About 99% of the time I agree with the more 'stealthy' responders in what they say. One transitions, when MTF, to being a woman. Not a trans-woman, not a TS, not a gender-queer. Otherwise, seems to me, that the entire movement is absolutely pointless.

That 1% of the time disagreement is mostly made-up of angry, in-your-face attitudes toward those who are different.

No, transitioning was not 'fun;' it was scary for awhile. A really big deal for me. Some of the after-effects were not fun either, but, except for government things, those are past. And so do not affect my daily life.

I have no wish to be 'seen as transsexual.' Is that a form of 'internalized transphobia?' Don't know, don't care. If someone is bothered by me stating that I am female, have always been and now I am 'read' as female does that affect me? Not on your life. It obviously DOES affect them and it's up to them to find what is bothering them and why. Not my problem.

But, world being what it is, neither do I feel like I have 'to call' anyone else on their fun or comfort level or on how they see themselves. The world is absolutely full of ->-bleeped-<-s, freaks, conservatives, anarchists, lovers, haters, assimilationists, exhibitionists and 'tweeners. If someone wants to transition to wearing female clothing with a full beard and in all other ways being a man, I suppose that's fine as well. Please, just don't use the bathroom I am in -- I'll call security! And, it would probably be best for them not to show up at many lesbian groups 'for women only.'

I suppose I just don't quite 'get' why someone else's comfort level becomes such a big deal. Okay, TSX wants to grow a beard while having breasts and having had FFS. I find that weird and not for me, but it also doesn't screw up my day or make me change anything about what and how I do my life. *shrug* So, except for wondering 'what the f***!' Why would I need to give TSX any of my time? Obviously she and I haven't much in common except a rather hard-to-live-with birth condition.

If TSY wants to claim she is intersexed' why don't I just let her? Does it really matter to me? And even if it did how would I know she is not or is anyhow? Do I really need to 'challenge' her? I don't.

If someone wants to find the 'rock'ing parts of being TS in their own lives, then, well enough, find 'em. Personally, I never thought about TS as a 'rocking' thing.

If someone wants to do a "what rocks about being a woman?" thread then I'll take part in that.

If someone has problems with my stating rather plainly "I'm a woman, not trans." that's their problem and one they need to work out. I'll just shrug my shoulders and move on. They have a right to their opinions. Afterall, opinions, like hairs, are individual, and universal among mammalians.

OTH, there are a lot of opinions and strategies that I can apply to myself that ARE discussed here. They DO make a difference and sometimes get lost in the welter of animosity and 'defense of my way' stuff that goes on. That adds really nothing much that I see except combativeness, bans and hard-feelings, mostly toward people we neither know and will never meet.

Look, I dunno about the rest of you but 'blood anomalies, depression and my child being seemingly unable to recall to return home with his coat, lunch-box, homework, etc from school and how I will continue to buy gas for my car on a student's budget are problems enough for any day I live in.

I just don't see what's accomplished with the in-fighting and sneers at others.

Nichole

I started to put something down, but stopped. Nichole, good post. I'm not going to say anymore.
Sheila

The idea of a forum, as the Greeks and Romans understood it, was a open exchange of ideas, and not a reaching of a consensus.  Some things you might disagree with, but its still 'good to know' stuff.

Nice post Nichole.

Exactly, tekla. Disagreement is a part of most opinions. And I tend to be rather certain that if something looks like 100% there will be someone who disagrees.

The Athenian agora and the Roman forum were places where disagreement was cherished. At least to some degree.

Disagreement is never the problem. Personal attacks on this forum are. For instance: it's completely possible and meet that I disagree with you on some or another matter. I can post that. To suggest that your mind is currently fogged by an illicit substance, or that you are some sort of lesser being, because you have your opinions is not only a problem, but also a violation of the guidelines set for this forum.

And, at some point, I have sense enough to see that you will believe what you believe anyway. I don't think we should rein-in argument. Rather, I should keep in perspective how much a threat it may be to me anyhow. 

For me to get 'upset' with you because you hold what I perceive as 'totally off-the-wall views' and that I should belabor you, personally, for days on end to that effect seems totally pointless to me. It possibly tends to further your "misguided beliefs" as well, simply for the attention it gives them and the inclination of some to 'sympathize' with wrong-headedness.
 

N~
 

Posted on: January 12, 2008, 02:03:10 PM

---

Actually, Sarah. I rather liked your original post. I thought it rather helped make my original point -- that much disagreement and animosity comes because I take BB-chat way too personally. I can take a general statement about X and make it about 'Nichole' if I am not careful.

IMO, that's where spending some time discovering what causes my reaction to something becomes valuable for me. I can figure out, sometimes, if you are 'stepping on my toes' intentionally, or just saying what you think and it has nothing more to do with me than that I disagree.

Ya see?

I think the most difficult thing I learned in the time I have been on BBs is that just because someone disagrees with me directly, or just because they are different in some other aspect of what they do and how they do it, that doesn't mean that they are directing those disagreements or differences at me, personally, and somehow trying to 'hurt' me or make naught what I think.

In fact, for them to do that would require my active assistance and complicity.

Nichole



I wish you'd left it as was.

I live in a world where fogged minds are run of the mill, and often to advantage oddly enough.  Always seemed strange to me that so many people who disagree with all of that (and the rest of it too) open their wallets to support it in such a manner.  Though even stranger is they then turn around and that use that world, the drugs, the the casual sex, the excess on all levels, the objectification of women as little more than a commodity (in both the lyrics as well as the real life) as the touchstone of cool and goodness.  So posts like 'what rocks' and 'who rocks' always seem strange to me, as I tend to see only rock bands as something that 'rocks', and even then, there is Journey.

But "you rock," "they rock" - its not real, its just a saying, right?  One used pretty routinely in the world at large without reference to its real roots.

Statements referencing mental states are also routine in the world at large.  I'm streaming our local big sports event, the Mavericks surf contest where statements like "insane" and "crazy" are being used in almost every other sentence.  I suppose that given they are surfing 30 foot waves, perhaps it is crazy.  Given the frigid water, jagged rocks, and great white sharks that are part of the environment there, maybe its more than crazy.  But I'm sure that is not what the reference is to.  Its just a saying.

Some find words like "freak," "->-bleeped-<-," "queer," and "pervert" offensive, others celebrate them.  Should those that use them in a positive manner be forced to conform for the sake of those that don't?  I would think that everyone has the right to define themselves however they want, while at the same time, I don't think anyone is under any obligation to accept that.  That's freedom, and its very messy.  As the protesters sometimes chant "this is what democracy smells like."

I hope you don't expect an argument on your last post, tekla.

I think Athens and its democracy were probably just great, well, unless you were one of the slaves, 'allied states,' or women, that it was built on. I'm sure the debates in the forum between Cicero and Cataline were also very enjoyable for any of the Equites that heard them. Again, though, I imagine that the slaves and women who didn't were busy with other things, things that prevented them from partaking in high-blown discussions.

Democracy almost always 'smells' like someone else being ground into the dust to give the democrats a podium to stand on. Churchill may have been absolutely correct in saying that it was better than whatever was in second, or whatever he said. Of course, what was his podium built on?

N~

Quotethis is what democracy smells like

Democracy never fairs well for the minority.

to Nichole:
I apprecieate that, but I think it was wrong speach anyway.

I have found that over-clarificaiton on my part seems to be an attempt to bend others understanding to my will.

An attempt to make them get it.

It doesnt work, usualy, and even when it does, it just makes me seem neurotic

Not everyone is going to understand what I mean

Like that other Thread: about half the responders got it and responded accordingly, and a few others felt defensive and hostile.

I figure that's about right.

And I really shouldn't worry about whether or not everyone understands what I said or not.

I think what I had OP'd here was a more accurate explaination of what I was trying to get accross there, but to be honest, I was tired of explaining myself.

Not worth the headache.

'precieate your carring though. ^_^
I'd put it back for you if I had a copy
Sara

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

of course he also said:

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

The reason for any of it, and all of it, is that in these conversations are people who have represented, people who will represent, and people who are representing.  And for those who intend to be of some service its critical to realize the breath and depth of the range of people they are trying to represent.  To know that you are not going to make everyone happy, so what is the path of the greatest good for the greatest number?

There is an old AA/NA saying that 'if you hang out in these rooms long enough you will hear your story."  And that's true here too.  Sooner or later, you will find someone who's life mirrors your own.  That may well be so powerful for those that have been alone in all of this, that in and of itself, its more than enough reason.

And, in its own way, many have read posts here and thought "gee, that sure ain't me babe."  That can be good too. That in fact was my particular revelation in AA/NA was that since none of these stories were mine, perhaps my problem was located elsewhere - and it turned out that it was.  I'm sure there are many who thought perhaps what they had was GID, when, upon reading a lot of this, found out that perhaps, that was not exactly it.

Hello Nichole.

Personally I feel that I've escaped from the "trans" world that governed my very existence for many years, my transition is done, the journey is over, I can live the rest of my life as it should have been right from the start.  Yes I know that's very selfish...

But realistically there will always be division as long as we each are blessed with individual thoughts and ideas.  The other reason is that our priorities change so drastically once transition is complete.  We no longer want to be seen as or identified as TS, and that's what irks so many that come after us, many don't understand the need for us to be seen only as women and nothing else, and we are often deemed elitist or some other derogatory remark.

Many forget that we suffered as they did/do, and to be honest I really don't want to stand up and fight out in the public eye.  Yes as I said very selfish, but I do other work "Behind" the scenes.

The other issue that I have is the incessant need for many mtf to redefine what a woman is, just to meet their own criteria.  Frankly a woman is a woman and always will be, to try and invent different levels of womanhood etc. just won't wash, and never will.

Steph

I agree and substitute 'what a man is' where its used, and its works the other way too.

I have no idea what either one of you are talking about, but..OK!
LOL
Sara

Greetings,

QuoteBut realistically there will always be division as long as we each are blessed with individual thoughts and ideas.  The other reason is that our priorities change so drastically once transition is complete.  We no longer want to be seen as or identified as TS, and that's what irks so many that come after us, many don't understand the need for us to be seen only as women and nothing else, and we are often deemed elitist or some other derogatory remark.

This basically sums up how I feel on this topic. Once you transition you move on, you become involved in your own life and move past transition. Transition is only a temporary stopping ground, a vital one admittedly, but still only supposed to be temporary. It's not that once people transition and start moving on don't have time to help the community...it's just that their priorities are now different. Some have waited a long time to become their true self and would like to enjoy it!

For me I am a woman, have always identified as a woman and transition is just one stop on my way to becoming the woman I was meant to be at birth.

Just my thoughts on the topic...

   
Paix et amour,
Isabelle St-Pierre

I took it as a comment on the occasional tendency by members in our community to play to the worst most demeaning stereotypes possible.  The MtF girls who think that all girls are all fru-fru damsels in distress, or FtM guys who think that men somehow judge each other by how much they can bench press and how rude they can be in everyday life.

Quote from: Isabelle St-Pierre on January 12, 2008, 07:46:14 PM
Greetings,

QuoteBut realistically there will always be division as long as we each are blessed with individual thoughts and ideas.  The other reason is that our priorities change so drastically once transition is complete.  We no longer want to be seen as or identified as TS, and that's what irks so many that come after us, many don't understand the need for us to be seen only as women and nothing else, and we are often deemed elitist or some other derogatory remark.

This basically sums up how I feel on this topic. Once you transition you move on, you become involved in your own life and move past transition. Transition is only a temporary stopping ground, a vital one admittedly, but still only supposed to be temporary. It's not that once people transition and start moving on don't have time to help the community...it's just that their priorities are now different. Some have waited a long time to become their true self and would like to enjoy it!

For me I am a woman, have always identified as a woman and transition is just one stop on my way to becoming the woman I was meant to be at birth.

Just my thoughts on the topic...

   
Paix et amour,
Isabelle St-Pierre

I feel this way too.
But a woman is also more than a body to me.

My problem with stealth: The lying.

I don't like being dishonest to my friends, co-workers, significant others, boyfriends/girlfriends, etc.

Lying about any of it. There is nothing wrong with where I came from.

I don't want to have to develop elaborate pretenses just to interact with people.

Or be afraid of what what might happen if they "find out". To avoid the truth is passive deception. So is to deliberately mislead. I'd rather have people accept me as who I am, not what they think I should be.

Stealth people go underground. They take from the community and then often abandon it like some piece of clothing discarded. Yeah. That hurts. And as an activist, I have a hard time taing the concerns of someone who doesn't support the cause seriously.
Why would I? They take, and then leave. Should I care about their concerns when working on an initiative? Someone who has transitioned, and gone stealth, and yet has a problem with me using the restroom of my gender? Like I'm really gonna take their opinion for more than just airial chatter.

Why would I? Dona Rose, Jamison Green, Other activists, People who are just 'out', People like me. Why would we give one diddly about someone who just takes our help and disapears? And then complains that we don't represent them?

Nobody represents them. They are ghosts. They don't exist. And they don't get a voice if they aren't going to at least be grateful for the work the rest of us do.
I'll stand up for my interests.

I'll use the restroom I damn well please. Why do I care about how some Ghost feels?

Stealth is one thing. Disapearing is quite another.

Quote from: Sarah on January 12, 2008, 08:05:31 PM
Stealth people go underground. They take from the community and then often abandon it like some piece of clothing discarded. Yeah. That hurts. And as an activist, I have a hard time taing the concerns of someone who doesn't support the cause seriously.
Why would I? They take, and then leave. Should I care about their concerns when working on an initiative? Someone who has transitioned, and gone stealth, and yet has a problem with me using the restroom of my gender? Like I'm really gonna take their opinion for more than just airial chatter.

You say this like all those who eventually choose stealth have never given anything back to the community.  I'm just starting and I'm giving as I can while I learn, but I can foresee a time when I might go stealth.  Will I then be less worthy because I don't continue to give and give?

Val

Quote from: Sarah on January 12, 2008, 08:05:31 PM
Why would we give one diddly about someone who just takes our help and disapears?

Because they deserve to live and enjoy the life you've helped them to realize? Because THAT might give you the greatest satisfaction of all?

~Kate~

I was just thinking about this.

You know, we're all in this together.

Someone who runs away is effecting more than just themself.

They are hurting all of us.

And when they do that, they have basically taken support from the community, and then given back hurt.

It feels like stealing. or betrayal, or somthing.

Some people say: "well, they just don't know how it feels", baloney.
I know exactly how it feels. and I know that it is seductive to go stealth, and then leave.

"I'm not trans. anymore, I'm just a woman now"

I don't know how to describe the kinda feeling I feel for this kinda delusion.

Some strange blend of  Betrayal, sorrow, anger, hate, frustration, helplessness...all rolled into one.

And their excuse is: "well I've suffered enough" !@%#$@!%!!!.

Suffering exists. it is unavoidable and intrinsic to existance.

What someone like that is doing, is offloading responsibility that they DO have onto others. It doesn't matter whether you asked for that responsibility. You got it. You were born with it. it's the way it is. and to make the rest of us have to work harder because they want to give in to fear -and that is exactly what it is: fear- they make the rest of us have to bear their burdon for them.

Empathy? they want to talk about feeling?

Where's their empathy for the next generation of kids? the ones being born right now?

The ones who's acceptance is going to depend in large part on the nomalization of all of us in society.

Are the stealth people helping those kids?
Are the ghosts?
Theyre gone. They are "just a woman" and so don't feel the need to be 'out' anymore.

Donna Rose is just a woman.

One woman who is making a huge difference.

So is everyone who is out.

Stealth people go underground. They take from the community and then often abandon it like some piece of clothing discarded. Yeah. That hurts. And as an activist, I have a hard time taing the concerns of someone who doesn't support the cause seriously.

It is a very interesting problem - often seeking (demanding) rights that once obtained, they turn around and deny to others.    I often wonder at what point people begin telling stories that start out "when I was a little girl (boy)..." expecting others to live that lie with them.  And don't others, who you want to accept you as you are, deserve the truth at some point?  And, if and when (more often than not when, records are all too easy to find in this day and age) are they right to be mad at you for not trusting them with the truth?

That, and the paranoia of a constant worry about being outed must be overwhelming.  The best thing about being out is you never have to worry about anyone finding out, they already know.

For the record, I think that Jameson Green is one of the best people I've ever met or worked with.  A true gem in a world full of costume paste reproductions.