I had someone who was on my friends list post this to their wall on facebook

QuoteTruthfully the world has gone crazy. Men who want to be women demanding to use a woman's bathroom? A president who says we must comply? So called Christians NOT standing up for what they know is right💔. The legalized murder of babies called CHOICE? Who is choosing certainly not the child who doesn't get to live? Criminals killing cops they don't even know in retaliation for deaths that they didn't attend and don't know the facts and have no relation to any of the victims. Even the earth is protesting the sickness of humanity. Yes , only those who know Jesus as Lord can relax and know that He is in control and He has told us in advance that these events must come to pass. I love Him for revealing secret and hidden things and not allowing me to be deceived.

I responded

QuoteIt is clear by this post that you are not a friend of mine, so i am unfriending you! You can go peddle your bigotry, hate, and intolerance somewhere else. PS you certainly are not a Christian, you don't understand the meaning of it. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." That is what Christianity really is about, not what you are spreading. It's a shame you let false prophets lead you astray.

One of the person's friends posted in response,

QuoteHey Susan, I don't know what your problem is, but that is a friend of mine ,and I happen to agree with her. It's okay to look at the facts Susan, it only means that you are paying attention. (The first person) has shared more gospel than I've ever seen your name tagged to. Now please ,be a christian,forgive instead of being angry and let's all be friends

This was my final response on the matter

Quote
You can share the gospel as much as you like, but if you missed the entire meaning and the reason behind it you have wasted your time.

Jesus pointed out himself that let he who is without sin cast the first stone. How can Christians miss such an on point message that no one should be condemning anyone else, you should be concentrating on loving them and through living your life be an example showing them what being a Christian really is.

Oh ya I am one of those trans people, I fought it for many years and as long as I did God punished me for denying who he made me to be. One of the first things I did after coming out and accepting who god made me was to be re-baptized as my true self. I have had a spiritual peace ever since. God has no problem with me, so by what right do you have to condemn me for being who and what he made me.

By following the path god planned for me in life I have been personally responsible for saving hundreds of people who might have otherwise ended their lives.

The Original person responded to my post...

QuoteI am not condemning you. Your future is in Gods hands as is mine. Jesus also said about the same woman, 'Go and sin no more." I am grateful for anyone who helps others to find Christ. My question to you, Do you think God made a mistake when He created you as a man and was it the right thing to do to "recreate" yourself? Or are you playing God? I have temptations too! I don't rearrange the world to allow for my desires. I tell myself no. I crucify my flesh and take up my cross daily. May the God who created you love and keep you and may you always find the Truth in Him.

This was my response

Quote
It's Gods place to judge sin, not yours; but that was what your entire post was about condemning people for not condemning something you personally consider a sin. Something i can personally tell you isn't one.

No god didn't make a mistake, he created me a transgender woman from birth.

According to the Gospel, Jesus saw a man who had been blind since birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus replied: "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

I will say thanks though, for giving me such a wonderful example to show 250,000 people how not to be a Christian.

Here's the end of the thread...

The original person responded,

QuoteSusan Elizabeth Larson please just go in peace. I am entitled to my interpretation of the scriptures. You may think I judge you I don't. It is the Word of God that does. I love you and want to walk through Heaven one day with you but I can't not speak the truth. God bless you.

My reply was

QuoteNo, you are not entitled to a personal interpretation of the scriptures. They say what they actually say, and not whatever you wish to believe they say.

I hope you live long enough to enjoy a spiritual growth that allows you to to see that your current view of the scriptures is so totally out of line with the actual words of the man you believe was sent to this world to die for your sins that even he wouldn't recognize what you are professing to be Christianity.

When and if you do I will be there to personally welcome you back. Until then I wish you a wonderful life!

Susan,
As a cisgender Christian I figured I would answer.
Was this "friend" like on Facebook or something? Just curious.

With this being a transgender support site I try to be very cautious as to how I word my posts. Many suffer from depression and struggle with suicide. The last thing they need here are words as those people posted.

I'm sure every transgender has heard the word of God as presented in many forms. Right, wrong, wishful thinking, wrong spirit and even now and then in truth. This combined with what I said above is more the reason for Christians to channel their words in hope and love. That isn't denying their faith. Even I have said I disagree with many transgender views and uses of scripture but because all have heard the word of God in all it's fashions and so many suffer I try to keep my words, words of hope and encouragement. It's not easy being a cisgender on a transgender site anyway as so many heartless Christians have caused so much needless pain.

There are two girls on this site with whom I have had private conversations. One had the exact same dream as I back around 1976, 1977 or so. We talked and I could tell her what she was wearing, doing and the words to the song she was singing. After meeting her here and seeing this it would be rather foolish to use clobber passages and hateful speech. There must have been a reason for us to meet so many years prior. She is still a joy to converse with when we get the chance.

The other one I have been talking to I just sent a private message. I hope my wording wasn't wrong as I can never fully understand what she went through. This much I know, about 4 or 5 days ago before conversing with her I was laying down and heard a knock on a door. It wasn't the bedroom door or any other house door for that matter. It was clear and when I meditated on this the Lord showed me he does indeed know her and was at the door she opened. She just didn't see him. He knows her pain and trials and tribulations. He does not want her to give up. Since the Lord knows her the last thing I would ever wish to do is to post some twisted scripture or pet peeve.

I know that sharing the gospel is important and most today cannot tell the difference between warning and judging. Both those who hear and those who speak included. That makes for a very great injustice on behalf of both.

For what it is worth I hope I never get to where I risk posting something which causes a transgender person to think about suicide or no longer feel safe here.

May God bless.

hi,

susan, perfect response..

i am a christian, have been one since i made the decision to follow Jesus.  my faith has been my battle ground for years.. and the mistruth and peoples interperations has caused my soo much pain and suffering i could of done with out.. but it has made me stronger and firmer in who i am.

the peace inside me for being me is amazing, and accepting who i am. i feel like he is standing next to me in my walk saying "Finally your being who i created you to be. not what the world wants, I made you perfect in every way. to show the world my Fathers glory. now your letting me navigate for you." with utmost praise and joy in his face.

even my parents have noticed that i look better and happier.

yes i am, but at times a little sad too.. that i wasted all those years and have a heck of a mountain to climb.. but Jesus will be with me every step of the way.

That original Facebook poster wrote the following:

Quote"I love Him for revealing secret and hidden things and not allowing me to be deceived."
"I crucify my flesh and take up my cross daily."

It's the typical Christian rhetoric that someone learns after many years of hearing sermons from the pulpit.  I know, because I've heard those exact quotes many times over from other Christians.

From reading the rest of her babble, it's clear to me that this person has been indoctrinated by years of fundamentalist dogma and can't think for herself.  Debating with these types of simple-minded people doesn't really accomplish anything other than make them dig their heels in further.

Many people fear what they do not understand. IF being transgender makes them foam at the mouth people like me just confuse them as they do not know what do with someone like me. Being intersexxed means that according to the medical definition used in the usa i can not be transgender. But as my kids and family can tell you I am as male as they come the only difference is that I have a female looking (mostly) body. When i toss out that if chemicals like artificial progesterone and nature can make a human not 100% male or female why can't it do the same thing to the brain. I am living proof it does affect the brain. Let them sputter and growl. They obviously over looked this passage in the bible

Matthew 19:11"Not everyone can accept this word," Jesus answered, "but only those to whom it has been given. 12For there are eunuchs who were born that way; others were made that way by men; and still others live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Extracts: When trans woman Viviany Belebony, 26, shocked the Brazilian public in the beginning of June by parading in São Paulo LGBT Pride as a bloody, naked version of crucified Jesus Christ, an extremely conservative public claimed blasphemy. Viviany nailed herself to the cross — which had the saying "NO MORE HOMOPHOBIA" on the top — during Pride because she wanted to represent the pain and death suffered by the LGBT community. She insists that she was not dressed as Jesus (like so many are claiming) but as a beaten, injured version of herself...
   Since then, Viviany has received death threats every day, avoids leaving her house because of panic attacks, and only attends events when she is surrounded by friends who make her feel safe.
   Being transgender in Brazil can be particularly lethal: the country holds the highest murder rate of trans people in the world, according to Transrespect Versus Transphobia. Terrifyingly, according to the group Transrevolução, life expectancy for trans people is about 30, against the cis-average of 75.
   The aftermath of Viviany's Pride protest is a sample of Brazilian society's intolerance towards transgender people, particularly from religious branches of the population.


http://www.ravishly.com/2015/07/02/nailed-cross-interview-viviany-belebony-and-her-fight-against-transphobia-warning-graphic

It seems once a person arrives at the level of having convinced themselves that they possess the one and only "TRUTH" then nothing is likely to change their minds.  Whether it is science, scripture, experience or hard factual evidence some folks are immune to learning and new information.....the stuff that actually happens every day.

The dust bin of history is filled with once powerful religious ideas, gods, deamons and failed prophets.  But history takes research, critical thinking and yes, learning too

There is also Matthew 5:30, which states "if thy right hand offends thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. For it is more profitable that one of thy members perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell".

Would this not make transition sensible when one is highly dissatisfied with being stuck in a gender that offends that one?

Quote from: Lady Sarah on July 11, 2016, 12:16:48 AM
There is also Matthew 5:30, which states "if thy right hand offends thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. For it is more profitable that one of thy members perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell".

Would this not make transition sensible when one is highly dissatisfied with being stuck in a gender that offends that one?

Offend in that context means something that causes one to sin.

The noun "offense" and the verb "offend" are also used in reference to a person being caused to stumble or to do what is wrong. There are three ways in which this may happen:
(1) There may be something in the individual which causes him or her to stumble. Jesus expresses the seriousness of this, and, though speaking metaphorically, indicates the strenuous steps of prevention (Mt 5:29–30; 18:8–9). "Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible"

Given that definition, I think that treating dysphoria might actually fit since dysphoria can manifest a number of symptoms that are sin.

I was just having that conversation with someone yesterday on how, even if taking steps towards transition are sin, the things that it fixed such as anger, short temperedness towards others, and hatred towards life were worse sins.


Sapere Aude

I have a interesting example of this subject. I am in the process of securing HRT through the VA health care system. Two years ago I came out to myself and no longer fought what I thought was the good fight in trying to eliminate the trans feelings that I have had since childhood. Since then the dysphoria has slowly increased to the point where a month ago I made the appointment and came out to my general care provider (one of the hardest things I have done). She basically stated that she was not sure how to proceed but had blood samples taken for a base reading and set up a appointment with a therapist. After meeting with the therapist (a most wonderful woman) she recommended that I should go forward with the process and made a follow up appointment for me with my general care provider. During that follow up appointment she asked how the therapist meeting went and I told her the context of the session and that it went very well. It was at this point that she informed me that she would not treat me for GD, not only that but she would no longer treat me as my general care provider because of her religious beliefs. I then asked her what religion she was and told me she was a Christian. I was basically speechless at first but after gathering my thoughts informed her that I was also a Christian and that my Catholic faith was a very important part of my life. I then told her that I respected her views but she was not any more a Christian than I was. After leaving the appointment the more I thought about it the angrier I became. Here is a physician, hired to treat all patients no matter what their ailments are or their background is. She took a oath to uphold those and to treat all patients as one. I then contacted my therapist and informed her of what had taken place. She initially was also speechless and then became furious with what had transpired. She has since contacted her superior and made the statement that if she cannot treat me she should not be allowed to treat anyone. I am a very strong willed individual and basically have taken this as a bump in the road, my fear is, and I expressed this to my therapist is what would have happened if someone with severe dysphoria had that experience and how they would have reacted. Shows that bigot's exist where one would least expect, but I am very confident in stating that I will not be afraid to stand along side her when out time comes to stand in front of our lord on judgement day. Hugs

Your story brings to mind something I read this morning.

Psalm 118:42 So shall I answer them that reproach me in any thing; that I have trusted in thy words.

Until very recently the words and actions of those people would make me irate.  Now I just figure they are heaping coals on their own heads.  That said though, I agree with you reporting the Dr. for failing to do her job in any way.

Besides, if she thinks we are not Christians maybe she should heed 1 Cor 5

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; 10 not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the Church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you."

The fundamentalists display an astonishing ignorance of the book they elevate to deity.


Sapere Aude

I would like to know exactly where it says in the Bible that a person is committing a sin if he/she lives in a role other than announced by medical doctors at birth or recorded at city hall?

I would like to know where DNA and chromosomes are mentioned in scripture?

I would like to see where any scientific arguments are used in scripture as the basis of sin, or the basis of anything spiritual for that matter?

Quote from: Virginia Hall on September 26, 2016, 04:53:35 AM
I would like to know exactly where it says in the Bible that a person is committing a sin if he/she lives in a role other than announced by medical doctors at birth or recorded at city hall?

I would like to know where DNA and chromosomes are mentioned in scripture?

I would like to see where any scientific arguments are used in scripture as the basis of sin, or the basis of anything spiritual for that matter?

In Short - they don't

I hold a bachelor of theology and what I can say is that Susans responses were far more in line with the message of scripture than those of the bigoted so called friend.

Jesus summed it up with the Love the Lord... and Love your neighbour line...
Micah the prophet summed it up as Loving Kindness, doing justice and walking humbly before God.

Another key them is the role of the people of God in looking out for the widow, the stranger and the orphan - easily the three most identifiable marginalised groups in line with the time of the writings - many parallels to this could be put into play as contempory parallels....

Trans - well LGBTIQA+ Disabled, Single Parents, People of colour, refugees and so I could go on.

Jesus never spoke of excluding others based on who they were, the opposite in fact, he sat in the homes of all the elite and the outcast.
The original call to Abram was to be a blessing, to all. He was to bless his family, his line, his people and other peoples.

As a Christian transwoman, I am convinced that I am not in sin, I am convinced I am as much a part of God's people a any other person who dares to follow Jesus.

Susan, thank you for the message and the place you bring us here.

Susan responded in a perfectly factual, calm way to the Christian. It is sad when a Christian chooses to argue about/ignore the two most important verses in the bible according to Christ.

It seems like some Christians are far more interested in focusing on the old covenant damnation verses and applying them to people that they don't like - the other verses about loving people get ignored. I believe that this behavior is based in human nature and is not of the spirit.

As others have said there are no verses that condemn being transgender - the ones that seem to really don't when you delve into the original language and the context of when they were written. And then there are the verses about the Eunuchs who were considered OK by God.

The bible says that God looks at a person's heart while man judges the outside of the person. This is what this "friend" of Susan was doing.

I hate to say this but the old covenant is also the new covenant with one exception instead if being written in stone they will be wrote on hearts of flesh. The covenant contains both curses and blessings,most don't read the blessings but chose to focus in the blessing's. Christians don't like me for I know the Bible better then their preachers.

There is another huge elephant in the theological room and most fundamentalists ignore it,or even flat out deny it. The idea of whether scripture is accurate or not (literal vs not literal) and whether it was ever meant to be "worshiped" the way that some do.

Clearly to those who do not believe its literal, its understanding of history/creation, its representation of science etc are metaphor or representative at best. It is not one book but many books and several councils of men decided which books would be sacred. It's a beautiful set of books, challenges us and also talks a lot about what it means to follow Christ, and how we should treat one another.

So how does once use certain "power verses" about what is sin, when the entire body of work is representative and they are taking it out of context? Because they want to and because it reinforces other world views that they hold. Very pharisee like to put literature over people.

Staying out of it.

Mark Twain — "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

I am out of the Abrahamic world, but in the Indic world where we battle Muslim and Christian influence intrusions into Hindu space, which gives room for LBGTQIA people according to Sanskrit text discussing these issues.

The Bible was written to the house if israel,the family if Shem of Noah and his offspring.The mechezadic king of shalom/Salem/Jerusalem was Shem whom Abraham went to was his many time Gran Pappy. The outsider's like us have access to their book because of the universal/Catholic Church,read Revelation who is called firiIsrael then the mixed multitudes who believe. I don't have a fancy paper on theology but I do know this book very well and it's symbology that it contains. I'm a firm believer in this book and I know our Creator made us this way for some reason,havent found the reason yet. To some people we are an abomination,but then Adam must have been an abomination also for he was a hermorphidite and the Word took the womb out of Adam and created Eve,because of this this gene is still in us and works differently among the populations of the world,some are born man or woman,some have remnants of Adam before Eve was created both male and female,or female and male living in one body.

Next time you get something like this just tell them to read all the other religions i'm sure if they take the time to do so they'll come back with another mindset and possibly to apologize. Although people don't tend to read both sides
of stories i only skimmed this but i'd suggest just letting it go no need in fighting they want to be jerks so be it.

 

I come from a religious family. Grandfather and Grandmother were both clergy. My grandfather graduated from Biola College, Grandma got hers in the mail. I have not known more hate than that spewed by my grandmother.  Look you can do all the praising you want, all the condemning for abortions you want. Go ahead and condemn me for being "Trans" while you are at it condemn the drug companies and medical staff that prescribed female hormones to mothers to prevent miscarriages. No I did not ask for this. This was forced upon me. I only responded to the chain of events set in motion because the drugs were cheap. They were also unable to do the job they were purported to do. From 1937 to 1971 this practice went on. Since 2004 research has been stonewalled by right wing politicians trying to prove their religious beliefs. As a result there are only small studies done. Let me ask a question. Do you believe in God? Do you believe God has a plan? Do you believe God is responsible for everything good in your life, while Satan is responsible for the bad stuff? If you answered yes to any of these questions, perhaps you can give me an explanation. Why would God allow one of his greatest creations, Peggy Huddleston die of cancer at the age of 20? Why would God allow any child to die an early death? What was Steve M doing in combat when God said thou shalt not kill? Why would God allow that drunk driver who admits to drinking 13 beers before getting on the road and then running down my Mother? Where is God as a religious zealot places a bomb at an abortion clinic?  Or the irony of irony's, killing an abortion provider as he attends church. No your piety does not protect you from criticizing your hypocrisy, bigotry, raciality, hate, misguidance, your assumed goodness. You cannot even be honest. You have to reinterpret even the Bible to fit your dogma. And you worry about what bathroom we use, or how we dress, how we present in public? How we value our families?  You got bigger "fish" to fry.