By Eugene Scott and Ashley Killough, CNN
Updated 1:27 PM ET, Tue July 19, 2016

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/19/politics/ben-carson-transgender/

"For thousands of years, mankind has known what a man is and what a woman is," Carson said to applause Tuesday at the Florida delegation breakfast near the Republican National Convention in Cleveland. "And now all of a sudden we don't know anymore. Now, is that the height of absurdity? Because today you feel like a woman, even though everything about you genetically says that you're a man or vice versa?

"Wouldn't that be the same as if you woke up tomorrow morning after seeing a movie about Afghanistan or reading some books and said, 'You know what? I'm Afghanistan. I know I don't look that way. My ancestors came from Sweden, or something, I don't know. But I really am. And if you say I'm not, (then) you're racist,'" the former presidential candidate continued.

*****

Ben Carson is under consideration for posts of Surgeon General or Secretary of Health and Human Services in a Trump administration . . .

Well, it's clear he's no rocket scientist.  And I'm sure brain surgeons around the world wish they didn't have to admit he's one of theirs.   

Some people just can't help showing off their outstanding ignorance.

1. People for thousands of years have known trans people existed and were celebrated not rejected.

2. How on earth is he a brain surgeon but not understand how the brain works 

He is so obviously "the" authority in this area.


Just ignore.

I agree it is best to ignore. Less attention we give it the better off we will be.

Quote from: itsApril on July 19, 2016, 03:00:34 PM
"Wouldn't that be the same as if you woke up tomorrow morning after seeing a movie about Afghanistan or reading some books and said, 'You know what? I'm Afghanistan. I know I don't look that way. My ancestors came from Sweden, or something, I don't know. But I really am. And if you say I'm not, (then) you're racist,'" the former presidential candidate continued.

Disclaimer: I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate in order to foster a thoughtful and enlightened debate.  Please let me know if anything I'm saying is disrespectful (I don't intend it to be, so sorry if it is), and I request that you be respectful in turn.

In my opinion, there's a somewhat valid argument (or at the least, I can understand how this issue can confuse someone) behind his words, even if he stated it poorly.  At the very least, I've had similar debates with people who are very confused about where to draw the line between trans people and people like what Ben Carson describes.

The particular debate I had was actually centered around the case of a middle-aged man transitioning to become a woman AND a 6 year old girl: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3356084/I-ve-gone-child-Husband-father-seven-52-leaves-wife-kids-live-transgender-SIX-YEAR-OLD-girl-named-Stefonknee.html

While it intuitively seems to me like the gender transition is legitimate but the age transition is the result of wishes to not have to deal with the responsibilities of being an adult, I find it hard to construct a satisfying argument.  The best I can come up with is that being a transgender person is not unreasonable while being a trans-age person is unreasonable (because the person is clearly not a 6 year old).  But at the same time, it's very easy for a person who is not understanding of the LGBTQ+ community to say that many transgender people do not look like the gender that reflects their gender identity.  Because of this, I was at a loss for how to delineate between legitimate transitions and illegitimate ones.

However, this all seems very relativistic and is not remotely a black and white, clear cut quandary.  Who gets to say what is legitimate and what isn't?

Quote from: popa910 on July 22, 2016, 02:04:53 AM

While it intuitively seems to me like the gender transition is legitimate but the age transition is the result of wishes to not have to deal with the responsibilities of being an adult, I find it hard to construct a satisfying argument.  The best I can come up with is that being a transgender person is not unreasonable while being a trans-age person is unreasonable (because the person is clearly not a 6 year old).  But at the same time, it's very easy for a person who is not understanding of the LGBTQ+ community to say that many transgender people do not look like the gender that reflects their gender identity.  Because of this, I was at a loss for how to delineate between legitimate transitions and illegitimate ones.

However, this all seems very relativistic and is not remotely a black and white, clear cut quandary.  Who gets to say what is legitimate and what isn't?

The difference is that there is currently enough science providing evidence that trans identity is rooted in prenatal brain development that one must be deliberately obtuse to ignore it. 

Quote from: popa910 on July 22, 2016, 02:04:53 AMBut at the same time, it's very easy for a person who is not understanding of the LGBTQ+ community to say that many transgender people do not look like the gender that reflects their gender identity.  Because of this, I was at a loss for how to delineate between legitimate transitions and illegitimate ones.

This is the argument in favour of "gate-keeping" by health care professionals.  While gate-keeping is a pain in the butt for those of us who just want to get on with our transition, and while it offends some to have someone else second-guess their self-diagnosis, the purpose is to ensure that the self-diagnosis meets some objective criteria and is not just a deluded whim.

Reasoned debate can be enlightening but even with our mods there is often the resort to flaming and worse if it involves political theater.

There is a genre of trans related fantasy where in the central character is forced in some way (magic etc) to become a little girl.  Living the fantasy is delusional of course.  The suggestion that we are delusional is offensive at best. 

Some will suggest the "furries" subculture as another reference for trivializing our reality.  Such mythology and anthropomorphic concepts are part of literature and entertainment but not science or reality.

We have heard Ben Carson like comments many times before from some educated people who may have missed out on Empathy and Compassion 101.  There are those who also wish to ignore the science and history and simply try to trivialize our very real experience and remove us from the public sphere.

Creating more divisiveness and fear of the "others" is a tragic old weapon of dictators and tyrants in search of power and minions to control.  We can understand that people who have never felt the pain and consequences of being transgender may be too quick to dismiss us but I am guessing this genie is out of the bottle permantly for individuals and the communities we inhabit.

Thanks guys for reminding me about the science!  At the time of the debate in question (6-7 months ago), I had no idea of the scientific studies that have lent support to the legitimacy of the trans community.

Quote from: Deborah on July 22, 2016, 05:27:55 AM
The difference is that there is currently enough science providing evidence that trans identity is rooted in prenatal brain development that one must be deliberately obtuse to ignore it. 

Unfortunately, many of the people who are unenlightened about LGBTQ+ people are often the same people who tend to ignore science and facts.  The challenge is to be able to penetrate their "armor".  Sometimes, this can be a rather interesting endeavor, so we'll see.

Thankfully, the person in question is not even slightly hostile towards the trans community; he just doesn't understand it, yet.