The other path is unknown but may offer great rewards. If you don't like it, you can back up and return to your current path. What do you have to lose by trying another solutions for a month or two. Explain it to your wife and have your wife see your therapist so she understands how much pain you are currently in. The marriage vows say for better or for worst. If she is true to her words, she will stay with you in your time of need.