Hi Ladies:  As I have read in many discussions, as one begins to accept who they are, and that has been described as entering a second puberty, I have many questions.  So I guess I am looking to my more experienced sisters for answers.

Over the Christmas holiday I spent many hours shopping.  In the major department stores I passed throught many cosmetic counters.  They had quite a number of make-up girls giving make overs to woman interested in their cosmetic line I assume.  I further assume the expectation is that they would purchase some product if they liked the make-up.

I wanted to so badly sit in one of the chairs and request a make over.  Since I currently don't go out in my femme attire this would be dressed as a man.  One of the hardest things I am learning how to do is my "look" using make-up.  I would like to have a compete set of appropriate make-up for my skin color, age, any special needs a GG would know about, etc.

Question:  Has anyone ever had a make-over at a department store cosmetic counter either as your femme self or dressed as a male?

Question:  What is the best way to get professional make-up instruction?  I am better face to face than with a DVD.

I thouight this could be an interesting discussion for the newbies like myself.

One further note:  I love wearing make-up but I am not very good at it.

Molly

QuoteI love wearing make-up but I am not very good at it.

No one is very good at it at first Molly. Not even GG's. I learned from a video and from magazines. Pretty soon my wife was asking me for makeup tips. I'm not perfect and some of my freinds think I need to have a makeover. Personally I like my makeup. It's very subtle, understated. But hey, that doesn't mean it couldn't use improvement.

on my very first public outing my makeup was outrageous. I thought it looked pretty good, but it was way overdone. I got a lot of stares. Of course I just thought I was being read but after I adjusted the makeup people didn't seem to notice me as much so I'm pretty sure it was the makeup.

Getting a makeover at a cosmetic counter in male attire? I suppose you could. I don't know of anyone who has done that but that doesn't mean you can't. These days you have metrosexuals who are men who wear makeup but dress male. If you are in a big city people will probably think your just being trendy. If I were you I would go enfemme. Less explaining to do to the cosmetic girl.

Most cosmetic books and videos reccomend going to a department store cosmetic counter and getting the sales clerk to help you find the right colors for you. Try it. I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun and learn the right way from the beggining.

Cassie

Hello Molly.  first of all, you must understand that ideally blending makeup and colors is something that takes a lot of time, training and mistakes.  Young girls generally start experimenting before puberty and constantly train with it for years, generally they are well into high school before they develope particular personal effects.

It is a combinatoin of talent, art and objectivity.  sometimes you can come up with something you like, but it simply has no place for where you will be and who with.

You need to develop the idea of what you want to appear like and reason out how to apply it, remembering that what it really amounts to is shades of color and how those colors blend and contrast.  When unfamiliar with such things you just have to try, check the look and it's appropriateness and work on it little by little to improve the look or clean it off and try again.  You need a good mirror, good lighting and steady hands, all that along with learning to work on different sides of your face with your dominant hand if you can't sufficiently control fine steady movement with the other hand.

There is no substitute though from having someone with you who understands the art and style of makeup to help out when it is all unfamiliar to you.  Depending on your hand skills and sense of art though, you can easily learn to makeup in simple fashion.  You will need a wife, sister or girl friend along with you to shop for good makeup that doesn't easily run and that matches you skin, as in the bottles, etc. the colors will generally not look the same as your skin at all, though the proper tones will blend to your skin.  You just have to learn what works best.  Women not only spend years learning all this on themselves but often work with other women/girls who use different shades and so learn a lot about stuff they would perhaps never use on themselves so many develop a wide variety of knowledge about different stuff and how to properly use it.

Enough of all that for me though,  I probably do a complete makeup job a couple of times a year at most.  day to day I simply use an eye pencil to line my eyes and a brow pencil to darken my brows along with a good pair of precision tweezers to keep the brow area clean and in proper shape and each of my four adult daughters has had her share in helping me to keep to the clean healthy look I prefer.  I am not one to be looking for anything extravigant in that respect.  I spend more time concerned with my hair then my face and a pair of blue jeans, simple top along with leather jackets and boots will take me almost anywhere I would care to go.  If things are all that fancy I simply trade the boots for pumps or sandles depending on the atmosphere.  I have no fondness for skirts and dresses, they are to much trouble to always remain decent in around my kind of hangouts and I don't care at all for cold breezes blowing up my legs and butt.  I leave that to the real femmes who like to show it all off.

Terri

My advice would be to not go in male attire and ask for a make over.  I would suggest going to the store when its least busy, like upon opening.  The clerk will be less busy then and can devote more time to helping you. Explain to her that you are new to cosmetics, odds are she will be very happy for the chance to teach.   Start out by blending some foundations on the top of your hand to ascertain your skin tone and work from there.  Stick to conservative colors, not harsh ones like blues and reds.  They look more natural and are more forgiving when you are first learning to blend and shadow.  I have lots of guides (free) from Estee Lauder, though I prefer Clinique cosmetics.  Try to get some of those guides, they are wonderful.  I expect you will be nervous at first, but within moments will be having fun and forget all about the butterflies in your tummy    Make up is fun!
Kristi

I agree that makeup is fun and takes a lot of practice but to walk up to a makeup counter in male attire and ask for a makeover.... that's beyond my ability.

I used Cassie's method of magazines and practice. You need also to look at GG's around you and between magazines that tell you how to achieve a certain look and your observations you should be able to achieve what you want.

Shelley

Check with the local T community.  When I first transitioned my therapist gave me the contact info for someone who worked at one of the counters.  What she would do is schedule an appointment with you long before the store opened.  You met her there and she did the makeover and you bought the cosmetics.  She taught step by step.

I never did this and have never, ever had a makeover done.  I learned what I could from online tips and tricks (Google is your friend for this, LOL) and then tapped my ex-wife and other friends who were great with their makeup.  From there it was practise, practise, practise.

Another route you could try is a private session with a local esthetician.  I did it to start me off, and it helped me a great deal.  Get a list of estheticians from the phone book and give them a call.  Explain to them who you are and what you are looking for.  The worse they can do is say no.  The disadvantage with is as opposed to the cosmetics counter is that you will have to pay for the consultation.

Steph

I went to Meir and Frank, dept store, and went to the counter called Origins. It's a natural cosmetic counter. I had the lady try some make up on me. I really didn't like what she was doing. By the time she got done with me, I looked like a whore, excuse the expression. I wiped it off and walked out. I thought she used way too much make up and it was way too thick. When I went to Reno, about 5 years ago, I found a makeover salon there. So I went and they did a make over on me at that time. Again way too much make up. I didn't like what they did. So I have been experimenting, just like my wife told me to do in the first place. I find that I'm less than perfect, but I like my results a lot better. I'm way to shy, now to go up to those counters.
Sheila

I am really loving makeup at this point in my life. I am reading everything I can on it, from websites about use of color, to flaw correction techniques, to the actual using them. I talk to all the "girls" in my life about it, number one being my girlfriend. She helped me learn better more realistic techniques for lips, colors, mascara applying, and shadow. She also helped me shape my eyebrows first into the shape I have now. I have also talked to my mom about several things, and girls at work I am starting to talk about makeup like colors and eyebrows. I watched a DVD about it, but did not like the instruction in it.

I also have been watching style network for the makeover shows. Fashion magazines and sites also have great instructions and focused articles.

I have never gone to the counter for help.

I made an attempt to document what I do now you can see on my website, not sure if its good quite yet or not. I am still learning and trying new things. I plan on doing several different looks with different colors and techniques to try all of what I can. I will try to document all of them, so I can learn from it, and others can maybe too.

Hi Molly!

Wondering where to start? Lol, my first time was in male attire. My...mentor was helping me get prepared to go to a dance. So first was a wig, then next thing I know I am being given a facial. Turned out good to, once I got the wig on! ^^

Point of this story is, well you just got to get up and go for it. You are going to stand out either way, so just go with what is in your comfort zone. If you are worried about what they are going to do with you, well, worry about it if they do. If they give you any grief, don't buy from them, they give you enough, report them to their manager.

Remember, no matter what color people come in, money is always green. Most people will work with you if you can pay for the service.^^

Hi, Molly;

Pardon me while I blunder into this discussion.

'Way back in the day, I took a theatrical makeup class in college.  There, the idea is to create the impression of a 3D face that can be 'read' from the back row of the auditorium.  And as the instructor said on the first day, "We don't teach street makeup here."

But the textbook had a few things to say about female makeup.

Perfection/symmetry: A symmetrical face, and one without blemishes suggests desirable genetics to potential mates.

Youth/Health:  These are also desirable traits.  The more childlike the features, the better.  And a face suffused with color suggests health.

Arousal:  Sorry, no getting around this one.  Belladonna was taken by Italian ladies because the dilated pupils that resulted suggested interest in a potential mate.  Eye shadow and highly colored cheeks and lips also suggest/mimic changes in the face during interest/arousal.  But not to worry, most people don't know that's why women paint ther faces the way they do -- not the women who do it nor the men who look at them.  This last reason is best if left subtle and subconscious.

A bit more information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmetics#Purpose

BTW, make-ups for stage are totally different than street makeup, so I, too, am gonna' have to learn from scratch, making lotsa' mistakes as I go.  I just hope this information gives you a few more perspectives on how to approach making yourself up and deciding what you want to achieve with YOUR makeup.

Quote from: HazumuA bit more information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmetics#Purpose

Or for a lot more information you could check out Susan's Wiki here:

Appearance

Steph 

Last week I had the desire to find makeup that matched my skin tones.  It seems I always buy makeup in the grocery store, and it's really hit or miss.  My wife says I have more makeup than she does.  I really wanted to talk to someone at one of those cosmetic counters for some advice.  I went to the mall, and thought I would just walk by to see if sales girl looked friendly.  I approached the Clinique counter with my heart pounding, and saw a woman there that looked friendly.  I walked up to her and simply asked her if she could help me find a foundation that matched my skin tones.  She asked if I was an actor in a play or something.  I confidently said, no it is for dressing up, I like to dress as a woman.  She said no problem, she would be happy to help me out.  She told me to have a seat in the chair in front of the mirror.  I told her I was hoping she could just put a little dab on my wrist or something.  She smiled and said, don't worry, we get newscasters in here all the time, and the store is slow right now.  I can quickly see what will work for you.  I said, "okay" and she put a little dab on my cheek.  She said, "this one is perfect".  She helped me match it with a neutral power, and I asked her about a few other items, like lipstick and blush.  She gave me many tips on applying the makeup, and advised me several times that less is more.  She says, "the big mistake most men make is putting on too much".  I know when I first started wearing makeup I looked like a clown.  I am looking forward to showing my wife how much my skills have improved, and how I don't overdo it anymore.  I am hoping she will help me take a new more natural picture for my avatar here.  Anyway, I felt great after making the purchases, and felt that although the purchase was slightly "risky", it was well worth it.
    Things quickly deteriorated after that.  Once again, I had been deceitful to Veronica. Even though I had put this on my wish list, it had not been approved by her, and I did not tell her about it.  I thought I would surprise her, and someday put the makeup on and show her how I much better I was getting at it, and how natural it looked.
   Well, I've done it again.  As if the expensive glasses purchase did not cause enough damage.  Two days later, I came home from work, she kissed me hello and everything seemed fine.  15 minutes later she confronted me.  She said, "today was the worst day of my life".  I had agreed to let her return the glasses, which I should have done it myself, since it was my wrongdoing in the first place.  She had all kinds of problems with a giggling new sales girl who realized the glasses were not for Veronica, but her husband.  A manager had to get involved, and my wife was so embarassed by the whole thing. 
  Then came the kicker.  She asked, "did you go to a makeup counter and purchase makeup"?  I was staring at her like a "deer in the headlights".  Uhhhhhhh.    I thought, "how could this happen"?  I thought I had been so discrete.  Well apparently one of her co-workers who I met for about 1 minute two years ago saw me and recognized me.  My wife was so embarassed, and hurt by more lies and deceit from me.
What seemed fairly innocent to me at the time turned into a major fiasco.  Now this particular co-worker has told others, and my wife doesn't know how she can face them.  This is my second major strike.  I can't make any more mistakes like this.  Although my wife is upset, she has been amazingly compassionate about the whole thing.  She really is quite a woman.  Most women would have "kicked me to  the curb" a long time ago.  I am seeing a new therapist, whose major mission right now is to curb these types of overt public behaviors.  She thinks my wife, if understanding, can help me purchase anything I may need.  I am trying to write down my feelings each day in a journal, and telling Veronica every time I have an urge to make any type of purchase.  I know we will get through all of this, but I have to work harder at it than I have.  I don't want to let her down anymore.  I'll let you know how it goes.

Love,

Lisabeth

Poor Lisabeth... sometimes minefields bring out the best in people.

Quote from: Lisabeth on February 07, 2006, 06:57:46 PM...
Now this particular co-worker has told others, and my wife doesn't know how she can face them.
...

That I have advice on, probably not useful advice and perhaps not even good advice, but advice none the less.

Were I in Veronica's predicament in this I'd tell my coworkers to mind their own business.



Regardless, I admire the determination you two show and I wish you both much luck and happiness.

Quote from: Kimberly on February 07, 2006, 07:22:01 PM
Poor Lisabeth... sometimes minefields bring out the best in people.

That I have advice on, probably not useful advice and perhaps not even good advice, but advice none the less.

Were I in Veronica's predicament in this I'd tell my coworkers to mind their own business.



Regardless, I admire the determination you two show and I wish you both much luck and happiness.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd I know that hind sight is 20/20, but ...  You are in a relationship, and you have to remember that your actions will affect you both, even a simple one like GOING TO THE COSMETIC COUNTER.

The easiest way to have disarmed the predictable response from your wife before it even occurred was to have told her what you were going to do.  You simply cannot have secrets from her if you want this to work hun.

I'll step off my soapbox now

Steph

Lisabeth, I wish I could address the circumstance you find yourself in but I have no experience in that sort of thing (yet!).

In your post you said, "I thought I would surprise her .  .   ."

I can understand the feeling, I've been tempted to do things like that too but what always held me back was the realization that after the initial "surprise" of finding out how I felt about my gender, my wife has a very low tolerance for any new surprises related to the subject, directly or indirectly.  I don't think that she'll ever regain much tolerance for them either.

So, next time, surprise her with flowers or a dinner out or even breakfast with champagne & orange juice (mimosas, I think they're called?) on a Saturday morning.  (Breakfast with a buzz!  What Fun!)  Surprise her with something just for her.

As far as getting yourself stuff is concerned, I guess if I were in your situation I'd put a long moratorium on it.

hang in there,
helen

Lisabeth,
Helen is right if your wife is like my wife the best way to surprise her is with flowers and dinner.
My wife doesn't even want to see Jillieann all dress-up. I'm sure your wife prefers not to see you that way either.
I know I would love to show my wife how I look but now is not the time.
I'm still winner her back after she lost her male husband. I need to gain her trust. She feels that I have lied to her about who I am. So its baby steps for me and for you even if we want to leap forward.
My wife needs time to adjust. She is seeing a therapist too.
I believe Veronica needs time to adjust. But she also needs you to be dependable.
When you agree on something you need to stick with it.
Yes Veronica is a wonderful woman for not throwing you out on your ear. She must really love you.

Veronica hang in there.  I know it's my wife worst fear that someone we know might find out about me.
Keep you head held high no matter how anyone acts at work you have done nothing wrong.
Don't let them get to you.
Here are some hugs for you.


Jillieann

Lisabeth,

I know we all tend to push the envelope a bit, but this behavior of yours is pushing the limits. You keep making promises and you keep breaking them. You are familiar with the story of the boy who cried wolf aren't you? You are pushing your wife beyond the boundaries of tolerance. You have to get these impulses of yours under control and you have to STOP KEEPING SECRETS! You know what the results are going to be and yet here you are again. And now you say luckily she hasn't kicked you shopping addicted butt to the curb. And just how many more times do you think this is going to fly? You have got to get this under control hon and I mean now.

Veronica. Hang in there sweetie, at least it wasn't $600 worth of fashion statement this time. That's improvement at least. I know the embarrasement with your coworkers is hard to take right now but this too will pass. Look at the bright side, she could have surprised you at work.

Cassie

P.S. Lisabeth, surpising your spouse with something for yourself is male thinking. Like buying your wife sexy lingerie for Valentines. Now who is that for. You haven't done that have you?

You all make completely valid points.  I know I have been making poor decisions lately, and I am working on that with my therapist.  You're right, I can't keep saying I'm trying, and then not try.  I can't keep saying I'm sorry, and then continue to deceive my wife over and over.  This has to end, one way or another.  For now, I have to figure out what my triggers are.  I keep a daily journal of my feelings, and try to write down any urges I have.  One of the problems is it can be days, weeks, or months before an urge comes around again.  Lately there have been several in a row, but it's very possible that it won't happen again for a long time.  I just don't know when it is going to hit again, until it does.  I am hoping I can have better judgement the next time it comes around.  I guess the first step is to realize it is a problem.  Right now I feel very content, and really don't think I need anything else, but I never know what tomorrow will bring.  Thanks for all of your input.

Love

Lisabeth

QuoteFor now, I have to figure out what my triggers are.  I keep a daily journal of my feelings, and try to write down any urges I have.  One of the problems is it can be days, weeks, or months before an urge comes around again.

That's all well and good however, a personal suggestion?

If the total that your spending is over 20 dollars, wait and discuss it with your wife.  Hard, Fast, Absolutely Immobile Rule.  No Matter What, No Matter Where, No Matter When.  If the total is going to be over 20 dollars, discuss it with your wife.

That will be a lot more effective than figuring out what your shopping triggers are.

*hugs*
Jessica