Quote from: warlockmaker on March 09, 2016, 12:23:18 AM
I have has my srs, ffs and ba with Preecha on Jan 20th I can only say they were absolutely wonderful and my surgeries turned put great. They are not so persistent about payments, alot more trusting than Suporn and Chett. I fully recommend them .

It's one of the factors that made me choose them. They were super laid back: I had to ask them about a deposit and they came back with a minimal figure. They are also excellent at email response.

Quote from: Richenda on June 07, 2016, 06:48:21 PM
My understanding too. They're virtually identical now: certainly the ones in Thailand.

It's down to other factors for people to choose, not the technique.

I'd find the lack of photo's for surgeons other than Suporn and Chettawut a significant reason not to choose them. Too risky for me.

Edit: Not just the photos, the the lack of posts everywhere by people who've been to other surgeons.

Hi mona I think we're all going round and round in circles on this. You have an opinion which some of us don't share. I think they're all basically now doing the same non penile technique with very minor variations.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

X

Hi Mona...sorry to say you don't know what you are talking about. I have two friends that had Dr Chett do their srs while mine was done by PAI ...Dr Sutin. We have even examined each other critically. I have all the finances to afford the very best surgeon anywhere in the world. Look at my pic...I'm 68 years old and the ffs was done by PAI.

Maybe your Dr Chett reviews and maybe your reviews of Dr Sutin had the difference that you pointed out but it is incorrect for you to make such an all encompassing statement. In my experience it's NOT so. I had my srs at PAI and by Dr Sutin. I live in Bangkok. My gf is a Ms Tiffiny World contestant and I have met other miss world competitors. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to aesthetics. 

What little scarring I have are tucked inside my labia majora folds. This was similar to my 2 friends who had it done by Dr Chett at the same time.

Well said.

Mona, some people love Dr Chet, others (as you will know from the internet) are deeply unhappy and have huge complaints. My point isn't to say this or that place is better or worse. You run a commercial for-profit business and I'm afraid I don't trust your motives on this topic. I'm sorry. I'm just being straight.

I also live in Thailand and have heard nothing but praise for PAI. I cannot say the same for other places with which you have an arrangement.

Mine looks nothing like any penile-inversion vagina I ever saw. And I saw hundreds of post-op vaginas in the last 10-15 years. In fact, out of all penile-inversion vaginas, I have yet to see ONE example with anatomically correct labia minora. If you know for a picture that would prove me wrong, please share, I would love to see that!

Quote from: mmmmm on June 15, 2016, 11:07:11 PM
Mine looks nothing like any penile-inversion vagina I ever saw. And I saw hundreds of post-op vaginas in the last 10-15 years. In fact, out of all penile-inversion vaginas, I have yet to see ONE example with anatomically correct labia minora. If you know for a picture that would prove me wrong, please share, I would love to see that!

http://m.imgur.com/a/RD94Z

Dr. Satterwhite, so-called penile inversion with significant usage of the penile skin shaft for labia minora that wraps all the way around the entire vagina. See the dilation pic for further proof. Scrotal skin graft. I had my surgery a month ago, it looks very similar to this. My incisions are hidden in the groin creases, clitoris nicely hooded, labia minora fully around the entire vulva. Ya'll are a few years behind. The old penile inversion technique is being left in the dust. Dr. Bowers has updated her technique too. The surgeons outside Thailand are not tone deaf. They pay attention to the great work Dr. Suporn has been doing. They're catching up. I'll admit though, I don't have the same depth as a Suporn girl because he uses meshed grafts. The example above, the girl says she has 6-7 inches depth.  I had 5 inches before surgery and 5 inches depth after. 100% paid for by insurance, surgery without flying around the world.

I'd love to hear why this example isn't anatomically correct. Is it better than Suporn? Probably not, he's a perfectionist. Also, since he can use pretty much all of the penile shaft, he creates very full labia minora. But I'll be damned if my result doesn't look like a cis-vagina (And I've seen my fair share ;p). And no I will not post my result. Maybe if I hadn't used my partial real name and real photo avatar haha.

This is such a weird debate. I'm going to stay out of it from this point on  it seems that stubbornness has won out. People talking past each other

We all think our surgeons are the best. I accept that but don't like it when someone tells me that theory is better. I understand that few surgeons use a pure penile inversion technique and most surgeons in Thailand mesh the scrotal skin today.

Quote from: RubyAliza on June 16, 2016, 01:58:11 AM
http://m.imgur.com/a/RD94Z
I'd love to hear why this example isn't anatomically correct. Is it better than Suporn? Probably not, he's a perfectionist. Also, since he can use pretty much all of the penile shaft, he creates very full labia minora.

Are these photos from Dr. Satterwhite? Is there a post that goes with it? I'd quite like to read it if there is.

Personally I can't comment on the anatomical aspect from those photo's but its quite noticeable that Dr Suporn does use far finer stitches.

Suporn puts his best work for example and so does every surgeon.  I looked at your site and it difficult to tell until all the swelling is gone .

Quote from: warlockmaker on June 16, 2016, 06:01:21 AM
Suporn puts his best work for example and so does every surgeon.

The one I saw wasn't on suporns site. I don't think they are very good photos.

Quote from: AnonyMs on June 16, 2016, 05:13:41 AM
Are these photos from Dr. Satterwhite? Is there a post that goes with it? I'd quite like to read it if there is.

Personally I can't comment on the anatomical aspect from those photo's but its quite noticeable that Dr Suporn does use far finer stitches.

See my Dr. Satterwhite's post, first page. There's a link to it. I agree with you. Dr. Suporn's stitches are sublime haha I'm in awe of his work. As far as I can tell though, my sutures are looking pretty darn good and are mostly hidden anyways (I don't think I represent all patients, I had a lot of scrotal skin to work with). I'm not arguing that my surgeon is the best, he's not. My surgeon has only been doing GRS for a few years. He's still got more time to get better. It was fully paid for by my insurance and I didn't have to wait too long. If I had the money and time, I'd have gone to Suporn for sure

I'm just saying that other surgeons can do anatomically correct work. I can't force you to comment on that haha but a no comment means sonething too.  I'm sure somebody will find something horribly wrong with this example. I've come to expect it nowadays. It's only 6 days out as well so it's not fully healed. It's a recent better one too that uses an updated technique of Satterwhite's of which there aren't many examples, since he's being doing it less than a year. It doesn't matter. I didn't come to these boards to criticize other surgeons or to be snooty about my own being the best. I just want to be informative. If I must be critical, I frame in it a positive tone and don't insinuate vielded insults or put-downs 

Quote from: RubyAliza on June 16, 2016, 10:43:35 AM
I'm just saying that other surgeons can do anatomically correct work. I can't force you to comment on that haha but a no comment means sonething too.

In my case it only means that the photos are too early in recovery and showing the wrong things. I've found most photos don't really show what's important unless it's a really bad job.

Quote from: RubyAliza on June 16, 2016, 01:58:11 AM
Dr. Satterwhite, so-called penile inversion with significant usage of the penile skin shaft for labia minora that wraps all the way around the entire vagina. See the dilation pic for further proof. Scrotal skin graft. I had my surgery a month ago, it looks very similar to this. My incisions are hidden in the groin creases, clitoris nicely hooded, labia minora fully around the entire vulva. Ya'll are a few years behind. The old penile inversion technique is being left in the dust. Dr. Bowers has updated her technique too. The surgeons outside Thailand are not tone deaf. They pay attention to the great work Dr. Suporn has been doing. They're catching up. I'll admit though, I don't have the same depth as a Suporn girl because he uses meshed grafts. The example above, the girl says she has 6-7 inches depth.  I had 5 inches before surgery and 5 inches depth after. 100% paid for by insurance, surgery without flying around the world.

I'd love to hear why this example isn't anatomically correct. Is it better than Suporn? Probably not, he's a perfectionist. Also, since he can use pretty much all of the penile shaft, he creates very full labia minora. But I'll be damned if my result doesn't look like a cis-vagina (And I've seen my fair share ;p). And no I will not post my result. Maybe if I hadn't used my partial real name and real photo avatar haha.

This is such a weird debate. I'm going to stay out of it from this point on  it seems that stubbornness has won out. People talking past each other

Dont stay out of it! You actually understand anatomy, and see the basic differences. Weird debate or not, it might be helpful to some. If someone says, that there isnt any difference and that all surgeries are the same, that helps noone. Its just misinformed opinion of someone who lacks basic understanding of surgical techniques...

I remember you posted link to that persons result before. Dont get me wrong, I appreciate it. But I know enough about surgery and recovery, to not judge results in early stages. We can only fairly evaluate results when fully healed. But I can honestly say, that I think its a step in the right direction. At least dr. Bowers and dr. Satterwhite understand that there is a room for improvement, and are trying to advance technique to give patients better results. I actually hope to see final result of that patient, and many others. There are also few surgeons in Europe that started to adopt few ideas after Chonburi flap for vulva in recent years. Dr. Schaff is the most known, but there are few others. Basic idea is the same as with Bowers and Satterwhite: they need to use more penile skin on the outside, and use more graft for vaginal lining. Its logical. Its a logical step in the right way. Not every patient needs or wants a full-graft vagina, and not everybody is prepared to go through with harder recovery and dilation.
I would be happy to exchange photos (in private) next year when you are fully recovered. I very curious to see this improvements on penile-inversion.. So far I wasnt able to see any final results, not from Bowers or Satterwhite not from Schaff or any other European surgeons.

Quote from: warlockmaker on June 16, 2016, 04:42:26 AM
... most surgeons in Thailand mesh the scrotal skin today.

Thats incorrect. Only dr. Suporn uses microfenestration (mesh) in scrotal skin graft preparation. Other surgeons use normal skin grafts. This is the reason why is Dr. Suporn able to create 7-8-9 inch depth without using additional skin graft from groin or other areas, and why other surgeons who do non-penile inversion often have to use additional skin grafts. Its also a reason why scar tissue breaking dynamic dilation is required in order to maintain depth.

Quote from: AnonyMs on June 16, 2016, 11:18:25 AM
In my case it only means that the photos are too early in recovery and showing the wrong things. I've found most photos don't really show what's important unless it's a really bad job.

Could be too early. Not sure what you're looking for in terms of photos. Spread maybe? The labia minora go around the introitus. Unless 6 months down the line they magically disappear, I'm not sure there's anything particularly wrong with it. I can look down and see a more healed version of that. I know female anatomy well enough - it's anatomically correct. Lol my cisgender female partner's opinion as well. The only thing I don't have is the wishbone shaped part of the clitoris. The Chonburi organ Suporn does is actually quite a good approximation of that. However, when he does it you can see the whole wishbone shape which is, technically, not anatomically correct. If Suporn wanted to make it more realistic, he'd hide the Chonburi organ somewhere within or behind the upper labia minora. I could be wrong on all this, I haven't seen enough photos. I'm sure Suporn is still perfecting his technique. I think he's an amazing surgeon who really helped push everyone in the right direction!

Quote from: mmmmm on June 16, 2016, 11:30:11 AM
Dont stay out of it! You actually understand anatomy, and see the basic differences. Weird debate or not, it might be helpful to some. If someone says, that there isnt any difference and that all surgeries are the same, that helps noone. Its just misinformed opinion of someone who lacks basic understanding of surgical techniques...

I remember you posted link to that persons result before. Dont get me wrong, I appreciate it. But I know enough about surgery and recovery, to not judge results in early stages. We can only fairly evaluate results when fully healed. But I can honestly say, that I think its a step in the right direction. At least dr. Bowers and dr. Satterwhite understand that there is a room for improvement, and are trying to advance technique to give patients better results. I actually hope to see final result of that patient, and many others. There are also few surgeons in Europe that started to adopt few ideas after Chonburi flap for vulva in recent years. Dr. Schaff is the most known, but there are few others. Basic idea is the same as with Bowers and Satterwhite: they need to use more penile skin on the outside, and use more graft for vaginal lining. Its logical. Its a logical step in the right way. Not every patient needs or wants a full-graft vagina, and not everybody is prepared to go through with harder recovery and dilation.
I would be happy to exchange photos (in private) next year when you are fully recovered. I very curious to see this improvements on penile-inversion.. So far I wasnt able to see any final results, not from Bowers or Satterwhite not from Schaff or any other European surgeons.

Yes, I agree with you 100% on everything you said 

Quote from: RubyAliza on June 16, 2016, 11:36:05 AM
Could be too early. Not sure what you're looking for in terms of photos. Spread maybe? The labia minora go around the introitus. Unless 6 months down the line they magically disappear, I'm not sure there's anything particularly wrong with it. I can look down and see a more healed version of that. I know female anatomy well enough - it's anatomically correct. Lol my cisgender female partner's opinion as well. The only thing I don't have is the wishbone shaped part of the clitoris. The Chonburi organ Suporn does is actually quite a good approximation of that. However, when he does it you can see the whole wishbone shape which is, technically, not anatomically correct. If Suporn wanted to make it more realistic, he'd hide the Chonburi organ somewhere within or behind the upper labia minora. I could be wrong on all this, I haven't seen enough photos. I'm sure Suporn is still perfecting his technique. I think he's an amazing surgeon who really helped push everyone in the right direction!

Chonburi organ is anatomically incorrect in itself. Still, its a pretty good idea. I wondered what could be done to correct the appearance. In some patients its very obvious, as labia minora can be a bit far apart. In other patients, due to their frenulum, its practically hidden, even if labias are fully spread, and lower part closer to urethral orfice just looks like some cis-female. I believe he cant put it behind the skin, and fully hide it, because of healing process. I plan on asking him about this, if this might be possible to change with revision. I havent read about this from any other patients. I guess this isnt really a thing that would bother many of them. Its barely visable in mine, as the crease is really thin. Im just guessing here, but it most likely wouldnt be a problem to make small incision on both sides and sew it together.

Quote from: mmmmm on June 16, 2016, 12:00:30 PM
Chonburi organ is anatomically incorrect in itself. Still, its a pretty good idea. I wondered what could be done to correct the appearance. In some patients its very obvious, as labia minora can be a bit far apart. In other patients, due to their frenulum, its practically hidden, even if labias are fully spread, and lower part closer to urethral orfice just looks like some cis-female. I believe he cant put it behind the skin, and fully hide it, because of healing process. I plan on asking him about this, if this might be possible to change with revision. I havent read about this from any other patients. I guess this isnt really a thing that would bother many of them. Its barely visable in mine, as the crease is really thin. Im just guessing here, but it most likely wouldnt be a problem to make small incision on both sides and sew it together.

  Yeah, I think it's a great idea too, better than just throwing out the rest of the glans. Some surgeons say that it doesn't matter, that what matters most is the preservation of the dorsal neurovascular pedicle. However, I don't fully believe that. The corona of the glans, at least for me, was very sensitive - densely innervated. I'd rather be anatomy incorrect but use that tissue for the chonburi organ. As you mentioned, it's not visible anyways for many of his patients, and he could probably do what you mentioned as part of a revision to hide it, if a patient wanted that.

  For me, I haven't even healed enough to poke around the area haha I am nervous and excited to play with the new equipment

Quote from: RubyAliza on June 16, 2016, 11:36:05 AM
Could be too early. Not sure what you're looking for in terms of photos. Spread maybe?

I've seen a fair number of spread photo's that look very strange, and you can't see them problem otherwise. I don't know the technical terms to describe it. Its like the there's two separate parts inside instead of one, with something in between, rather than a cavity with a vagina at the bottom. Not a good description I know. If you ever see those really bad Thai results its quite clear. There's also more minor problems inside you can see, but I'd assume these could be revised.

Common Suporn revisions are posterior and anterior commissure. Related, you can see the vagina gaping open a bit, and the the pubic mound not being shape quite right (you can see how it might occur in that last POV photo looking down from). Suporn's labia are quite deep where they attach. It's quite impressive. You'd see none of these from those photo's.

For what its worth, here's some early post-op pictures from Suporn, NSFW and some surgical

<Link Removed>

One thing I noticed with Suporn results is that they tend to look quite good early. I've no idea what that means long term.

And here's some post-revision Suporn results, again NSFW

<Link Removed>

Anyway, that's what I all by not being able to tell anything from the pictures. I have no judgement about the results, apart from the stitching. The more I've learned the less useful most photo's are. If you can see something wrong with them, then its really wrong.


Mod Edit:TOS 5

Quote from: AnonyMs on June 17, 2016, 12:37:10 AM
I've seen a fair number of spread photo's that look very strange, and you can't see them problem otherwise. I don't know the technical terms to describe it. Its like the there's two separate parts inside instead of one, with something in between, rather than a cavity with a vagina at the bottom. Not a good description I know. If you ever see those really bad Thai results its quite clear. There's also more minor problems inside you can see, but I'd assume these could be revised.

Common Suporn revisions are posterior and anterior commissure. Related, you can see the vagina gaping open a bit, and the the pubic mound not being shape quite right (you can see how it might occur in that last POV photo looking down from). Suporn's labia are quite deep where they attach. It's quite impressive. You'd see none of these from those photo's.

For what its worth, here's some early post-op pictures from Suporn, NSFW and some surgical

<Link Removed>

One thing I noticed with Suporn results is that they tend to look quite good early. I've no idea what that means long term.

And here's some post-revision Suporn results, again NSFW

<Link Removed>

Anyway, that's what I all by not being able to tell anything from the pictures. I have no judgement about the results, apart from the stitching. The more I've learned the less useful most photo's are. If you can see something wrong with them, then its really wrong.

Yes, those are very good pics. I've seen the real self one, I wonder what it looked like before the revision. I think Suporn's method is very sound; It's better to leave extra tissue that can be later taken away. It's awesome that he's such a perfectionist, willing to do revisions with no issue. Not saying everyone needs a revision. Nothing but respect for him, honestly. He deserves his great reputation.

Actually, your description of deeper set vagina is very clear. I see what you mean. There's more labia minora than is visible, they go deeper like a valley before meeting the clit, urethra, and introitus. They're not flat like many other surgeons I've seen, especially those who do older penile inversion techniques. Michelle82 on the first page described kind of what this looks like. The introitus is exposed, rather than hidden inside the vulva like it should be.

Not saying that my result is common but my vagina is very deep set like you mentioned. It's not that different from Suporn's results, at least in that sense. I was very thick before surgery  lot's of tissue to do what you mentioned. In fact, I'm worried it's too deep haha I don't know how much swelling there still is. It's gone down significantly though I need to wait a while before seeing my final results. You're right, long term results can be very different. I'm not going to post much for at least 6 months about my results.

I think this thread is actually pretty informative overall, especially because of your and mmmmm's posts. It helps to have critical, fair opinions, based on objective facts and also those with a good eye for aesthetics. 

Mod Edit:TOS 5