Quote from: DeValInDisguise on January 12, 2008, 08:20:05 PM

Quote from: Sarah on January 12, 2008, 08:05:31 PM
Stealth people go underground. They take from the community and then often abandon it like some piece of clothing discarded. Yeah. That hurts. And as an activist, I have a hard time taing the concerns of someone who doesn't support the cause seriously.
Why would I? They take, and then leave. Should I care about their concerns when working on an initiative? Someone who has transitioned, and gone stealth, and yet has a problem with me using the restroom of my gender? Like I'm really gonna take their opinion for more than just airial chatter.

You say this like all those who eventually choose stealth have never given anything back to the community.  I'm just starting and I'm giving as I can while I learn, but I can foresee a time when I might go stealth.  Will I then be less worthy because I don't continue to give and give?

Val

Ask the trans. kids that.

I think that any sort of stealth is going to be more problematic in the future.  The changes in just 10 years in the amount, quality and indexing of information on the web has been mind-blowing.  Given another 10 years, I'm not sure that there is going to be much you are not going to be able to find.

People need to understand that we are all different. My views are different in that I am a woman and as far as my past goes, it's open. I will not be put back into the closet and try to hide something. There are people who have transititioned and want to live their lives as they should and not let anyone know about their past. I really can't see that happening, but it is their life and they should do what they want. I will not judge them. I don't want to be judged on how I look either. Some say you have to have this and that done so you will pass 100% of the time. I'm sure I don't as I do get looks, but I don't care, no one has said anything and what I don't hear is none of my business. I will not judge you.
As far as giving back to the community, I think we all find our way our own way. The community does not agree with it's self. I have given back more than I ever took. I only want to have is non-discrimination among people.
Sheila

Quote from: Steph on January 12, 2008, 04:55:28 PM
Personally I feel that I've escaped from the "trans" world that governed my very existence for many years, my transition is done, the journey is over, I can live the rest of my life as it should have been right from the start.  Yes I know that's very selfish...

But realistically there will always be division as long as we each are blessed with individual thoughts and ideas.  The other reason is that our priorities change so drastically once transition is complete.  We no longer want to be seen as or identified as TS, and that's what irks so many that come after us, many don't understand the need for us to be seen only as women and nothing else, and we are often deemed elitist or some other derogatory remark.

Many forget that we suffered as they did/do, and to be honest I really don't want to stand up and fight out in the public eye.  Yes as I said very selfish, but I do other work "Behind" the scenes.

The other issue that I have is the incessant need for many mtf to redefine what a woman is, just to meet their own criteria.  Frankly a woman is a woman and always will be, to try and invent different levels of womanhood etc. just won't wash, and never will.

Steph

Seconded.  If stealth becomes impossible in this country after this stupid Real ID Act passes, I can always go to the country where I was raised.  I am pretty sure I won't have to deal with this kind of invasion of privacy there...
...and this is why, saving (as much as you can) is a good thing, especially when "the most advanced nation in the world"  fails to provide its citizens with privacy...you can always escape somewhere else and live in peace without the red tape that this country is accustomed to.

tink

Quote from: Sarah on January 12, 2008, 08:29:36 PM
The ones who's acceptance is going to depend in large part on the nomalization of all of us in society.

"We" get normalized by living a normal life as normal women. Yes, intentionally hiding and lying about our past doesn't much help the ones who follow us. By I don't think flaunting our history as if we're "special" and different does either.

I don't hide or lie about my past. Countless people now know that I was born male. Not because I "educated" anyone, but just because it came up naturally... maybe they knew me from before, or watched me transition, or were told by someone else, or I had to tell them as professional contacts... whatever. But I never get into this whole "I"m a transsexual" thing, I just stick with the point... which normally is just, "I"m Kate now." And that's it.

And they tell two friends, and they tell two friends... and so on. I've heard some of the stories being told cycle back to me, and you know what I hear most often? "Bill heard I was working with a transsexual and asked me what THAT was like. And I had to laugh, and told him it's not like anything... it's just been boring. She's just Kate now. I was fearing all this weirdness about it, but she's just an ordinary woman now. There's really nothing to tell."

THAT'S how we prepare the way for those to follow us, IMHO. By example, not lecture. By living, not demanding.

~Kate~

That's being out Kate.

Quote from: Sarah on January 12, 2008, 08:29:36 PM

Someone who runs away is effecting more than just themself.

They are hurting all of us.

And when they do that, they have basically taken support from the community, and then given back hurt.

It feels like stealing. or betrayal, or somthing.

Some people say: "well, they just don't know how it feels", baloney.
I know exactly how it feels. and I know that it is seductive to go stealth, and then leave.

"I'm not trans. anymore, I'm just a woman now"

I don't know how to describe the kinda feeling I feel for this kinda delusion.

Some strange blend of  Betrayal, sorrow, anger, hate, frustration, helplessness...all rolled into one.

And their excuse is: "well I've suffered enough" !@%#$@!%!!!.

Suffering exists. it is unavoidable and intrinsic to existance.

What someone like that is doing, is offloading responsibility that they DO have onto others. It doesn't matter whether you asked for that responsibility. You got it. You were born with it. it's the way it is. and to make the rest of us have to work harder because they want to give in to fear -and that is exactly what it is: fear- they make the rest of us have to bear their burdon for them.

If this is their choice,then we should all respect that, just like it should be respected when someone whats to divulge their past. Some people do pass well enough to remain undetected in society, some people dont but what they choose to do with their lives is theirs alone to decide. This is still a society where people have the freedom to decide the directions of their lives.

Perhaps the answer is to round up all the Transsexuals in the world and make them live on an island somewhere just like they did with Lepers or tattoe everyone with a mark just like they did with Jews. Then no one could escape their past, no one could move their life forward in the direction they wanted. That way everyone would have to carry the mark of their past forever.

Perhaps I should change my hard won birth certificate and remove the word "girl" and change this to "Transsexual" and also have this printed in my passport, driving licence and other key documents.

I personally did not go through transition to be reminded constantly of my past by what society and the medical sector have labelled me. Just like I respect people choice to be "out and proud", I hope people would respect mine to live how I want to live, simply a contributing member of society and not someone who has betrayed, ghosted or been disrespectful to the trans community, but simply achieved their own aims in life.

Rebecca (The person formely known as Unhappy, Depressed, Unsucessful, Unconfident & Transsexual)

I really hope that this is not a continuation of that other thread... , so let's stay on topic please...

The title of this thread is

QuoteWhat's Accomplished?

tink

Hello Sarah,

I'm going to address your response in chucks, but before I do I would like to point out that I serve on the board of directors for a statewide LGBT organzation here in Missouri, have helped the Kansas City Anti-Violence Project's Transgender Day of Remembrance in Kansas City, produced a widely successful video for Transgender Day of Remembrance, have two books in the works, am on a project to help educate people in my state on transgender issues, working on bringing Mara in for town halls about ENDA and a number of other things to. I am as out as you can be, but still identify as female. Transition will always in my view just be a layover on my way to other things. But that is my view.

QuoteI feel this way too.
But a woman is also more than a body to me.

Very true, there is a lot more to being a woman then a body and yes, a lot of people starting transition often think that by going into the hospital for some surgery is going to make them the woman they have always wanted to be. It's only one piece of the puzzle, and most eventually learn this in time.

QuoteMy problem with stealth: The lying.

I don't like being dishonest to my friends, co-workers, significant others, boyfriends/girlfriends, etc.

Lying about any of it. There is nothing wrong with where I came from.

I don't want to have to develop elaborate pretenses just to interact with people.

While being stealth may be viewed as lying, it is really about simple survival for most people. There is still a lot of discrimination, hate crimes, violence, abuse and other negative things directed at transgender people in general; for most it's just trying to survive. In all honesty, stealth is not easy to do any more since there is so much data collected on everyone anymore, this is especially true for late transitioners than younger one's. Your previous name will be forever linked in your credit history, and other databases. So in my opinion true stealth is not really possible in this day and age.

That does not mean that every person I meet in my daily activities even needs to know about my past. There are different levels of stealth and to some degree after everyone transitions and starts to move on their is really no need for them to broadcast their past. You do not need to lie to friends, family, relations, etc. I look at as being selective in what I will tell someone. Someone I am in a serious relationship with would definitely get the whole story, you can't form a loving, long lasting relationship without telling them...again in my opinion.

QuoteOr be afraid of what what might happen if they "find out". To avoid the truth is passive deception. So is to deliberately mislead. I'd rather have people accept me as who I am, not what they think I should be.

That is fine for you, but to judge other's who may feel differently isn't right either. What is right for one person may be terribly wrong for someone else. I do not know where you are in your transition or if you've had all the bad experiences that go with telling that new friend or possible love interest about yourself only to have them abandon you. After a while you get much more selective in who you tell and how much you tell...

QuoteStealth people go underground. They take from the community and then often abandon it like some piece of clothing discarded. Yeah. That hurts. And as an activist, I have a hard time taing the concerns of someone who doesn't support the cause seriously.
Why would I? They take, and then leave. Should I care about their concerns when working on an initiative? Someone who has transitioned, and gone stealth, and yet has a problem with me using the restroom of my gender? Like I'm really gonna take their opinion for more than just airial chatter.

Yes, stealth people go underground and yes they take from the community; but people who choose to not go stealth also take from the community. To expect every single person to give something back to the community is not a very good stance, in my opinion. There will be those who stand up and help, others who take what they need and move one; but we should not judge others too harshly. Everyone is different and have different driving forces, not everyone has the character to be an activist. To get angry at them only takes away your energies that could be used more productively for other things.

Quote
Why would I? Dona Rose, Jamison Green, Other activists, People who are just 'out', People like me. Why would we give one diddly about someone who just takes our help and disapears? And then complains that we don't represent them?

Nobody represents them. They are ghosts. They don't exist. And they don't get a voice if they aren't going to at least be grateful for the work the rest of us do.

Actually there will always be people who complain, it's just human nature. It is very difficult to represent everyone within a community to start with; different segments of that very same community can and often do have very different needs. Not everyone is born a Dona Rose, Mara, or anything close; it takes a certain mix of personal characteristics and experiences that drives these people to do what they feel they must do. But when you are representing a community, you need to represent everyone within that community, even those who have tried to disappear; for that is what is truly right. To say I'm not going to help you because of this, that, and the other things is also being selfish...something to think about.

QuoteI'll stand up for my interests.

I'll use the restroom I damn well please. Why do I care about how some Ghost feels?

As you should, in my opinion at least. But at the same time if everyone did as they damn well pleased the whole concept of society would collapse and all we would have is chaos. There is nothing wrong for standing up for your interests, but at the same time you need to work within the existing framework to bring about the changes you want. There are billions of people out there and just as many opinions and views on every topic/issue. It is far harder to work within the system to bring about change and it can be a thankless task, but it can be done with hard work, perseverance and time.

QuoteStealth is one thing. Disappearing is quite another.

LOL, the very definition of stealth is to disappear, to go unnoticed. If some chooses to disappear from the community, so what? To get upset over it is a waste of time and energy...in my opinion.

There is nothing wrong with being an activist, standing up for what you see as an injustice, but to expect everyone to feel the same isn't realistic. But at the same time I can understand your frustration...

Last year I was attending a statewide equality summit here in Missouri and during the question/answer period I asked if the organization, which is a LGBT organization, had any transgender people on your board. The answer was a "No". To which I asked, then how can you claim to represent transgender people and guarantee that the trans communities views and needs are considered in the day-to-day decision making process of the organization. Basically it came down to that they have been looking for someone to serve on their board of directors, but had been unsuccessful in finding a member of the trans community to step forward to take the post. I have actually run into that with more then one non-profit.

I now hold that board position myself and I to am amazed that more trans people do not come forward to help, but at the same time I don't fault them. It takes someone a bit crazy to walk around with a constant bullseye on their back...for by representing the community you also become a focal point for possible problems. So I don't fault them...but that is just me.

Peace and love,
Isabelle St-Pierre

I love, and even more, take comfort in that take on life and that way of living Kate.

And Tink, you think it ain't gonna follow you?  Its not called the World Wide Web for nothing.  Same information I can get on my iBook here in California, I can get just about anywhere else.  Every nation - civil or uncivil - is going in this direction, and many were there long ago.

Privacy as you define it is a 19th century notion, its now the 21st century, for better or worse.

Quote from: tekla on January 12, 2008, 09:12:00 PM

And Tink, you think it ain't gonna follow you?  Its not called the World Wide Web for nothing.  Same information I can get on my iBook here in California, I can get just about anywhere else.  Every nation - civil or uncivil - is going in this direction, and many were there long ago.

Oh I don't care if they know, that's not what I am concerned about.  I just don't want them to divulge my history.  My fav quote of all times:

Quote from: DawnI am a woman with a transsexual history, not a transsexual and my history is my business alone.

So there... the fairy princess has spoken...

tink

"what is accomplished?"
Not much. But people do need to know what others limits are if they are to respect them.
Otherwise they don't know.

That's what most debates seem like to me: people drawing lines in the sand as to where or where not they are comfortable with. As though to say "I'm cool with you, but don't go there"
That seems to me what most of it is.

People get heated especially if somthing matters to them more than just a little bit.
As if to say "these other things bug me, but this one is a no fly zone. If you go there,  prepare to be shot at"

People do set limits, and I think it's important to know where they are, and where people stand. I can't not cross a line if I don't know where the line is.

In our community because we all have a very strong binding in one area, I think the tendancy is to asume we all agree as one. Well we don't. That seems clear to me.
But I do like knowing where people are and are not comfortable going so that I can respect that. and I like to hear when someone says somthing is important to them.
Their tone speaks a lot about what kind of priority it is. And I like to know that.
Personally, I don't mind my views being challenged. And well they should be. If someone can intoduce a new perspective or a way of thinking I have not considered...Good for them! There lies a true friend.

But for other people,..I don't know.
I don't speak for them.
Sara

Posted on: January 12, 2008, 08:25:02 PM

---

Quote from: Isabelle St-Pierre on January 12, 2008, 09:11:35 PM
Hello Sarah,

I'm going to address your response in chucks, but before I do I would like to point out that I serve on the board of directors for a statewide LGBT organzation here in Missouri, have helped the Kansas City Anti-Violence Project's Transgender Day of Remembrance in Kansas City, produced a widely successful video for Transgender Day of Remembrance, have two books in the works, am on a project to help educate people in my state on transgender issues, working on bringing Mara in for town halls about ENDA and a number of other things to. I am as out as you can be, but still identify as female. Transition will always in my view just be a layover on my way to other things. But that is my view.

QuoteI feel this way too.
But a woman is also more than a body to me.

Very true, there is a lot more to being a woman then a body and yes, a lot of people starting transition often think that by going into the hospital for some surgery is going to make them the woman they have always wanted to be. It's only one piece of the puzzle, and most eventually learn this in time.

QuoteMy problem with stealth: The lying.

I don't like being dishonest to my friends, co-workers, significant others, boyfriends/girlfriends, etc.

Lying about any of it. There is nothing wrong with where I came from.

I don't want to have to develop elaborate pretenses just to interact with people.

While being stealth may be viewed as lying, it is really about simple survival for most people. There is still a lot of discrimination, hate crimes, violence, abuse and other negative things directed at transgender people in general; for most it's just trying to survive. In all honesty, stealth is not easy to do any more since there is so much data collected on everyone anymore, this is especially true for late transitioners than younger one's. Your previous name will be forever linked in your credit history, and other databases. So in my opinion true stealth is not really possible in this day and age.

That does not mean that every person I meet in my daily activities every needs to even know about my past. There are different levels of stealth and to some degree after everyone transitions and starts to move on their is really no need for them to broadcast their past. You do not need to lie to friends, family, relations, etc. I look at as being selective in what I will tell someone. Someone I am in a serious relationship with would definitely get the whole story, you can't form a loving, long lasting relationship without telling them...again in my opinion.

QuoteOr be afraid of what what might happen if they "find out". To avoid the truth is passive deception. So is to deliberately mislead. I'd rather have people accept me as who I am, not what they think I should be.

That is fine for you, but to judge other's who may feel differently isn't right either. What is right for one person may be terribly wrong for someone else. I do not know where you are in your transition or if you've had all the bad experiences that go with telling that new friend or possible love interest about yourself only to have them abandon you. After a while you get much more selective in who you tell and how much you tell...

QuoteStealth people go underground. They take from the community and then often abandon it like some piece of clothing discarded. Yeah. That hurts. And as an activist, I have a hard time taing the concerns of someone who doesn't support the cause seriously.
Why would I? They take, and then leave. Should I care about their concerns when working on an initiative? Someone who has transitioned, and gone stealth, and yet has a problem with me using the restroom of my gender? Like I'm really gonna take their opinion for more than just airial chatter.

Yes, stealth people go underground and yes they take from the community; but people who choose to not go stealth also take from the community. To expect every single person to give something back to the community is not a very good stance, in my opinion. There will be those who stand up and help, others who take what they need and move one; but we should not judge others too harshly. Everyone is different and have different driving forces, not everyone has the character to be an activist. To get angry at them only takes away your energies that could be used more productively for other things.

Quote
Why would I? Dona Rose, Jamison Green, Other activists, People who are just 'out', People like me. Why would we give one diddly about someone who just takes our help and disapears? And then complains that we don't represent them?

Nobody represents them. They are ghosts. They don't exist. And they don't get a voice if they aren't going to at least be grateful for the work the rest of us do.

Actually there will always be people who complain, it's just human nature. It is very difficult to represent everyone within a community to start with; different segments of that very same community can and often do have very different needs. Not everyone is born a Dona Rose, Mara, or anything close; it takes a certain mix of personal characteristics and experiences that drives these people to do what they feel they must do. But when you are representing a community, you need to represent everyone within that community, even those who have tried to disappear; for that is what is truly right. To say I'm not going to help you because of this, that, and the other things is also being selfish...something to think about.

QuoteI'll stand up for my interests.

I'll use the restroom I damn well please. Why do I care about how some Ghost feels?

As you should, in my opinion at least. But at the same time if everyone did as they damn well pleased the whole concept of society would collapse and all we would have is chaos. There is nothing wrong for standing up for your interests, but at the same time you need to work within the existing framework to bring about the changes you want. There are billions of people out there and just as many opinions and views on every topic/issue. It is far harder to work within the system to bring about change and it can be a thankless task, but it can be done with hard work, perseverance and time.

QuoteStealth is one thing. Disappearing is quite another.

LOL, the very definition of stealth is to disappear, to go unnoticed. If some chooses to disappear from the community, so what? To get upset over it is a waste of time and energy...in my opinion.

There is nothing wrong with being an activist, standing up for what you see as an injustice, but to expect everyone to feel the same isn't realistic. But at the same time I can understand your frustration...

Last year I was attending a statewide equality summit here in Missouri and during the question/answer period I asked if the organization, which is a LGBT organization, had any transgender people on your board. The answer was a "No". To which I asked, then how can you claim to represent transgender people and guarantee that the trans communities views and needs are considered in the day-to-day decision making process of the organization. Basically it came down to that they have been looking for someone to serve on their board of directors, but had been unsuccessful in finding a member of the trans community to step forward to take the post. I have actually run into that with more then one non-profit.

I know hold that board position myself and I to am amazed that more trans people do not come forward to help, but at the same time I don't fault them. It takes someone a bit crazy to walk around with a constant bullseye on their back...for by representing the community you also become a focal point for possible problems. So I don't fault them...but that is just me.

Peace and love,
Isabelle St-Pierre

That was a very well thought out reply and I apreceate your response to that.
It gave me somthing to think about and moved me certainly.

To BCL. Same to you.
I apreceate responses that are taken seriously and take seriously the problems of others.  You are a true friend, and an honest one at that.

So are you Izzie.

Thanks.
Sara Murray

I'm not on the same journey as yourselves, but had I been on that journey then I would have got the end, proud of myself of having made the journey - coming to a place like this to carry on the (eternal) mental journey - but I would go stealth. I'd have picked fought and won my battles, I'd have been out enough whilst transitioning and looking to transition. If it were me, I'd say that the old soldier(part) has had their battles and now is time to fade away.

Quote from: Sarah on January 12, 2008, 09:52:31 PM

In our community because we all have a very strong binding in one area, I think the tendancy is to asume we all agree as one. Well we don't. That seems clear to me.
But I do like knowing where people are and are not comfortable going so that I can respect that. and I like to hear when someone says somthing is important to them.
Their tone speaks a lot about what kind of priority it is. And I like to know that.
Personally, I don't mind my views being challenged. And well they should be. If someone can introduce a new perspective or a way of thinking I have not considered...Good for them! There lies a true friend.

To be who I am is more important to me than to be who you think I should be. There's my line, Sara. You are welcome to hold that same line. Or not.

You see, my dear, my parents, teachers, family, society has held that assumption "that we all agree" as well. Hmm, as I recall they were as insistent as you have been through this thread. You may well have experienced the same. I didn't like it then; I don't like it now, assumptions like that. If you have, indeed, been under the assumption that we all agree on that, then you haven't paid attention.

I have no wish to be 'out and proud or to tell people I am TS. You see, TS=transitional to something else. As you have been told before it's like a bridge from one side to another. Or, like a pupa stage in the growth of an insect. It is not a permanent stage that I wish to walk about declaring myself to be for the rest of my life.

But, if it pleases others to do so. They have that right. If they are passionate about it, perhaps they have an obligation. I don't. I do have a membership in NOW, though.

To tell you the absolute truth, I have no dog in the fight over TG rights. Although I firmly believe all people deserve respect as human beings, that diverse expressions and ideas should not only be available but also be protected, and that the people who express and hold those ideas, customs, etc also need protections.

But do I wish to be a part of that protected class when it comes to walking daily through my life? No. But people in transition should be. I would like to think that I would be for that regardless my medical history. But please, leave me out of the (woman*) group. No asterisk is either desired or necessary.

So what we share is our common humanity. I am sure that transsexuals share GID. I am not always sure at all that all gender-diverse people share that.

My point in this thread has always been that we can talk and disagree but that it would be nice to do so recalling our common humanity -- not our common goals and ailments. Because, I am not convinced we have either of those at all. In fact, there is much to convince me that as a group we do not.

N~

I cannot imagine what else requires saying here. Thanks to all who contributed.




Posted on: January 12, 2008, 11:51:04 PM

---

Changed my mind. Be nice and you can say more. I don't think I have the last word. Well, not necessarily.

Quote from: Nichole W. on January 12, 2008, 08:03:31 AM
I just don't see what's accomplished with the in-fighting and sneers at others.

It's probably unavoidable, sadly.

Many people are deeply, DEEPLY invested in their labels as a source of identity, meaning and purpose... AND as a rationale for why they transitioned. Acknowledging the validity of competing views often threatens those fragile foundations.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on January 12, 2008, 11:33:22 PM

Quote from: Nichole W. on January 12, 2008, 08:03:31 AM
I just don't see what's accomplished with the in-fighting and sneers at others.

It's probably unavoidable, sadly.

Many people are deeply, DEEPLY invested in their labels as a source of identity, meaning and purpose... AND as a rationale for why they transitioned. Acknowledging the validity of competing views often threatens those fragile foundations.

~Kate~

I would also have to say that is most likely unavoidable. It is a part of human nature to classify and place things into categories and label them. It has in the past served as a vital tool to the very survival mankind. While we like to think we are far removed from the cave, the truth of the matter is that in the grand scheme of the universe we are still in diapers...any attempt to change peoples categories and labels often meet with resistance and fight...we are all human after all.........

Peace and love,
Isabelle St-Pierre

I was thining about what you were saying Nichole.

So for you, if I am understanding you correctly, Trans.<blank> means transition.

Somthing along the way to somthing else.

For me. and most people I know who are not Trans. (as far as I know) the word means other things.

For me personaly , it is just a label designating me or someone else as MTF or FTM in some gender varriant sense. That would apply then even after a surgery was completed.
AS One would always be MTF or FTM as one cannot change where one came from.
For me it's also more than that. It is a very poor label for somthing else: a third position.
You see for some, trans. may be just a road on the way to a destination; a transition.
For others like me, the road is the point. it is the destination. or at least a third position. Some place more like a corner on an equalateral triangle than a deviding line between two halfs. There are no halfs as far as I see it (note, I said 'I'). there are thirds.

So it's a different perspective. I am female, but also more than that. I don't reject my other aspects of my personality. Even if being female is what is dominant. I have always felt more comfortable in female clothes, restrooms, behavioral habits, tendancies etc.
I even always used to carry my backpack as though it was a purse( I didn't realize this until I started coming out). So for me, I can not say "transitioning" is an accurate term.
I am not transiting anywhere. I am just "changing". I have always been this way, and now I am honest about it rather than hiding it. Boobs and other changes are a natural part of this for me. But I would not say that I am not gender varriant, as I am and so seems just about everyone on this forum.

We use Trans* as a matter of convenience, as an easy way to identify ourselves to one another and our communities. More importantly They use trans* as a means of identifying us. I don't argue with them, and rather than educate every person I come in contact with about the subtle differences, I just go with it.
Thats my choice I suppose. But it has become somting of a common definition. and I would immagine that most people would view a MTF or FTM as a "Transexual" regardless of whether one has surgery or not, or completed srs or not. That is how they view us.
I can tell them I am Woman untill I am blue in the face, some people are always going to view me as "trans" regardless of surgery. The very fact that I might have surgery is what confirms the label for them. To many people a "trans" person is someone who has had or wants to have SRS. So when I use that label, I use it in the common sense, because that is what everyone else (outside of the 't' community) does.
Now, within the community is a different matter, but, quite frankly I think we are outvoted.

I once heard a Woman refer to herself as a "ex-paleotransexual woman".
I am not kidding. What does that mean? To her it meant peleotransexual as meaning that she was an "old-school" transexual that came out before the 90's. paleo meaning "old-school" "ex" meaning that she no longer was a "paleo-transexual" as she had completed her SRS and was now just a woman. So, "ex-paleo-transexual woman" was her title to her.

Now I'm sure she put a lot of thought into this, and it seems quite well thought out and it undoubtedly is an accurate description of her.
But here's the thing: No one else is going to call her this or use this. The rest of the world is going to call her a "transexual". They just are.(for one thing, it's ten sylables long!) So what does that mean? There are common use definitions of words. If we insist on using our own personal definition of a word and don't use the common definition of the word, we will find ourselves being misunderstood, confused and otherwise looked strangely at like why we just don't speak enlglish and stop calling a "->-bleeped-<-" a pack of cigarettes (lol sorry, that was a cheap shot at British people) But you get my meaning.

So I don't really know where I am going with this, but I think that example illustraes my point better than I can say.

Sara

what should be accomplished is a "mental" transition.  once people transition mentally, they will be able to understand why the term "trans" is offensive/inappropriate to others.

Quote from: Natasha on January 13, 2008, 12:08:40 AM
what should be accomplished is a "mental" transition.  once people transition mentally, they will be able to understand why the term "trans" is offensive/inappropriate to others.

Transition is about getting over *ourselves*, IMHO. And to some degree, that means getting over "being a transsexual." Whenever I see all the attempts at public education that transsexuals just Ordinary People, I often wonder who they're REALLY trying to convince: The public? Or themselves?

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on January 13, 2008, 12:30:51 AM

Quote from: Natasha on January 13, 2008, 12:08:40 AM
what should be accomplished is a "mental" transition.  once people transition mentally, they will be able to understand why the term "trans" is offensive/inappropriate to others.

Transition is about getting over *ourselves*, IMHO. And to some degree, that means getting over "being a transsexual." Whenever I see all the attempts at public education that transsexuals just Ordinary People, I often wonder who they're REALLY trying to convince: The public? Or themselves?

~Kate~

it's usually the public as they can never understand that we are "normal" women or men that were born with a birth defect.  you don't see this kind of chaos with someone that was born with down syndrome or a cleft palate, do you?  the public (transsexual and cisgender) need to understand that we are no different from someone who they consider "normal".  the moment this is accomplished is what i usually call "mental transition".  we are not different, we are not freaks.  this needs to be understood and until that that happens, people will not understand one another.