Gender roles, oh so glorious gender roles.

By force I mean: being denied a toy with the reason of "it's for boys/girls", having to wear gendered clothing even if you didn't want to (ex: an AFAB forced to wear a dress), expected and forced to behave a certain way due to your gender (ex: an AMAB being told to 'man up' and 'stop crying'). And these events were reoccurring.

My parents enrolled me at a catholic school, where I was forced to wear a dress every day. I only went there for a few years but it was horrible. In grade six they had us make pro-life posters with "pictures of cute little babies" without explaining what it was really about.

I also dealt with the shaming from my mother when I started wearing more masculine clothing and refusing to wear makeup. In grade nine when she was buying me clothes from the boys' section, the cashier gave us a snobby, disgusted look and my mom laughed it off and said, "She should've been a boy". The funny thing about that statement is now that she knows I'm a trans guy, she still misgenders me and buys me stereotypically feminine stuff. I don't say anything about the gifts cause I don't wanna sound rude or ungrateful, but the misgendering that still goes on gets frustrating.

I was born in the 80's, 5 years before the Soviets left our country. My parents weren't the issue, they let me play with anything as long as I behaved and tidied up afterwards. The problems were caused by other children. I had to learn all the 'rules' the hard way as kids can be quite cruel when somebody doesn't fit in and I did not fit in completely, ever. I learned gender roles early and I knew that my desires are not 'normal' and was so ashamed that I never asked my parents for girly things. I tried my best to behave as expected from a boy so from 5th grade onwards nobody saw me cry and I hid my emotions as much as I could but as it turned out I was only fooling myself, everybody else still saw that something is not right.

Ah, Catholic schools.

I had a problem with gross motor skills growing up (I'm a "DES son", and that's a common problem), so was lousy at baseball and basketball, the designated playground activities for boys.  I'd hang out with others who weren't playing, talking, playing hopscotch (badly) and whatnot.  That is, with the girls.

The nuns saw this as a problem to be fixed.   I was grounded at recess for a week, forced to sit on a designated punishment bench while the other kids played.  To make sure I knew why I was being treated this way, I had to wear a uniform skirt during recess issued by the principal.  Naturally this resulted in much laughter at my expense, and there was an uptick in beatings from the school bullies.

I don't think it worked.

Athletics were actually my sanctuary early in life. They were sort of a neutral ground where i did not really have to live up to anyone's ideal and just compete.

I distinctly remember putting a bully that called me "sissy" etc on his rear end very hard in football practice. He later threatened me because i made him look bad in front of the coaches, to which i replied something like... "I'm sure there is room for you on the x-country team ". That infuriated him more, but it has a good ending, he and i became friends.

One of my coaches one time called me a "very interesting paradox". I'm sure to him i was. Outside of athletics, i took a fair amount of slurs, cruel humor, etc about my femininity, sometimes i was perceived as an "easy target" for bullies that were not yet sure of their place in the pecking order of bullies, and it never really turned out good for any of them.

Some family called me "too sensitive", "not normal", "dramatic", my sexual preference was often assumed. When my wife and i started dating, ex-boyfriends of hers and other guys tried to tell her she would not be happy with an effeminate guy, etc.

The list is a lot longer than that but all and all, its not a list of complaints, simply part of my human experience.

I'm really sorry to read what you've all been through. I find this topic very interesting so I'm afraid I'm going to ramble, possibly endlessly.

Quote from: Lynne on June 22, 2016, 03:02:48 PM
The problems were caused by other children.

I found the same thing, at least in earlier childhood. I didn't have much awareness of gender until age five or six, and then there was this shift at my school. Girls did not talk to boys, girls did not make friends with boys, the boys got to frolic outdoors at playtime and the girls had to stay inside chatting and drawing. Fortunately I managed to make a group of friends that didn't care if we were teased. If we wanted to frolic, we would frolic. Nobody could stop us. And then they all moved away and I was alone, rocking back and forth in the corner of the classroom while the girls talked about the makeup they'd one day be able to wear, the boys they'd one day be able to kiss - all that clichéd goodness. And the boys frolicked outside and bullied each other for being too "girly" or "gay." Ah, childhood.

My issue wasn't that I wanted to be one of the boys. I just wanted to be a person, free from arbitrary expectations. Free to frolic ;-; not much has changed.

At home, my dad read me stories about knights and dragons. He raised me as his child, not his daughter, which is probably part of why I have such fond memories of him. He never tried to make me into anything, he just let me be myself. I could relax around him.

My mum was less accommodating. We didn't have much of a problem when I was really young - I used to love wearing dresses, as long as they were sparkly - but the older I got, the more anxious I felt in stereotypically female dress. I suppose because it stopped being sparkly. She'd shout me into skirts and dresses if we had formal events to attend. It wasn't really that bad until I moved to senior school (age 11+ ish)- when I was supposed to be growing into a young woman.

I'd get teased all day in school for being...well, I was incredibly awkward socially because everything felt so wrong (thank you repressed gender issues :p) and I didn't have any interest in anything stereotypically female, which made me a weirdo and a target. Didn't have any friends for most of it. I'd come home, cry for hours and my mum would just say "you do understand why they're saying that, don't you?"

It got better when I moved to an all-girls school - everyone there was queer, it seemed. Only a few of the students cared what you did with your gender, and because they were the minority, it was just funny. There were a few out trans kids at that school actually, living in peace and harmony with the rest of the students. More fond memories :3

My mum continued to say and do some hurtful things but now she's supporting my transition - this has actually brought us closer together, so I'm trying not to be bitter about the past.

I'm not sure which option I should click on. Gender roles were not obviously forced onto me like other trans people have posted eg. saying you have to wear a dress or you can't do that because it's boys only. But my dad (my main parent as my mum died when I was 7) used to make fun of me for wearing boys clothes and always acted uncomfortable when I did so; although I can't remember exactly what he said. I had no concept of clothes being for boys only or girls only and I used to wear my brother's old clothes. I remember one time when I was around 10 of choosing a pair of boys pajamas; they were blue (my favourite colour) and had Prince Caspian from the 2nd Narnia book on them (I loved reading those books and the film was out at the time). My dad made some 'jokey' remarks about them being only for boys so was too embarrassed to ever wear them . I also remember I used to love wearing this nightie when I was little that had cats on it .

So yeah; my dad took the passive aggressive approach.

I was born in '91, and gender roles weren't overtly forced on me, but they were about - i was exposed to the 'boys don't cry' attitudes, and the idea that barbies were for girls, every gift i was given was wrapped in pink etc etc. But i wasn't denied access to things considered masculine - they just weren't offered first, i would have to ask for or seek out things as people didn't expect me to want them. The same went for my younger brother, who ended up playing with my barbies (and owned his own) and had the same sparkly pink shoes as me. (afaik he's cis tho so go figure)

I used to avoid the 'tomboy' label though, because i noticed that masculine women don't have an easy time, people used to make a big deal out of 'boyish' girls and i didn't like it so i used to aim for neutral

Girl toys and girl clothes and playing with girls was not an option, as my only sister is 9 years younger and I had no friends (of either sex.)

Besides, this was the '50's in the South  (more like the 1850's), and boys and girls simply did not associate with one another.  This was also the days that at adult parties, the men would congregate in one room and the women in another.  Boys were not supposed to see girls as human and vice versa.  (Same for adults.)

The main gender role I found forced upon me was that boys were expected to be tough.  That included fighting back if  you were in a fistfight, putting up with all manner of hazing, being "bad" in certain ways, not complaining when you were bullied (whether by kids or adults) or when the other kids ganged up on you ("don't be a tattle-tale"), and of course, never, ever crying ("don't be a crybaby.")  I don't remember much about my behavior, but I do remember being routinely called "queer" and "crybaby."

Being "tough" was completely impossible for me, which I think is why I never really internalized any of the male socialization.  I learned to be afraid of being caught being insufficiently masculine, but not to think less of myself for it, other than hating myself for not being able to protect myself from the relentless putdowns and invalidation.

Reading about everyone's experiences is fascinating and sad.  The most interesting thing, to me, is to find how many different variations on the themes  of shaming, ostacization, and pain there are from both authority figures and peers.

The backdrop of my tale is the 1980's.  I have 2 older sisters.  I only exist because my father HAD to have a boy.  I liked a lot of typically masculine things, but also was okay with what would be considered girly things too.

I had a pink blanket that I adored as a young child.  I used to wear it as a cape and run around as a superhero.  This lead to a lot of ridicule and bullying from the neighborhood kids.  I loved He-Man and by extension She-Ra.  When I my parents took me to get a lunchbox to start kindergarten I saw a She-Ra one and wanted it.  The had to explain to me that that is a "girl thing" and forced me to buy a different one.

Having almost no friends to play with at home I was forced to play with my sisters.  In order for them to play with my toys, i had to play with them with their toys first.  It became a ritual of forcing me to play with Barbie's and my little ponies.  Then I would be shamed about playing with girlie toys.

I was horribly unathletic.  The other kids would beat me up and call me a list and other insults.  My tomboy sister would constantly come to my rescue and beat up the bullies, but that just led to more insults and fights because a girl had to protect me.  My father responded to my lack of athletic talent by forcing me to play every sport under the sun.  I was terrible and hated them, but every year I was signed up for them all.  I learned to hate my flabby body and constantly felt that I should have been a girl, because then I wouldn't be forced into the world of sports and alpha male aggressiveness.  I was an emotional wreck because I was being forced into a life that I was bad at and ridiculed for.  Any of the fluid or non binary traits I had were repressed and I became a bitter, depressed, angry man.  Boys don't cry I was told.  I learned not to eventually.  Instead anger and rage was learned.

Growing up in the 50s and 60s, gender roles were so entrenched that almost no enforcement was necessary.  I am sure that I was told a time or two that "boys don't do that", but I very quickly learned self-censorship.  That's what hurts the most about looking back at my life: not only was I a prisoner of my gender role, but I was my own jailer.

Quote from: KathyLauren on June 23, 2016, 10:11:41 AM
Growing up in the 50s and 60s, gender roles were so entrenched that almost no enforcement was necessary.  I am sure that I was told a time or two that "boys don't do that", but I very quickly learned self-censorship.  That's what hurts the most about looking back at my life: not only was I a prisoner of my gender role, but I was my own jailer.

That was exactly my experience too.  It was something in the air that we breathed and which permeated everything.  Stepping outside the box in the 60's and early 70's in the south was an invitation to misery. 


Sapere Aude

Quote from: KathyLauren on June 23, 2016, 10:11:41 AM
Growing up in the 50s and 60s, gender roles were so entrenched that almost no enforcement was necessary.  I am sure that I was told a time or two that "boys don't do that", but I very quickly learned self-censorship.  That's what hurts the most about looking back at my life: not only was I a prisoner of my gender role, but I was my own jailer.

Like too many others here I was complicit in my own traumas.  Catholic grade school was compounded by my high school being all male military.  We learned the playground rules, we learned how to just survive.  I had enough bullying, self loathing and shame to last a lifetime and left home and the state by age 16. 

Gender roles after transition are equally obvious as mansplaining, condescension and discrimination seem the lot of too many women.  Yes, now that the right hormones course thru my being driving, math and problem solving are so way beyond me.  Just sarcasm ok

Gender roles are also a trap for some of us non binary folks and i still wonder why some are so eager to jump from one straight jacket to another.  To each their own, of course.

I was so focused on creating this poll that I forgot to even add my own response!

I'm AFAB and would fit in the 90's/00's category. Gender roles were not forced upon me, however, I was frowned upon for not acting 'like a lady'. For example, when I was in pre-k/Kindergarten, I loved Pokemon. My female friends would tease me for watching a 'boys' show'. They'd like to play with makeup and baby dolls and would frown at me for not wanting to do that.

Of course, I liked some stereotypical feminine things as well, like Barbies, Littlest Pet Shop, etc. Even though I wasn't that effeminate, I really liked my female childhood. I have fond memories of being a small child, which not everybody is lucky to have, and I am grateful for. It wasn't until puberty, when the physical changes started happening, did I suddenly feel messed up.

Most of the time, my parents didn't force gender roles on me. I played with my brothers' old toys, wore some of their old shirts, etc. As long as I was happy, they were happy. When I wanted to get something sometimes they would ask "Are you sure? It's for boys." but would almost never straight up say no because I was a girl and said item was for boys.

When I turned 13, my mom really began to really frown at me for not growing out of my tomboy phase. She tried to get me into makeup and shaving, but I said no. She knows I'm trans, but I don't even know how she's dealing with that now.

TL;DR I'm frowned upon for not 'acting like a girl', but was never forced to 'act like a girl'.

I always found it odd when I hear people's stories where parents harass their child by not conforming to gender rolls, like the ones in this thread. The only people who ever tried to do that at all were my older siblings and only a couple of them. And since they were siblings I didn't listen to them.

I guess it's just that I was raised by someone who never conformed to gender rolls herself that I was never expected to do the same. And one thing I'm very grateful for. As others have said I felt it was much more pushed in social settings with children, they separate and blame each other for having "cooties" yet if they tried they could've gotten along fine. Funnily I guess avoided a lot of that pressure by not having very many friends, not that is a good thing.

Quote from: DarkWolf_7 on June 24, 2016, 11:22:19 AM
I always found it odd when I hear people's stories where parents harass their child by not conforming to gender rolls, like the ones in this thread.

I have a theory that people who are AMAB are more likely to be forced to conform to gender roles rather than people who are AFAB. I tend to notice masculine females are not given nearly as much crap as feminine males. Masculinity is often associated with strength and pride, and femininity is often associated with delicacy and weakness. So basically the attitude is, "It's okay to be a strong woman, but it's not okay to be a weak man."

And when you born/when you grew up also has a play in it. Gender roles were much stricter back then. Hence, why I made this a poll, asking people when they were born and what gender they were assigned at birth. And most of the results have been from trans women who were born in the 50's/60's, forced to conform to gender roles. This wasn't surprising, due to the expectations placed upon how men/women should behave back then.

I was born in late 70s so I consider myself an 80s kid as the 70s were all but done with then.

I have no recollection of any gender roles being forced on me, besides the school uniform. And one day I decided to break the uniform rule, and received no punishment or even any notice at all.

I should note my parents deliberately set out not to force me into a role because they told me so at a young age. I could play with whatever types of toys or video games. I could dress how I chose. My sister turned out to be a very feminine female even with my influence (mine being quite dismissive toward "girly things") on her. Proving to me that gender is very much innate, not taught to someone.

I remember playing with all kinds of toys, but preferring legos, mechano, robots and videogames infinitely more than dolls. I actually preferred writing and drawing to all of those, too. I remember having both boy best friends and girl best friends through school. I never once entertained the thought of being somebody's girlfriend during adolescence, however. This was unthinkable at that time.

I've never been forced or coerced into acting feminine by anybody. But it has to be said I'm not a very pressurable person. I never felt "peer pressure" to the degree many others do. I simply accepted from a very young age that I was different and no amount of pretending or hiding was going to help it. To illustrate the sort of child I was, I would have debates with my very Catholic grandmother about god at the age of nine or ten, about my skepticism of god's existence, which I'm sure she was thrilled about. I told an entire class in junior school that I shouldn't have to be singing hymns, at the same age. I probably would have said the same about gender roles, had the people around me tried to impress those on me with the same enthusiasm as they tried to impress the idea of god.

I did of course encounter people later in life who expected me to react as a female, people who tried to take advantage of me as a female (I'm happy to say they got a nasty shock) and people who think I'm not right for a particular job because I don't look male. But on the whole I am pretty insulated from it by a fairly tolerant culture and my own indifference to what people think. 

I had a similar experience to those who were growing up in the early 60's and 70's. Gender roles were rigidly enforced, on every level. If you do not behave a certain way it was considered that something was wrong with you and you were an outcast. I also was the first born son with three older sisters. Talk about added pressure to be all male! I didn't disappoint, even though I didn't really feel masculine. In high school I played football! (My father had been a high school football star - more pressure to conform) I was not real good at it but on a state championship team. I became popular, varsity club, president of Natl. Honor Society, cute girlfriend, sports car, 3 proms. I got real good at playing the charade. I even convinced myself! Privately there were serious holes in the façade. Problems being "man enough" with my girlfriend. Dressing in women's clothes, not knowing why I needed to, preferring females as close friends. Camelot ended when I went away to college at a prestigious school. (First in the family to attend college - more pressure) Started "binging and "purging" on dressing up and became not very interested in girls. Yes, I spent a lot of emotional capitol conforming to gender roles. Our age group was the last of the old guard. We grew up in the Mayberry of the early 60's, before it unraveled in the late 60's when girls first started burning their bras. We've come a long way baby!

I know we all have feels about gender roles as gender variant people, but topics like this reenforce very bad and wrong notions that transition is driven by discontent with gender roles, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Nobody stopped me from doing anything I wanted to do ... except for Boy Scouts and Little League. Irony, girl scouts is a better organization and there was less toxic parent drama in softball, so in a way you could say I made out better. Plus girls' soccer was way better than boys' and that was my favorite sport. I'm not transitioning at age 36 because mommy wouldn't sign me up for Little League, okay? I'm transitioning because I'm literally sick all the time running on Estrogen. Because my dysphoria about my breasts wouldn't go away and was ruining my life. Because getting called ma'am on the reg was killing my self esteem. Wake up and smell the gender dysphoria. That's why we're trans. Not because we violated some others' expectations in childhood. Also, let's check ourselves here--not all of us were gender variant children. Topics like this also perpetuate the "not trans enough" myth for those who are trans as adults but showed no sign as children. It perpetuates a hierarchy between "primary" and "secondary" transsexuals (news flash: the cure is 100% the same for "primary" and "secondary" cases) and prolongs the suffering of those who experience a late onset.

Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on July 19, 2016, 05:26:24 AM
I know we all have feels about gender roles as gender variant people, but topics like this reenforce very bad and wrong notions that transition is driven by discontent with gender roles, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Nobody stopped me from doing anything I wanted to do ... except for Boy Scouts and Little League. Irony, girl scouts is a better organization and there was less toxic parent drama in softball, so in a way you could say I made out better. Plus girls' soccer was way better than boys' and that was my favorite sport. I'm not transitioning at age 36 because mommy wouldn't sign me up for Little League, okay? I'm transitioning because I'm literally sick all the time running on Estrogen. Because my dysphoria about my breasts wouldn't go away and was ruining my life. Because getting called ma'am on the reg was killing my self esteem. Wake up and smell the gender dysphoria. That's why we're trans. Not because we violated some others' expectations in childhood. Also, let's check ourselves here--not all of us were gender variant children. Topics like this also perpetuate the "not trans enough" myth for those who are trans as adults but showed no sign as children. It perpetuates a hierarchy between "primary" and "secondary" transsexuals (news flash: the cure is 100% the same for "primary" and "secondary" cases) and prolongs the suffering of those who experience a late onset.

I stated that I made the thread because of my theory that AMAB people get harsher roles enforced upon them. It doesn't necessarily have to do with the "amount of transness", or whatever. Back in May, I put the words "It bugs me, because I could care less about gender roles, I just wish I was born in a male body." in my "I don't agree with 'gender is a social construct'" thread. On May 15th, I wrote down a rant on the notes in my phone. Here's a part of it:

"Okay, I'm sick of so many cis people acting like trans people are trans because they didn't fit the 'boy stereotype' or 'girl stereotype' when they were kids, and accusing us of reinforcing gender stereotypes. No. Just stop. I'm not trans because I didn't fit the 'girl stereotype', I'm trans because I feel like I should have a male body. That has nothing to do with how I acted as a child. I would be much more comfortable with my life if I had a biologically male body." 

Like I said before, the reason I made this thread was because of my theory of AMAB people getting gender roles forced upon them, how masculinity is/has been seen as culturally superior to femininity, etc. I will admit the mistake on my end- I probably should've worded it better. But in all reality, pushing the idea that we're trans because we don't like gender roles is the last thing I'm trying to do.