Please do. I know you're hurting badly, yet you're scared as well. HRT has been clinically proven to reduce the intensity of the dysphoria in transpeople, so it's got to be worth a try if things are really that bad for you.

Remember, HRT doesn't mean you have to transition if that's not what you ultimately want. For many, it's simply used to manage the dysphoria, nothing more.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 06, 2016, 08:32:34 AM
I don't have any proof. Just because I have some weird feeling inside doesn't make me transgender. I need some solid proof.

So the fact you stay up til 2 am asking yourself what the hell you are is not proof enough? News flash, cis people do not stay awake at night wondering what their gender identity is.

Quote from: Jenelle on May 06, 2016, 10:40:55 AM
So the fact you stay up til 2 am asking yourself what the hell you are is not proof enough? News flash, cis people do not stay awake at night wondering what their gender identity is.

This ^^

At most, a cis person might briefly wonder what it's like to be the opposite sex, just as they might wonder what it would be like to be another race or nationality. I highly doubt it would make them feel distressed, or lose any sleep over it!

Quote from: Jenelle on May 06, 2016, 10:40:55 AM
So the fact you stay up til 2 am asking yourself what the hell you are is not proof enough? News flash, cis people do not stay awake at night wondering what their gender identity is.

I guess it is like Gendermutt suggested. I'm trying to find some sort of tangible evidence. Something other than my thoughts and feelings. Over the years I have grown not to trust my thoughts and feelings, so when I'm told that I am the only one to know if I am trans and that knowledge comes from my own thoughts and feelings, it all seems very foreign to me. I have no baseline reference to determine what is true and what is my imagination.

Once in a while I am right lol. Jayne, you have to stop putting so much pressure on yourself. The word or term itself is driving you bat sh-t crazy. I totally get why. But stop worrying so much about it. What if for now just go with gender variant. You are worried about diving into the deep end when you don't even know how to swim yet. I don't know where you are in terms of feminine expression. But maybe for now, just spend some time (not all) in with the CD section, the non binary stuff. A common word today that fits for me is gender fluid. In reality, I do not spend hardly any time thinking about transgender as to what it really means to me. It is a term which 3 and a half years ago was given to me by a very qualified gender therapist who described it as an umbrella term that carries the entire spectrum from occasional fun cross dressing to full transition. Transition itself has many variations too btw. I know of one person who is currently living 24/7 as a woman, yet has done zero in terms of surgery. At the most perhaps has been some laser hair removal. This person is currently not considering doing any surgery. Then there are others who are primarily living as their assigned gender, yet are on HRT simply for the dysphoria. Doses not strong enough to have major effects on their body. I swear to you, what has been of most impact for me is not what temporary feminizing I do. It is letting myself be who I am inside. Understanding that I was not a failure as a man because I am not a masculine man. I am a good person. I am simply a feminine person for whatever reason. When I do get frustrated, I sometimes will just say to myself, I am not a failure, I am just feminine.

Jayne, the intense self-doubt you feel could actually be another symptom!

I mentioned to my therapist that as a leading person in my field of work, I frequently had this odd worry that others in that field would 'discover' that I was somehow a phony, not as competent as I appeared.  This, despite a stack of patents, products used by millions of customers, industry awards, and such.  He told me that such self-doubt was common, and it was somehow linked to my male persona that I hid behind.  Fear of discovery, if that persona were breached, I think it was.

Absolute, hard proof of these subtle things that (literally) are going on in our heads is very hard to come by.  Maybe a Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) would tell the tale, if it weren't insanely expensive and incredibly hard to find facilities for.  (The volume of the BSTc is 44% larger in heterosexual men than heterosexual women.  In MtF transsexuals BSTc volume was measured at 52% of the reference males, per 'Nature', 2 Nov 1995.)

Quote from: jayne01 on May 05, 2016, 01:51:34 PM
I want to thank you all for continuing to put up with me and still trying to help me. I know that I probably seem like I don't want to take any advice and stick my head in the sand, but that is not the case. I am having quite a bit of trouble linking everything I read on this website with the real world. As I have stated earlier, the Internet is very anonymous and can seem quite disconnected from the real world. I have never met a trans person in real life. So even though this website is a community full of trans people supporting each other, I still feel isolated in a way because I can't relate anything on here to my real world life. I hope that makes sense, I don't really know how to explain what I'm trying to say.

I guess if I was able to relate some of the advice I'm getting here to the real world, then what you are all trying to tell me would make more sense to me. Where any of you able to move to acceptance and onto transition without ever meeting another trans person?

I spend a lot of my time in queer venues and have been attending pansexual sex themed parties dressing femme for 15 years or more and sure I met a fair number of trans people along the way; however all of that was after I had already determined I was trans. That happened along with the help of my therapist and support of my girlfriend.

You haven't talked -- or maybe I missed it -- about how your wife feels about the possibility of your either simply presenting as more feminine or transitioning etc. I don't know if she is upset die to the possibility or due to your being upset.

The things I changed over the last 15 years - now moving on to HRT and maybe in due time surgical transition has been enact my preference to communicate in ways more associated with women, which has also included a lot of changes in how I think.

This has had the very positive effect that now starting HRT and announcing the changes to basically everyone I know now feels like finally putting on clothing that is the right fit.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 06, 2016, 10:51:57 AM
I guess it is like Gendermutt suggested. I'm trying to find some sort of tangible evidence. Something other than my thoughts and feelings.

Yeah kind of: what's your favourite colour? Orange, I hear? I don't believe you, can you prove it? Give me a tangible evidence?

Being trans is the same.

Quote from: Michelle_P on May 06, 2016, 01:26:04 PM
Maybe a Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) would tell the tale, if it weren't insanely expensive and incredibly hard to find facilities for.

I am actually very interested in this. Do you know the ballpark of how much this would cost and go about getting this done? Have you tried?

Hi Jayne

I am a 45 year old person who is going through much of the same thing you are.  Here is my advice.

STOP SEARCHING FOR A DIAGNOSIS!!!!

The truth is, it doesn't matter if you are trans or not.  You do not get to choose what you are, but you DO get to choose how you live your life.

It took me a long time to accept my dysphoria, and come to peace with it.  I finally accepted that there is a large part of me that is, and will always be female, but I have chosen to still live outwardly as a man. 

Ask yourself this.  Is it within you ability to accept your dysphoria, but still choose to live as a man?  For some people this isn't possible and those people choose to transition.  But for people like me, this is an option.  I find ways to express my femininity, either privately, or in ways that fit well into the life I have chosen (for example, my on-line presence is almost exclusively female).

So, they question you should be asking yourself it NOT "Am I transgendered?".

I think the question you should be asking yourself, is "Can I live my life without transitioning right now?".

If the answer is "no", then this suggests a course of action (HRT, etc.).

If the answer is "yes", then I suggest living your life and finding a way to accept the feminine parts of your personality.

Best of Luck,
Janet

OP, excellent advice from gendermutt and scinerd

Rachel, fmri is principally used in research, the main medical use according to wikipedia is in preparation for some uncommon brain surgeries.

In research settings they run $500/hour, medical would probably be much higher and I doubt you could get a dic to order one.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 06, 2016, 08:32:34 AM
I don't have any proof. Just because I have some weird feeling inside doesn't make me transgender. I need some solid proof.

That feeling is tangible evidence (everything is based in the material world), is the only evidence available, and the only evidence needed to diagnose someone with gender dysphoria. It is illogical to refuse to use the only evidence available, because you want evidence that isn't available.

I like Fresas con Nata's analogy. Regardless of why you like the color orange, you like the color orange and you can't stop liking the color orange. There is no test to prove you like the color orange, but the only way to mitigate the pain of not having enough orange in your life, is to incorporate more orange. As Gendemutt wrote, you may not need a drastic infusion of orange to create better balance in your life, but you do need to accept that incorporating more orange in your life is a good thing and construct a new compromise.

The reason your therapists aren't diagnosing you with gender dysphoria is because they are treating your internalized-transphobia, by forcing you to accept yourself (I agree with them that your sub-categorization of your desires, your self-hatred and your illogical refusal to improve your life and the lives of those you care about, indicates a diagnosis of internalized-transphobia). This is a standard step to help a patient realize their most advantageous path forward and if HRT is part of it. After 3/4 of a year though, I wish they changed their approach and would just tell you that you're transgender and since you don't have the willpower to give yourself what you want, prescribe low dose HRT.

I'm sorry that your authority figures won't recommend this to you, but using that as a roadblock against doing what is logically best for you, is only harming you and those you care about.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 06, 2016, 08:39:18 AM
I'm not dodging the question. My honest answer is it doesn't matter how I wake up so long as the dysphoria is not there. If I wake up a woman with no dysphoria, that's great. If I wake up a man with no dysphoria, that is great too. Both options are equal to me. I know that is different to what many of you here feel. I'm sure most here would say they want to wake up a woman (or man for FTM) without giving it a second thought. I'm not like that. I only want the dysphoria to go away. That is part of the reason I am having doubts about being trans, I don't think like you.

If you're not factoring in your responsibilities, by so easily relinquishing who you are, you're revealing some of your internalized-transphobia. Also, the fact that you tacitly conceded that reducing your pain is a net positive for you and your loved ones, I think is further proof that you're allowing some hateful views to permeate your views. The way I can tell a transgender person has cured themselves of internalized-transphobia, is when they concede that their life would be easier without gender dyphoria, but if given the option, their self-esteem wouldn't allow them to relinquish their gender without a good reason.

Internalized-transphobia is not your only problem, and I think we can make more progress in other areas, so I won't talk about it anymore, unless you want to. Again, I think it is mostly fear that is holding you back, so like everyone else, I'm trying to find fallacies and remove them.

Quote from: SadieBlake on May 06, 2016, 03:51:06 PM

In research settings they run $500/hour, medical would probably be much higher and I doubt you could get a dic to order one.

To me, knowing is priceless and brings closure, so I would happily pay large sums of money (assuming I had it) to find the answer. If I find a good way, I will let everyone on this forum know about it for their reference

Quote from: rachel_grr on May 06, 2016, 03:37:00 PM
I am actually very interested in this. Do you know the ballpark of how much this would cost and go about getting this done? Have you tried?

Oh, dear.  I was slightly kidding about that.  fMRI machines are research tools, used in advanced studies to to neat tricks like watching activity at a very fine level in a brain.  Between fMRI examinations and autopsies, there's been a good bit of research work that shows the brain of a MtF transsexual is very similar to a female brain in some areas.  This sort of testing is a few decades away from being a diagnostic test the doctor can order up.

There's an enormous reluctance in most of us to initially accept that we are likely to be transgender folks, particularly for those of us raised in strongly transphobic societies.  A good gender therapist might be able to help us examine our lives in detail to make the decision about our true nature.  They shouldn't push us in a specific direction, so there isn't a magical moment where they tell us "Oh, you're a 98 out of 100 on the MtF Transsexual Score."  It's a hard absolute conclusion for us to reach, in the face of the social pressure and personal impact it can have.

I honestly think that just being able to ask the question in the face of social and internalized transphobia is a strong indicator of one's nature.  Sorry that I can't offer a magic solution, but there really isn't one yet.

I still don't understand. A couple of years ago I fell of my mountain bike and landed quite heavily on my shoulder. The same shoulder I had previously injured at work. It hurt like hell and thought I might have broken a collar bone or some other bone. I went to the doctor and physio and it was determined that I had not broken anything. It was just some inflamed joint tissue causing impingement on some nerves when I moved in certain ways.

If I had just gone with my own feelings of what I thought was the problem I would have been trying to fix a broken bone when the was no break to fix.

How can I so easily accept being trans when there may be other issues as the cause of my troubles? I had no idea how my shoulder was constructed to know that nerve impingement was even a possibility. It is not my area of expertise. So why is it I am suddenly a brain expert and can know if I am trans or not?

I don't think it is a phobia. I simply want to make the correct diagnosis. If I diagnose a fault with a plane based on a feeling, yes I might get it right but I might also get it wrong. The consequences of me getting it wrong are the plane crashes and people die. Making decisions based on feelings is not an option.

A lot of times when people suffer from IBS, the way to determine the cause of it is by altering the diet to see what makes you feel better and what makes you feel worse. I haven't read whether or not you are crossdressing or doing other things for feminine expression, like body shaving, or wearing jewely, underdressing etc etc. Sit and watch chick flicks with your wife. Walk into a store that is mostly feminine, like a bath and body store. A fragrance store. Do any of these things make you feel more comfortable, or less? Do you feel like you belong there? Do you find comfort in the company of only women? In mixed company, do you find yourself listening in more intently on the conversations women are having?

And as I and others keep saying. (it may one day sink in) Just take it slow. If you come to a point of your diagnosis that you are trans.... which for the rest of us means acceptance, then, where on that path do you  go. nearly unlimited options as to which path to take and how far to take it. Unfortunately though, like the IBS diagnosis and treatment, you will likely have to walk a little on some of these paths to figure out this transgender thing.

Quote from: Gendermutt on May 07, 2016, 12:05:46 AM
A lot of times when people suffer from IBS, the way to determine the cause of it is by altering the diet to see what makes you feel better and what makes you feel worse. I haven't read whether or not you are crossdressing or doing other things for feminine expression, like body shaving, or wearing jewely, underdressing etc etc. Sit and watch chick flicks with your wife. Walk into a store that is mostly feminine, like a bath and body store. A fragrance store. Do any of these things make you feel more comfortable, or less? Do you feel like you belong there? Do you find comfort in the company of only women? In mixed company, do you find yourself listening in more intently on the conversations women are having?

And as I and others keep saying. (it may one day sink in) Just take it slow. If you come to a point of your diagnosis that you are trans.... which for the rest of us means acceptance, then, where on that path do you  go. nearly unlimited options as to which path to take and how far to take it. Unfortunately though, like the IBS diagnosis and treatment, you will likely have to walk a little on some of these paths to figure out this transgender thing.

I don't know what IBS is, but I'm guessing it is just an example you are using.

I have tried cross dressing a couple of times. All I see is a pathetic guy wearing a dress. I don't see anything feminine at all. I have shaved my legs a few times (easy to hide under long pants). I always get mixed feelings when u do that. At first I think I like it then I wonder what the hell am I doing and then regret doing it because it gets itchy as hell and I get shaving rashes. I don't wear any jewellery other than my wedding ring when I'm not at work (too dangerous to wear at work). I have tried wearing women's underpants, unless I make a conscious effort to think that I am wearing them, I don't even know they are there. I watch all kinds of movies with my wife, including chick flicks. Fragrance stores make both me and my wife feel sick. The smell is too overpowering. I rarely find myself in the company of women. All my work colleagues are male and I don't have any friends outside of work. The only women I see are my wife and family and strangers out in public. I often do find myself hearing groups of women talking and think to myself that if I was a woman I would not fit into their conversation at all.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 06, 2016, 11:35:39 PM
I still don't understand. A couple of years ago I fell of my mountain bike and landed quite heavily on my shoulder. The same shoulder I had previously injured at work. It hurt like hell and thought I might have broken a collar bone or some other bone. I went to the doctor and physio and it was determined that I had not broken anything. It was just some inflamed joint tissue causing impingement on some nerves when I moved in certain ways.

If I had just gone with my own feelings of what I thought was the problem I would have been trying to fix a broken bone when the was no break to fix.

How can I so easily accept being trans when there may be other issues as the cause of my troubles? I had no idea how my shoulder was constructed to know that nerve impingement was even a possibility. It is not my area of expertise. So why is it I am suddenly a brain expert and can know if I am trans or not?

Again, you're comparing your desires to a broken inanimate object that desires nothing. Like everything, our gender has a material basis (which is unknown and unalterable), but desires that are relative to our community, also require a sense of community that bones and airplanes don't have.

Since you want to be the opposite sex (you would if it didn't require anything of you and no one was bothered), you are by definition transgender, and the only way to improve your life in this area, is to placate your desires.

Quote from: jayne01 on May 06, 2016, 11:35:39 PM
I don't think it is a phobia. I simply want to make the correct diagnosis. If I diagnose a fault with a plane based on a feeling, yes I might get it right but I might also get it wrong. The consequences of me getting it wrong are the plane crashes and people die. Making decisions based on feelings is not an option.

There is certainly a lack of self-love about something, your gender, that constitutes a large part of who you are. That along with your feeling unworthy of your wife and others for having certain feminine preferences, your refusal to improve your life and the lives of those your care about, and your diminutive labeling of your gender dysphoria, I think can only be caused by internalized-transphobia. I agree that it is your fear of making a mistake that is causing you not to take action, but if you didn't have internalized-transphobia, you wouldn't consider accepting yourself as transgender as a potential mistake.

We can disagree on this issue for now and if you would like, talk about other things that are affecting your self-esteem. 

Quote from: jayne01 on May 06, 2016, 08:45:16 AM
How can you accept to be trans and do nothing about it. Wouldn't that just make you feel even more isolated within your own body, knowing you are the opposite of what you appear to be?

Acknowledging that you desire something doesn't mean you need to take drastic action, as it may not worth doing so. Also, not doing so, doesn't cause pain. I would love to immediately transition, but I have greater priorities that when I remind myself of, make me no longer desire to immediately transition.

Don't set limitations on a desire because you think the desire is wrong, or you will suffer from self-hatred (internalized-transphobia), but set limitations on your actions when they aren't currently beneficial and work towards a state where fulfilling your desires would be beneficial (Happiness requires constant forward movement towards your ideals. Also, sadly, your ideals are currently in conflict.). Since you aren't incapable of weighing your desires though, I and almost everyone who reads your story, recommend you start by trying low-dose HRT.