I've been severely depressed since I was a kid. At one point in my teens my Dad attempted to drug me with antidepressants in an attempt to do something. I was opposed to the idea so naturally I refused and spit up anything that was given to me. He lost interest in a couple of weeks and that was that.

It is now as it was then. Were anyone to recommend drugs to me I would reject them outright. I want to be naturally happy. I don't want to be drugged up happy. That isn't real happiness. That isn't me being satisfied with life. That is fake and only given by the grace of foreign chemicals. If my brain is not capable of becoming happy on its own accord, then I simply won't be happy. And as such, I have never been happy and probably never will be.

Given that standpoint, I am faced with another dilemma. How is my stance against antidepressants any different than the problem I face with my gender? I want to be female. It is impossible to become what I want to be without a ridiculous amount of added chemicals and reconstruction. Obviously my body is not capable of going about this on its own. But then how is doing any of that any less fake than having myself popping a bunch of pills to be happy?

I don't see antidepressants as fake happiness; simply something to give you extra help to improve your mental state and increase the serotonin in your brain. You already have some serotonin but you need medical help to increase the hormone to a more 'normal' level. Simiarly with hormones. Yes it's synthetic but it's something to give your body a helping hand because it's lacking what it needs. Sometimes the body needs help and only drugs (maybe therapy) can help.

Quote from: Elis on July 07, 2016, 02:29:50 PM
I don't see antidepressants as fake happiness; simply something to give you extra help to improve your mental state and increase the serotonin in your brain. You already have some serotonin but you need medical help to increase the hormone to a more 'normal' level. Simiarly with hormones. Yes it's synthetic but it's something to give your body a helping hand because it's lacking what it needs. Sometimes the body needs help and only drugs (maybe therapy) can help.

I kinda agree with you, Elis. But I don't think that drugs are the only medicines/treatments for improving one's mental state. Nutrition plays a huge role in the wellness of our minds. There are natural medicines, like herbs (St. John's Wart) that can help manage depression. Now, as far as hormones go, I think hormones and surgery are the only ways to really achieve drastic physical (and mental) improvement for us. Anti-depressants can help but so can other methods. I also take anti-depressants. Western medicine does not eradicate the depression but at least it does alleviate symptoms.

Quote from: Tristyn on July 07, 2016, 03:00:12 PM
I kinda agree with you, Elis. But I don't think that drugs are the only medicines/treatments for improving one's mental state. Nutrition plays a huge role in the wellness of our minds. There are natural medicines, like herbs (St. John's Wart) that can help manage depression. Now, as far as hormones go, I think hormones and surgery are the only ways to really achieve drastic physical (and mental) improvement for us. Anti-depressants can help but so can other methods. I also take anti-depressants. Western medicine does not eradicate the depression but at least it does alleviate symptoms.

Of course it's not the only solution; that's why I mentioned therapy. If you've tried all else then medication is the only answer.

I've struggled with this question myself. I have rejected pharmaceuticals over the years because I don't like the idea of being dependent on artificial chemicals in order to make myself feel "happy." I did ok with that, until I found out I was trans and the dysphoria pushed me to want to transition. The way I try to look at it is that pharmaceutical estradiol is "chemically identical" to natural estradiol that non-trans women get in abundance. Unfortunately, my body is short in that department. I'm not totally sold yet on it being identical (similar to how ascorbic acid is not truly identical to the Vitamin C complex), but when the dysphoria hits me hard and I go into deep depression for weeks, I've learned that I need to be more flexible.

So, I guess I cannot explain why I see artificial estradiol as ok, but not anti-depressants and most other pharmaceuticals, especially for a lifetime dependency, but I've just had to accept that I need it if I want to live and be able to support my family.

Quote from: Semira on July 07, 2016, 02:10:06 PM
I've been severely depressed since I was a kid. At one point in my teens my Dad attempted to drug me with antidepressants in an attempt to do something. I was opposed to the idea so naturally I refused and spit up anything that was given to me. He lost interest in a couple of weeks and that was that.

It is now as it was then. Were anyone to recommend drugs to me I would reject them outright. I want to be naturally happy. I don't want to be drugged up happy. That isn't real happiness. That isn't me being satisfied with life. That is fake and only given by the grace of foreign chemicals. If my brain is not capable of becoming happy on its own accord, then I simply won't be happy. And as such, I have never been happy and probably never will be.

Eat right, exercise and socialize. They will make you better resistant to depression.

Quote from: Elis on July 07, 2016, 03:39:17 PM
If you've tried all else then medication is the only answer.

I have to agree with that. I would rather do that than to accept depression as my absolute fate. Now I see what you mean.

Quote from: Elis on July 07, 2016, 03:39:17 PM
Of course it's not the only solution; that's why I mentioned therapy. If you've tried all else then medication is the only answer.

I don't like the idea of "I tried" all else. I say never stop trying.

Take meds if one must, but keep working to fix the underlying causes.

And hopefully someday come off the drugs.

I think some of you are looking it all this with a certain bias and incorrect assumptions. Clinical depression is essentially a chemical imbalance in your brain. Anti-depressants are supposed to treat that imbalance, because nothing else will. Similarly, being transgender is essentially a birth defect. Brain is structured one way counter to the hormones that the body produces. That plus the socialization that comes with that, means you experience gender dysphoria. Hormones help to treat that conflict in the brain. The bodily changes are merely to help with the socialization part, but really it's getting your brain the right hormonal balance that helps the most. Treating it like it's tricking you into happiness is the incorrect assumption. It makes real changes that treat a condition. That said, there are always other related issues in both gender dysphoria and depression that can be worked on without chemicals/drugs/hormones. Like if depression is caused by other external factors, then those factors should be dealt with. If your gender dysphoria is exacerbated by social pressures or other mental and emotional factors that contribute to it, then those must also be dealt with, because pills alone aren't going to fix everything.

Other people may have had different experiences, but my experience with anti-depressants is that they don't make me any happier.  They just kind of anaesthetize my emotions.  I still feel them, but I don't care about them as much, so I can function better as in: go out and do what needs to be done.  The times in my life when I've taken them have been when, for instance, just the idea of getting  up and making breakfast was stirring up so much drama in my head that it took forever to get out of bed.

They didn't address the underlying issues, which I'm still trying to figure out.  Transition and/or HRT seem to be bringing them up with greater clarity than before so I have my hopes.  It would really be nice to get to the point where I actually and honestly feel good about myself.

My current therapist has training in treating trauma, which is what I'm finally starting to have the nerve to call what made me the way I am.  I very recently realized that she's been reluctant to dig very deep because I've reacted so strongly to the few times she's worked on the trauma, so I told her to do "whatever it takes" and not worry if I scream and cry.  (Actually, I wish I could scream and cry -- feeling like a walking zombie all the time is pretty depressing all by itself.)  I don't think any treatment she could use would be half as bad as what I've survived already.  I'll see what happens in my next few sessions.

Quote from: Ashey on July 07, 2016, 05:29:03 PM
Similarly, being transgender is essentially a birth defect.

Is that a fact or a speculation? Transgender people have been known to exist throughout history. Being trans is no different from being cis. Gender is a spectrum just like seuality. How is being born transgender a "birth defect?" Society is the one with the defect, not us. They make ->-bleeped-<- appear as if it is abnormal and it is just upsetting to me that some of us, including myself, see it as something that should not occur in nature as if we are unnatural. I don't like that but I sound hypocritical because I get in my moods where I want to be cisgender for the sake of normalcy which I hope would lead to happiness.

Quote from: Tristyn on July 08, 2016, 04:58:27 AM
Is that a fact or a speculation? Transgender people have been known to exist throughout history. Being trans is no different from being cis. Gender is a spectrum just like seuality. How is being born transgender a "birth defect?" Society is the one with the defect, not us. They make ->-bleeped-<- appear as if it is abnormal and it is just upsetting to me that some of us, including myself, see it as something that should not occur in nature as if we are unnatural. I don't like that but I sound hypocritical because I get in my moods where I want to be cisgender for the sake of normalcy which I hope would lead to happiness.

It's an educated guess and my opinion, so speculation. There are all sorts of different opinions around here because research is sparse. But the way I see it, if the theory (or fact?) that we all start off female as the default is true, then there is a lot of room for error (or defects in development). Seems reasonable that the introduction of the Y chromosome would bring changes in both the brain and the body. However, if the body develops as male while the brain doesn't, there is a mismatch in the alignment of the physical sex and the mental gender. You would then have a male who is female-brained, but socialized as male and who would be running on male hormones; a transgender female. Similarly, if the brain was the only thing to masculinize during development, you would have a transgender male. Because we base our sense of what our sex should be on our sense of gender (the mental component) rather than what is physically there, we transition, if we're so inclined. This would be why many people feel they were born into the wrong body. In cis-folk, both the mind and body develop together in the same direction and so they can't sense the distinction between gender and sex. This is just my opinion though. It makes sense to me, and is pieced together from various things I've read, and my own logic. I suppose if it is true, it could be considered a form of intersex condition.

I get what you're saying though. Cis-folk should be more understanding, but when they don't even see the distinction between gender and sex, then they can't accept that there can be a disparity there. And if the above theory is true, then it is abnormal. Abnormal, but natural. And nobody actually wants gender dysphoria. But just because it's abnormal, doesn't mean people should treat us poorly because of it. I will say, a lot of the discomfort that accompanies gender dysphoria is most likely attributed to the gender roles that are forced upon us by society. ESPECIALLY when one deviates from what's considered 'normal'. But I think that the mental and physical misalignment is certainly a major factor as well, even when gender roles aren't considered. That's why I think even just taking hormones can help alleviate a lot of the stress caused by the dysphoria. As far as the gender spectrum goes though, that's a bit complicated. I think since there are so many factors involved, it likely can't be determined by any one thing. Someone could consider themselves gender queer simply because they aren't happy with the gender roles placed upon them. Another might be gender queer because they're intersex and don't want to define themselves by either gender. Someone could maybe feel androgynous because that sense of gender never mentally developed. I think a lot more research should be done on these topics, but sadly it's cis-folk that fund the majority of the research, and if they don't feel it's a big deal then it simply doesn't get funded. :/

Quote from: Asche on July 07, 2016, 07:57:13 PM
Other people may have had different experiences, but my experience with anti-depressants is that they don't make me any happier.  They just kind of anaesthetize my emotions.  I still feel them, but I don't care about them as much, so I can function better as in: go out and do what needs to be done.  The times in my life when I've taken them have been when, for instance, just the idea of getting  up and making breakfast was stirring up so much drama in my head that it took forever to get out of bed.

All classes of anti-depressants are different, although SSRIs are infamous for doing what you say.  It's no wonder some people commit suicide on them because while you can function after a fashion it's a miserable way to live. I can't take SSRIs so I've gotten to try different drugs that don't mess with your emotions in such an obvious way. The one I'm on now seems to keep the worst depression at bay while being pretty unobtrusive.

We call depression a chemical imbalance but I don't think scientists still understand exactly what is going on with your brain hormones to make you depressed. The drugs are just some stuff they picked up in the video game and are throwing at your brain during the boss fight hoping that something works. It's all very guess worky so I can understand someone being adverse to using them. When I finally went on the drugs, though, I really needed them.

Quote from: Ashey on July 08, 2016, 05:59:23 AM
I get what you're saying though. Cis-folk should be more understanding, but when they don't even see the distinction between gender and sex, then they can't accept that there can be a disparity there. And if the above theory is true, then it is abnormal. Abnormal, but natural. And nobody actually wants gender dysphoria. But just because it's abnormal, doesn't mean people should treat us poorly because of it. I will say, a lot of the discomfort that accompanies gender dysphoria is most likely attributed to the gender roles that are forced upon us by society. ESPECIALLY when one deviates from what's considered 'normal'. But I think that the mental and physical misalignment is certainly a major factor as well, even when gender roles aren't considered. That's why I think even just taking hormones can help alleviate a lot of the stress caused by the dysphoria. As far as the gender spectrum goes though, that's a bit complicated. I think since there are so many factors involved, it likely can't be determined by any one thing. Someone could consider themselves gender queer simply because they aren't happy with the gender roles placed upon them. Another might be gender queer because they're intersex and don't want to define themselves by either gender. Someone could maybe feel androgynous because that sense of gender never mentally developed. I think a lot more research should be done on these topics, but sadly it's cis-folk that fund the majority of the research, and if they don't feel it's a big deal then it simply doesn't get funded. :/

I have to dispute this; certainly if you are a feminine woman stuck in a male role you will face a lot of social problems because femininity is devalued in our society, but I don't think it's fair to generalize that our discordant brains and bodies mostly cause us pain because of gender roles. Because I never had any significant gender role issues at all. Once I got to grips with being homosexual it was pretty plain sailing. Women in our society are given room to be very masculine (even more so than I was, honestly). Nobody ever stopped me from doing anything I wanted to do (although sometimes I stopped myself due to messages received in childhood, some of that around going to college instead of pursuing a blue collar career at first, which maybe had less to do with gender anyway). I could dress as I pleased, behave as I pleased, etc. I wasn't punished either, I was offered promotions at work, women liked me, things were going good.

I couldn't cope because of the dysphoria, simple as that. I could not make the masculine woman thing work because of the woman part. I was suffering around the clock from having breasts, and going slowly mad from all the estrogen poisoning my brain. Every time I got called "ma'am" I slipped ever deeper into a funk.

I also think you are conflating gender roles with gender expression. Genderqueer people call themselves that because of their gender expression, which is their manners and mode of dress, voice, walk, etc. Gender roles are stuff like, does dad stay home after the baby is born and take FMLA? Something a lot of cis straight dudes are doing these days. There's very little "role" that can't be shared and, to be fair, a GQ friend of mine got really upset because they couldn't nurse their babies. That was a role only their wife could fill (I mean, I guess she could have tried pumping but she didn't.) GQ people are often out there redefining gender roles but lots of cis people are out there doing that as well, because roles are mostly defined by society, not biology (except that nubbin of sex, like breastfeeding), and rational people can question them.

Quote from: Tristyn on July 08, 2016, 04:58:27 AM
Being trans is no different from being cis. Gender is a spectrum just like seuality. How is being born transgender a "birth defect?" Society is the one with the defect, not us. They make ->-bleeped-<- appear as if it is abnormal and it is just upsetting to me that some of us, including myself, see it as something that should not occur in nature as if we are unnatural.

I agree.  People come in all varieties, and genitals don't determine much of anything except genitals and to some extent whether and how they can reproduce.  "->-bleeped-<-" is created by society's insistence that if you have an "outie" you have to be a certain way and get treated a certain way and can't be certain other ways and if you have an "innie" you have to be a certain other way, etc.

Imagine that society didn't divide up humanity based on genitals, but on, say, eye color.  And blue eyed people were expected to be tough and unemotional and wanting to dominate people and liking beer and hunting and fart jokes, whereas hazel-eyed people were expected to be nurturing and emotional and "irrational" and submissive and wanting to be pretty.  (Or make up some other set of personal characteristics to arbitrarily assign to one eye color or another.)

You'd have all these blue-eyed people who aren't tough, etc., by nature, and a lot of them would learn to be that way, sort of, but some of them just couldn't.  And you'd have hazel-eyed people who aren't nurturing, etc., but in certain respects by nature more like the blue-eyed people.  And society would call them "trans-chromatics" and denounce them as Threats To Society.  And  you'd have all manner of Wise People explaining why this was a logical  impossibility and simply a mental illness that, for instance, a hazel-eyed person wanted to be in the NFL or something.

Not to mention people with mixed eye colors, or colors that aren't blue or hazel, and you'd have doctors performing eye surgery on newborns to "correct" their eye color.

And, yes, just as today, you'd have some people who just don't like their eye color and want to change them, but instead of it being a simple matter of preference, it would be this huge Social Issue and require all manner of gatekeeping and suicide threats and all.  You'd have laws outlawing wearing colored contacts because they'd be "deceiving" people about their eye color.

And when they heard about all the drama our world makes over what's in someone's crotch, they'd shake their heads and say you must be making it up because nobody could be that messed up.

Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on July 08, 2016, 06:51:44 AM
I have to dispute this; certainly if you are a feminine woman stuck in a male role you will face a lot of social problems because femininity is devalued in our society, but I don't think it's fair to generalize that our discordant brains and bodies mostly cause us pain because of gender roles. Because I never had any significant gender role issues at all.

...

I also think you are conflating gender roles with gender expression. Genderqueer people call themselves that because of their gender expression,....

First of all, I get the distinction you're trying to make between role and expression, but for me (AMAB), at least, they go together.  Role isn't just whether you're a truck driver or a flower arranger, it's also how you interact with other people, and that depends upon the genders of the people involved.  Standing close and touching is interpreted as a sexual come-on when one of the people is male, but often not when both are female.  Male-male interaction frequently involves subtle "dominance play" (one of the reasons I don't relate well to men is that I can't make myself play that game.)  Men are expected (by both sexes) to be the aggressor in courtship and sex.  And there's a fair amount of gender policing to keep it that way.  I notice that when men do stereotypically "female" things, they usually feel the need to prove that they're still "masculine."  But this is awfully close to your idea of gender expression.   My primary gender problem was that in my childhood there was one right way to be a boy (and a man), and I simply could not do it, and people made my life hell over it.  That "one right way" was a big blob of stuff that covered both what you call "roles" and what you call "expression."

Second: maybe having the wrong hormones was a problem for you.  I've been on HRT for a while (M2F), and while I'm noticing some psychological effects, it's not as though estrogen has suddenly made me feel more comfortable with myself; if anything, I feel in some way I can't describe like I'm a different person, and it's disturbing because I don't like change.  (I still want it, though.)  I never felt like testosterone was causing any sort of psychological problem, it was only the physical effects (baldness, beard, etc.) that bothered me.

As for body vs. brain, it's true I am unhappy with my body, but I can't tell how much is because I associate that look with the masculinity that was forced upon me, how much is aesthetic (I find male bodies ugly and female bodies beautiful), and how much is my brain somehow telling me that I should have a different body.

I often wonder: if my being male had not been used as a reason to coercively and abusively force upon me a way of being that was utterly incompatible with my nature, would I have had any objection to being male?  What would have been my relation to my sex/gender and to others of various genders?  I don't think it's possible to answer that, though.  The hell I went through basically overwhelms everything else.

I suppose the thought of anything entering my body that would change how my brain functions would scare the heck out of me. I don't drink alcohol. I've never tried any illegal drugs. I give in and take aspirin/ibuprofen occasionally because I get headaches frequently (although they rarely help my headaches). I do consume caffeine but it doesn't have any noticeable effect on me. Earlier this year I got a bad infection and I had to take antibiotics to help flush it out. But in that case that was just a foreign compound entering me to remove a foreign invader. They cancelled each other out.

Aside from the crippling depression and social anxiety, I always liked my brain. It is very intelligent. It is very creative. It can multitask. It is generally good. It is always in control. It is capable of objective thinking (it'll never be possible to filter out 100% of bias). But I've always felt like I'm on the edge of a cliff. As it is I'm in perfect balance. I cannot back away from the cliff, but I also will not go over the cliff. If I allowed myself to introduce something that could upset that balance, who's to say I don't finally go over the edge? And we all know where that metaphor goes.

Therapy might help but I've been unsuccessful so far in finding a therapist near me. All websites I visit are outdated. I called up an LGBT center and asked for therapist information. They told me to show up in person and when I did they couldn't find anything for me and just kind of shrugged. So the search continues. Although even if I found one I can't imagine a situation where I'd trust someone enough to open up about anything meaningful.

Quote from: Ashey on July 07, 2016, 05:29:03 PM
I think some of you are looking it all this with a certain bias and incorrect assumptions. Clinical depression is essentially a chemical imbalance in your brain. Anti-depressants are supposed to treat that imbalance, because nothing else will.

I guess to me, if a chemical imbalance is a contributing cause to my depression, then being unbalanced is just my natural state of being. Maybe I'm supposed to be unhappy. Maybe being unhappy is what fuels my creativity. If I balanced those chemicals then I would no longer be myself.

Quote from: Semira on July 08, 2016, 01:26:13 PM
Maybe I'm supposed to be unhappy. Maybe being unhappy is what fuels my creativity. If I balanced those chemicals then I would no longer be myself.

Does that mean you're ok with being unhappy? If it's making it difficult for you to function, then I don't think it's something that should happen. Being unhappy is not a part of anyone. It's you're body telling you that something is wrong.

Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on July 08, 2016, 06:51:44 AM
I have to dispute this

You aren't really saying anything that's contrary to what I said. I said there are two parts to dysphoria; the forced gender roles and the internal gender/sex conflict. If it sounded like I was diminishing the latter conflict in favor of the gender role part then that wasn't my intention. It's why I think that HRT can help even if one isn't presenting socially in their desired role. And when I say role, I do mean it in a broader sense that includes expression. In regard to that, I did say that one may consider themselves to be gender queer because they aren't happy with the roles placed on them. This can mean cis too. What you describe is more 'sex roles'. By gender roles, I mean the expectations placed on us based on our gender. How you're expected to appear, act, etc, which is the basis of how men and women interact with one another. I think that's why being transgender or non-binary freaks a lot of cis people out, because if they can't define those roles or expectations, then they don't quite know how to interact. Maybe that's not a good way to go about human interactions, but it's true and it happens. Anyway, people experience dysphoria vastly differently, as evidenced by every experience written on this site, and even in this thread. You (Anxiety) feel it's more the internal sex/gender conflict while Asche seems to be more inclined toward it being a gender role issue. Everyone is going to see it differently, but neither conflicts with what I'm saying. I'm really just saying it can be both or either to varying degrees. But just because your experience is your experience, doesn't mean that it isn't a gender-role issue for many other trans-folk.