I feel like i should learn to socialize more male and that i need to learn how to interact with men like me
I think i'm feeling like this because being raised female i never got the chance to feel like i was a guy and socialize with guys while being seen as a male instead. That makes me feel really down that i have difficulty speaking with other males and feeling like i fit into the group. And it isn't right either because in reality there is no real way to be its just a bunch of stereotypes. and iv'e had feelings like this before that iv'e deal with that come back sometimes accept i think it came back but in another way resulting in me feeling like this. I don't know what to do about it, but it makes me uncomfortable and unhappy because i want to feel like i can relate to other men like me. I know there is no right or wrong way to be myself or be masculine but i'm having that problem at the moment where i can't get it out of my head i keep thinking silly things like "I wan't to fit in with the guys" "Do i fit in?" "I look silly, i act feminine"
and feeling like i'm outcaste or didn't learn enough male things has been bothering me. I don't even know how to turn this into a question it's things like this i'm have problems putting together so people can try and help i don't know if its because its to hard or if its something else. But yea, needed to speak about it so decided to make a post.
I'm not saying that feminine is wrong or you need to be masculine, but i'm feeling that i do and if i don't i won't fit for weird reasons, like today i had to leave a conversation because i felt like this inside.
   

It takes time to adjust. For me I guess it was easy because I always played with guys and had some better friendships with them. The only guy I hang out with now is also FtM and on top of that I honestly don't have any other real friends. I don't really consider people from my job close friends either. It was also not to hard for me at work because when I started I was kind of "Butchy" so people saw me more masculine and it was easier for them to accept my transition.

You don't have to socialize with super alpha men. I sure don't because most of them are a-holes . Again it does take time to get use to your identity but you'll get there.

I always preferred male friends to female, but I was raised mostly by women and feel like I need to brake free of their influences on me. The only problem with male friends is that they saw me as an attractive girl and treated me like one and I want them to treat me like another man.

It would help you to make some male friends with your interests.

Maybe because I always played with boys a lot growing up, I don't find boys mysterious. I believe there is a such thing as a bro code but it's not really hard to figure out, maybe hard to live sometimes. I find it easy to make friends with men or women; actually, things are going to change with women when I will be perceived more male and that is unfortunate, but I think the people who would really treat me differently aren't the people I would have really clicked with anyway. I tend to be more comfortable with people who are more comfortable in mixed groups.

The bro code can be pretty limiting, but you have to realize that some guys live by it and if your whole group of friends is into that mindset you can really be punished for not fitting the mold. Yeah, it's stereotypical and stupid. So be smarter than the bro code, relate to it but don't be owned by it.

I'm struggling with this too. The few boys/men my age I'm able to spend time with act very awkwardly around me because they're not sure how to treat a trans person - just like I'm not sure how to treat a cis male

The ones who are comfortable with the trans thing see themselves as gatekeepers to the world of masculinity - they keep trying to school me in the ways of the modern man. It's frustrating - I'm not trying to become authentically male. Like you say, it's just more stereotypes. I'm trying to be authentically me, whatever that means. I appreciate them trying to help, but it just adds to the anxiety and those "you're not one of us" vibes.

I think the secret is not to worry about fitting in. Everyone does, cis or trans - and everyone's drawn to the people who seem like they don't. If you can act like you're secure in yourself and your identity, even if you're faking it, people will respond. Don't question whether you fit in - take it for granted that you do. I find that helps with my anxiety. It also helps to scream inside my head, "these are people, not men!" because when I focus on their maleness, like you I find myself fleeing conversations, the anxiety gets so bad. Usually to throw up in whatever appealing bush I can find.

Don't doubt yourself. You're wonderful the way you are, and people can see that whether you come across as masculine or not. Spending time with other men, you'll naturally pick up on their mannerisms - you probably fit in better than you realize. Just try not to worry about it. Easier said than done, I know, but it'll all come naturally in time.

I have four brothers so i've 'seen behind the curtain' but I also feel different from other guys, mostly because i look different, and they assume that I'm much younger even if i'm the same age

my boyfriend is cis though, and he doesn't really 'get' most guys either, so it's not a uniquely trans thing

Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on July 07, 2016, 03:23:01 PM
Maybe because I always played with boys a lot growing up, I don't find boys mysterious. I believe there is a such thing as a bro code but it's not really hard to figure out, maybe hard to live sometimes. I find it easy to make friends with men or women; actually, things are going to change with women when I will be perceived more male and that is unfortunate, but I think the people who would really treat me differently aren't the people I would have really clicked with anyway. I tend to be more comfortable with people who are more comfortable in mixed groups.

The bro code can be pretty limiting, but you have to realize that some guys live by it and if your whole group of friends is into that mindset you can really be punished for not fitting the mold. Yeah, it's stereotypical and stupid. So be smarter than the bro code, relate to it but don't be owned by it.

Isn't that only the alpha male, frat boys?

I feel like I fit in with my male friends pretty well for the most part. There are some things though that I'm still awkward with - when to shake hands, and when to do the complicated grip thing? I don't know. I always seem to screw that up somehow. Everyone else seems to know ... And greeting girls here. Now I have to do the kiss thing, and proper behaviour says I have to initiate it.

I'd really rather just shake hands. lol.

If you want to do this then spend some time observing men. How they stand, how they talk, where they put their eyes, how they sit, mannerisms,  etc. etc. Then their speech patterns/tones and the sort of things they do and don't talk about. All men are different but there are some behaviors and patterns much less prevalent in men than women and you will draw more attention to yourself if you exhibit them as a man.

Or you could simply be yourself and just be friendly to anyone but maintain that respectful distance. As a man, you'll be expected to keep that distance to a degree from other men (unless they are close friends) and also from women, because as we know society is very much more frightened of men and considers them predatory to women and children. You need to keep this in mind when socializing, that your actions will be viewed quite differently.

Personally I am not interested in competing with other men or in trying to attract women, and I let my friendships develop on the basis of shared interest or having to work together. Friendships of substance tend to grow naturally through shared interest with men, and I'm pretty happy with that arrangement. Be aware that men do not automatically gravitate to other men in the way women tend to with women on the basis of their shared experiences "as women". If you experienced that while presenting female, you will not likely experience it from women or men while presenting male. It's handy to be aware of this in advance.   

Quote from: alienbodybuilder on July 09, 2016, 09:05:56 PM
Isn't that only the alpha male, frat boys?

Sadly, nerd boys live by bro code as well. Frat boys just have it elaborated to this intricate art which both allows for intimacy and prevents it (since all interactions must be determined by the bro code--what if you're really not a bro prep tool and you want to discuss philosophy without s->-bleeped-<-ing? oops, now you're a weirdo). Parts of the bro code are pretty pervasive and include all that mandatory "not gay" stuff like avoiding looking at other guys' junk (although plenty of guys surreptitiously check each other out if only to see how they 'measure up'), not talking in restrooms, not sitting next to people in certain situations, etc. I put "not gay" in quotes because it's driven by homophobia but doesn't actually have anything to do with being gay or not.

If you watch Big Bang Theory, which I hate, but whatever, you'll see plenty of examples of bro code among the nerd boys and this isn't that divorced from real life. I'm not saying there aren't nerds (especially D&D geeks and LARPers) who manage to rise above this kind of stuff, but there are plenty more anxious-about-their-masculinity nerds to drown them out.

I'm struggling a bit myself with making male friends, as I've always been closer to females Ave raised to strictly follow the female stereotypes, but slowly am learning how to act like a guy by observation while still being able to retain my closeness to females. It's a pain because some guys feel it's their job and my goal to act more like a guy and I just wanted to chill for a few. They are also the ones who don't know I'm trans and keep trying to get me to validate my gender to them. A few guys who know I'm trans just tell me what I'm doing that's overly feminine and that I appreciate. So any male friends who know about my gender id are ones I am actually closest to and ones who simply say "feminine" when I'm doing something very feminine to remind me. It helps me at least.

Quote from: alienbodybuilder on July 06, 2016, 10:47:49 PM
I always preferred male friends to female, but I was raised mostly by women and feel like I need to brake free of their influences on me. The only problem with male friends is that they saw me as an attractive girl and treated me like one and I want them to treat me like another man.

It would help you to make some male friends with your interests.

This always happens to me -_-

It depends who your friends are. I found with poorly socialized geeks ( my people!) that there were some ->-bleeped-<-s who would always treat me like a girl (which is to say, really inappropriately) even though there are plenty of geeks who are "androgynous" type people who don't have strongly masc or fem gender expression and prefer socializing in mixed groups of men and women to single sex environments. I got along with such people just fine. Funnily enough, I had a friend in high school who was a freak around women but didn't treat me that way. I wore a hoodie every day to cover my body and hair. His stupid attitude made me uncomfortable and caused me to lose respect for him, though.

I hang out with a lot of radical activists now and they have been very cool about accepting me, even correctly gendering me before I passed. They've met trans people before, after all, radicals, but even so, they're just really accepting people. I have been so grateful for that.

At work the more open minded guys have been all, "Welcome to the club, bro" and making jokes about the gender barrier, whereas more uptight sorts are still using my "dead name" and misgendering me.

I'm waiting for that facial hair. It will make those folks calling me by a female name look silly.

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on July 10, 2016, 04:03:51 PM
If you want to do this then spend some time observing men. How they stand, how they talk, where they put their eyes, how they sit, mannerisms,  etc. etc. Then their speech patterns/tones and the sort of things they do and don't talk about. All men are different but there are some behaviors and patterns much less prevalent in men than women and you will draw more attention to yourself if you exhibit them as a man.

Or you could simply be yourself and just be friendly to anyone but maintain that respectful distance. As a man, you'll be expected to keep that distance to a degree from other men (unless they are close friends) and also from women, because as we know society is very much more frightened of men and considers them predatory to women and children. You need to keep this in mind when socializing, that your actions will be viewed quite differently.

Personally I am not interested in competing with other men or in trying to attract women, and I let my friendships develop on the basis of shared interest or having to work together. Friendships of substance tend to grow naturally through shared interest with men, and I'm pretty happy with that arrangement. Be aware that men do not automatically gravitate to other men in the way women tend to with women on the basis of their shared experiences "as women". If you experienced that while presenting female, you will not likely experience it from women or men while presenting male. It's handy to be aware of this in advance.

Solid sounding advice, reading this thread with interest. I'm gonna go put my people watching -- err, man watching-- skills to use today for some the stuff you've pointed out here. I promise not to be a creeper.

Generally I've done better with making friends with males over my life, but I have some rather nonconforming female friends too that I'm close with. Definitely key to find common interests though.

I'm friendly by nature, but good point about that distance... I'm assuming you mean physical distance here? Also read that generally a lot of guys physically take up more space, i.e sprawling out on the subway with legs apart or stretched, where women tend to compress themselves. Probably a gross generalization.

Quote from: Hughie on July 16, 2016, 10:21:00 AM
Solid sounding advice, reading this thread with interest. I'm gonna go put my people watching -- err, man watching-- skills to use today for some the stuff you've pointed out here. I promise not to be a creeper.

Generally I've done better with making friends with males over my life, but I have some rather nonconforming female friends too that I'm close with. Definitely key to find common interests though.

I'm friendly by nature, but good point about that distance... I'm assuming you mean physical distance here? Also read that generally a lot of guys physically take up more space, i.e sprawling out on the subway with legs apart or stretched, where women tend to compress themselves. Probably a gross generalization.

Physical distance, touching etc. yes. Among friends and close friends it can be a different matter.

All people have the thing called the "interpersonal distance" - the specific distance we allow strangers, friends and intimates to approach us, which is often similar for men and women, but when it comes to those we work with, socialize with, the amount of space men give each other vs. women can be markedly different. It does depend on the personalities and inclination involved tho. My sister is very different from me in that she is a very touchy-feeling type person, likes hugging people and so on and I generally don't even enjoy hugging relatives or touching anybody. Not because I identify male specifically, but I notice I'm often more uncomfortable in female company because they are happier on the whole to be in physical contact with both male and female friends, and my male friends are content not to touch each other much at all, which suits me better.

Guys often take up the space because crushing their legs together is less comfortable given what's often between them. "Better ventilation" as one person I know said it. Some might do it as a gesture - "I own this seat and the two others on either side" kind of thing - which I've seen teens do on the train/bus and will do myself if no people are present that need the space (I usually go to the back and stick one leg across the seat and relax if nobody's around). So part body language sometimes, and part functionality I suppose. With women I'm not really sure, might be body language for some other reason, and the idea that a woman who leaves her legs wide open is being uncouth. I remember in school a girl was sitting with her legs out on a bench and other girls would jokingly tell her to "close your legs!" and laugh. I assume it's some attitude from the past aimed at not giving pervs something to stare at (or seeming like you want them to look).

Reminds me of that "manspreading" thing. It's true some guys certainly do "manspread" on public transport taking up more space than necessary, but then I've seen women with 3 or 4 shopping bags occupying the next seat to them so seems about even. 

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on July 16, 2016, 12:55:00 PM
Physical distance, touching etc. yes. Among friends and close friends it can be a different matter.

All people have the thing called the "interpersonal distance" - the specific distance we allow strangers, friends and intimates to approach us, which is often similar for men and women, but when it comes to those we work with, socialize with, the amount of space men give each other vs. women can be markedly different. It does depend on the personalities and inclination involved tho. My sister is very different from me in that she is a very touchy-feeling type person, likes hugging people and so on and I generally don't even enjoy hugging relatives or touching anybody. Not because I identify male specifically, but I notice I'm often more uncomfortable in female company because they are happier on the whole to be in physical contact with both male and female friends, and my male friends are content not to touch each other much at all, which suits me better.

Guys often take up the space because crushing their legs together is less comfortable given what's often between them. "Better ventilation" as one person I know said it. Some might do it as a gesture - "I own this seat and the two others on either side" kind of thing - which I've seen teens do on the train/bus and will do myself if no people are present that need the space (I usually go to the back and stick one leg across the seat and relax if nobody's around). So part body language sometimes, and part functionality I suppose. With women I'm not really sure, might be body language for some other reason, and the idea that a woman who leaves her legs wide open is being uncouth. I remember in school a girl was sitting with her legs out on a bench and other girls would jokingly tell her to "close your legs!" and laugh. I assume it's some attitude from the past aimed at not giving pervs something to stare at (or seeming like you want them to look).

Reminds me of that "manspreading" thing. It's true some guys certainly do "manspread" on public transport taking up more space than necessary, but then I've seen women with 3 or 4 shopping bags occupying the next seat to them so seems about even. 

Lol, love the "manspreading" vs "shopspreading". Valid points. People take up too much room on transit, period.

I have to agree I'm not a touchy-feely person either. I don't usually like being touched or touching others. I never socialised well as a female, I guess? Plus I'm Canadian, and we need at least one igloo-width between us at all times. True story.

I met up with a group of trans men today for the first time, so that was the bulk of my people watching today. They all were very male to me, in terms of their body language. A few manspreaders in the lot, heh.

I used to sprawl or "manspread" as a kid. I eventually got trained out of it, but ... that sock will make you manspread all over again.

Taking up two seats on public transit is a dick move. Look, nobody wants a seatmate, but eventually the train/bus gets full. Yes, women are known to put giant bags on the seat next to them ... just like students dump their backpack there and then put headphones in and pretend not to notice commuters asking them to let them sit down. There's also that "pretend you're asleep" gambit.

Quote from: WorkingOnThomas on July 10, 2016, 07:51:34 AM
I feel like I fit in with my male friends pretty well for the most part. There are some things though that I'm still awkward with - when to shake hands, and when to do the complicated grip thing? I don't know. I always seem to screw that up somehow. Everyone else seems to know ... And greeting girls here. Now I have to do the kiss thing, and proper behaviour says I have to initiate it.

I'd really rather just shake hands. lol.

It always came naturally for me to initiate a kiss. I didn't know that was a gender thing.


As for personal space I require a bunch of it and I'm not a big person. I hate hugs and touchy feely things. Women always got insulted that I didn't commiserate with them.

Quote from: alienbodybuilder on July 18, 2016, 10:03:49 AM
It always came naturally for me to initiate a kiss. I didn't know that was a gender thing.


As for personal space I require a bunch of it and I'm not a big person. I hate hugs and touchy feely things. Women always got insulted that I didn't commiserate with them.

Yeah, I live in Belgium, and the rules for greeting people/saying good bye are kind of complicated (from my point of view). Guys are expected to lean in to kiss girls, not the other way around. And offering to shake a woman's hand (as a guy, at least) is perceived as an insult apparently.