My place does about 40mm square in an hour, so 16square cm. Only working on whites left from the excruciating IPL zapping. I've had four rounds of IPL in between and they're really happy with the results. If I don't shave for a couple of days (for electro) I end up with a forest of white hairs that used to be the salt in my salt and pepper. The electrolysis is   virtually painless, and she seems to tug on the hair while the needle delivers the power, so it's done when the hair slides out- very efficient. The IPL (as I understand it) bypasses the skin and focuses on the hair due to pigment. The fewer dark hairs in the area being nuked the less it hurts, as there's nothing to get hot and fry. You need to be CLEAN SHAVEN before they do it as it travels under the skin. It reallllllly travels. With eyes shut and blackout goggles on I got flashes in my eyes when she did my cheeks. Much more painful than a tattoo. It is NOT supposed to be used on exposed hair above the skin, as you can get burns and the smell is apparently awful 
Had IPL last night, and 80% of it was very easy to take. The chin area felt like it was being hit by a belt sander.

Have booked a marathon double session electrolysis on Tuesday next week and hope to clear some of my neck, which is covered in little white hairs. Never noticed them before!!

Quote from: VeronicaMJ on May 20, 2016, 04:37:51 PM
hmm interesting, after much reading and thinking.. yeah do that alot.. i fail to see how a light beam can kill the root of the hair. sorry being a little generic.. knowing how laser beams work, i just dont see it doing a permanent job, since the intensity of the beam would need to be high enough (at which point i believe skin damage would occur.) i sought of think of laser as an alternative to waxing..

Here's an interesting video on laser hair removal

Yes, scarring is a risk when an area of dense hair is treated with Flash electrolysis.  I heal exceedingly well, but still I got 'orange peel' on my chin where the hair was most dense.   Blend modality is less likely to cause dermal skin layer damage, but it is 10X slower than Flash, and thus more expensive.  Laser skin resurfacing (fractionated CO2 laser) helps reduce the orange peel, but don't expect miracles, and it's not cheap.  Over many months the irregularity of my skin has reduced, but I suspect some will always exist  .  If I was to do it again (I'm so glad I don't have to), I would demand that the chin area be done with blend.

The laser they use on me looks nothing like that it has a square flat ice cold head. The laser Vaporises the follicle and cells and is not IPL laser. This uses a different laser which is why they guarantee 95-97% permanent removal of dark or black hairs. I have an icepack that I numb my face with just prior to the zapping. They will do my entire face and neck in 10 minutes and we are just approaching the point where it is beginning to get close to not taking that long...the majority of the hair on my top lip is black but the majority on my chin is white. I am luck because it is sparse. I now shave only every second day due to the Laser treatments...the hair is finer, there are very few thick black hairs.

You have to make sure you have the right type of Laser to ensure permanent removal.

Liz K

Laser provides long lasting but not definitive hair removal. Only electrocoagulation achieves definitive hair removal.

If I do not get permanent hair removal from the Laser Treatment I am having, then I will have my money back, if however I get the minimum permanent amount of 95% I will be happy... IPL will not permanently remove black/dark hair permanently, "Light Sheer" laser will, it is not IPL it is a medical grade laser. They guarantee permanent hair removal...I keep reading statements that categorically say that Laser is not permanent hair remova...not all laser is...certain types are and these are supposed to be cutting edge(who knows for sure) and able to do it...I guess time will tell


Liz k

I'm a bit unclear about this laser not being permanent. Is it permanent for only some percentage of hairs, or does it all come back if you wait long enough? If it doesn't come back in say a year is it gone for good?

Quote from: AnonyMs on May 21, 2016, 08:02:44 AM
I'm a bit unclear about this laser not being permanent. Is it permanent for only some percentage of hairs, or does it all come back if you wait long enough? If it doesn't come back in say a year is it gone for good?

From what I know medical laser provides no hair regrowth for a few years at most. Follicles are not fully destroyed by the laser beam. With blend electrocoagulation (electrolysis+thermolysis) 90-95% of processed hair will never regrow.

Quote from: Lucie on May 21, 2016, 08:57:27 AM
From what I know medical laser provides no hair regrowth for a few years at most.

If that's correct then I think it would be a big mistake to do laser. It will drag everything out interminably.

You can find some useful info about hair removal in the "Electrolysis Guide" at TransGenderCare (http://www.transgendercare.com/electrolysis/index.htm).

Hi, AnonyMs

Hair killed with a proper wavelength laser or IPL using a sufficiently high fluence remains gone forever. The results and safety, however, depend not only on the machine and practitioner, but also on the client skin and hair color.

While a skillful electrologist can achieve a well nigh perfect kill rate for all visible hairs and a laser perhaps can't, a laser is usually most cost-efficient if the skin and hair color are suitable. The main concern is safety.

The absolutely safest permanent hair removal method is galvanic electrolysis. However, to achieve speedy results with this modality the practitioner needs a multi-needle machine (which I believe are no longer manufactured). Single-needle blend is not the fastest, but done right it is also very safe. Picoflash thermolysis can be very fast and safe provided the practitioner is skillful. Lasers can cover much area in one go, but the sessions must be spaced apart. Thus, given sufficient funds and access to a good practitioner, full clearance may be faster with electrolysis.

As for laser safety, there may be other procedures that work but here's an outline of what the clinic I was most familiar did. They used handpieces with highly chilled contact tips to keep skin temperature low. The tip was applied to the skin (with gel) using high pressure to squeeze the hair roots so they got as much side exposure as possible. The tip was moved from spot to spot at a measured, meticulous and leisurely pace in order to ensure chilling. The handpiece lens was wiped clean every few shots. The area was also chilled with ice packs post-treatment for about twenty minutes to minimize inflammation.

For male facial hair they intentionally set the fluence low for the first treatment in order to just stun the follicles enough to cause most to shed. This was to lower the density so they could safely raise the power to a much more aggressive level for the subsequent sessions without causing damage. Sessions were scheduled based on the rate at which they observed new hairs enter the growth phase.

Provided that the client was able to completely avoid getting a suntan they were not afraid to use a very short pulse width and high fluence to eliminate all pigmented hair.

Thanks, I can see there's so much so study. I'm not a big fan of pain and suffering.

Urgh - I dread to think how long I've been having electrolysis! But I'm 50 and my beard was dense - not fast growing, but tenacious.
I had six laser sessions - fine to start with then scary. My hairs all decided it was safer to be white and promptly changed colour.
I think I've been having an average of 3 hours a week for 2.5 years. I'm now on one 2 hour session a week and getting easier all the time.
It took about a year to get the face looking smooth all over.
Fortunately my beautician loves me so much she charges me about a third of what she should but the main expense is time.
For anyone looking at long-term electrolysis (electrolysis as a life-style) find an interesting beautician - you'll be spending a loooooong of time chatting!
I don't know the different types of electrolysis but I'm having the one where a single needle gets hot for a moment. I use Emla cream which helps in some areas, particularly the upper lip and either side of the throat which are particularly sensitive areas for me.

I have gone for 11 sessions of laser hair removal so far, across 14 months.

The first three or four times were done long pulsed because I have darker skin (I'm biracial, half-Black). For the fourth or fifth time I switched to IPL and that seemed to undo all of the progress of the previous 3-4 times as well as creating growth in spots where I've never had hair ever in my life (even before laser). Needless to say, we switched back to the long pulsed. However, between my seventh and eighth session, the facility I go to had upgraded all of their equipment, so for my eighth time I tried IPL again. No issues that time so we've been sticking with that since.

Anyway, I only have about 2-3 dozen hairs left. I stopped shaving for one month to get a better idea, and yes, I have few enough that I can count them. Nothing on my cheeks, barely anything on my chin, and most of what's left is immediately below my nostrils rather than my upper lip.

I will do one more session of IPL, and then I will be switching to electrolysis to take care of the stragglers.

I was assured over and over that IPL IS just as permanent as electrolysis by my technician. I told her over and over that I have concerns because I've read otherwise in countless places, but she literally guaranteed me. She even highly recommended that I go with laser OVER electrolysis, despite me saying that I wouldn't care if electrolysis was ten times more expensive and would take ten times as long if it was even just 1% more permanent than laser.

That being said, I do think she's wrong, but I don't mind going in as the hair slowly resurfaces if that does happen. At least it will only take a quick electrolysis session every few months to remove it instead of having to go in for hours every week!

Your technician is wrong and may be financially motivated to tell you this. Beware.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_hair_removal

"Hair removal lasers have been in use since 1997 and have been approved for "permanent hair reduction" in the United States by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).[5] Under the FDA's definition, "permanent" hair reduction is the long-term, stable reduction in the number of hairs regrowing after a treatment regime. Indeed, many patients experience complete regrowth of hair on their treated areas in the years following their last treatment. This means that although laser treatments with these devices will permanently reduce the total number of body hairs, they will not result in a permanent removal of all hair.[6]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intense_pulsed_light

"Contrary to what is often claimed, photoepilation is not a permanent hair removal method but a permanent hair reduction method. Although IPL treatments will permanently reduce the total number of body hairs, they will not result in a permanent removal of all hair.[6]"

J Cosmet Dermatol. 2013 Jun;12(2):153-62.

"While laser hair removal (LHR) is one of the most common cosmetic procedures practiced in the world, according to the FDA, the only current permanent form of hair removal is electrolysis."

Quote from: KayXo on May 30, 2016, 02:37:20 PM
Your technician is wrong and may be financially motivated to tell you this. Beware.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_hair_removal

"Hair removal lasers have been in use since 1997 and have been approved for "permanent hair reduction" in the United States by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).[5] Under the FDA's definition, "permanent" hair reduction is the long-term, stable reduction in the number of hairs regrowing after a treatment regime. Indeed, many patients experience complete regrowth of hair on their treated areas in the years following their last treatment. This means that although laser treatments with these devices will permanently reduce the total number of body hairs, they will not result in a permanent removal of all hair.[6]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intense_pulsed_light

"Contrary to what is often claimed, photoepilation is not a permanent hair removal method but a permanent hair reduction method. Although IPL treatments will permanently reduce the total number of body hairs, they will not result in a permanent removal of all hair.[6]"

J Cosmet Dermatol. 2013 Jun;12(2):153-62.

"While laser hair removal (LHR) is one of the most common cosmetic procedures practiced in the world, according to the FDA, the only current permanent form of hair removal is electrolysis."

IPL Laser is not going to give you permanent results you need to go to a proper Medical Grade laser to get the permanent results. Even though the above quotes may be a few years old they are right on the money when it comes to IPL. But then my understanding is the IPL is not the same as Laser. My experience with laser shows me it is quicker and far less painful than Electrolysis. while laser is effective only on the dark hair and does nothing for blonde or grey. This is when Electrolysis is required

Liz K

I tried to decide between laser and electroysis.
Had one laser session last year with massive breakout after it.
Hair simply re grown
A trans lady that was a beautician told me to do electrolysis as permanent solution.
I doing 2 hours a week in 2 sessions an hour each.
First session was consult then 30 electrolysis.
So far I done 3 and half's.  Most of face is done ( first pass ), except side burn area.
2 hours to go to finish first pass on face.
Getting slight regrowth which the lady zaps again.
Flash themorysis ( spelling ) - my electrologist is crazy fast
No pain relief .....

I'm probably repeating what's already been said, but I'll be terse:

Electrolysis is the permanent solution, yes, but laser cannot be undermined... even if it isn't life-long permanent, the quick and visible results are absolutely, positively invaluable for transitioning and making beard shadow a thing of the past which is a killer on the passing front.

Laser first (unless you're too old of course), then electrolysis for strays/grays.

So happy today, I had 90 minutes electro yesterday and she cleared my whole top and bottom lip! Yay for progress!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  well reading this thread today is discouraging, I don't have that kind of money

plus I tan quite a bit and maybe laser won't even work, I never thought I'd want to get away from the sun

I wonder about the 5 o'clock shadow... my face hair has always been fairly less hairy than other men around, still it's impossible to shave so that there is no shadow, there is not much difference before and after I shave my upper lip, what makes the shadow is actually the darkness of the not yet out hairs.

I stopped pulling them last few weeks. Since I was pulling them, the shadow was more manageable, but...

200 hours  that's what, 25,000$?