Which science related arguments do you use when you're talking to conservatives or skeptical people when you discuss the transgender/transsexual related things? I really wants some good science related arguments. I've discovered it's both religious and non-religious people that says being transgender is a mental illness; that we're crazy and all that stuffs. I doesn't believe their opinions is true, but I've not so much experiences about science either. Some of them also says the science don't support it. Many people considering being transgender is a mental illness and compares it to people who wants to amputee their limbs. (I doesn't have any opinions about BIID and is neutral in that debate. I just doesn't want it to be compared to it, because it's two very difference things.) But there are also many people (both transgender and cis people) who support us and doesn't think it's a mental illness. Do we have evidence it's not a illness? I thinks we have, but I'm not 100% sure. Therefor I asks you for arguments and advice.

Alas, the country I'm in has become incredibly polarized.  Trying to make an argument based on science won't work with our conservative folks, as 'science has a well-known liberal bias'.  Facts are also considered to be biased.  Seriously.  A comedian coined a word several years ago, "truthiness" to refer to what one's "gut feeling" implies is correct, or is at least consistent with one's ideology.

Truthiness is considered to be preferable to mere facts.

Given this state, it is incredibly hard to engage in actual reasoned debate with our local flavor of 'conservative'.  I don't bother any more.

Skeptical but open-minded people, while rare, can be engaged in rational discussion.  I generally will discuss this in terms of prenatal environment, how gender development actually works, and use several images I have on my smartphone that illustrate differences in the sex-differentiated structures in the brain, such as the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis in cismen, ciswomen, and transwoman.

When people are convinced one is born either male or female and there is no middle ground, I can always cite the scientific proof of those born physically intersex. Or those with unusual XX/XY chromosome configurations. Plenty of evidence documented and photographic exists of the fact that nature doesn't always churn out one or the other mode of human being perfectly, and if the person is born with both male and female genitalia, or internal organs, then naturally they can probably have conflicted thoughts and feelings about gender. I'd ask them if they were the doctor delivering the birth of an intersex baby, what they would pick for the gender if the person had both penile and vaginal tissues. How would they decide between one or the other when what you see might be halfway between? It's not an answerable question in terms black and white. And then I'd ask them, if they chose a given gender for that child, raised them as that gender, would they be at all surprised if the child felt they didn't fit into one mold or the other? And when they entered puberty they possibly felt even more confused or dysphoric?

Then it's just a case of expanding this idea to cover the fact that hormones determine our development in the brain, that there are brain differences that are scientifically observable, and that just because someone has the outward appearance of a gender, does not automatically mean their brains are in sync with it.

It's generally a complete waste of time.  Most of them live in an alternate reality.

For example, I was stating to a group of conservatives the other day that LGBT are discriminated against in jobs, housing, etc.  They simply deny that this is in any way happening in America.

I agree, not worth the time. Logic sounds like Charlie Brown's parents when their mind is made up. "waah, waah waah waah)

I do, however, feel that those that protest the most are probably in the closet and don't want to admit it.

My boss is totally anti anything to do with LGBT, but I have caught him checking out one of the guys here a number of occasions. To be fair the guy he's checking out is painfully hot though.

No point in using science, because they've already decided that science is wrong.  "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."  (variously attributed to George Carlin or Mark Twain)

Science they disagree with is always part of the secret liberal plot to undermine the family, destroy Christianity, and promote communism.  How can you possibly reason with that?

I was born in the middle of the 20th century. At the time many woman estimated to be 10 million were prescribed DES aka Diethylstilbestrol a synthetic female hormone prescribed to pregnant women to prevent miscarriages. If the DES is introduced at the enc in the first trimester around week 10 the body and genitalia have already been formed. Unfortunately the des female hormones often 3000 to 4000 times more than is necessary,overtake the testosterone that formed the gonads and the brain develops female. Approximately there are 1.5 million DES Sons and an equal number of DES Daughters. The girls got cancer the boys get gender confusion and dysphoria. I have all the symptoms from a small penis to my testis didn't drop until I was a senior in high school. I also have a deformed heart valve, congestive Heart Failure, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, edema, Stroke (TIA) and diabetes. I felt different from a very early age, and chose to play with the girls until about the fourth grade when I learned to play baseball. At seven I had my first cross dressing experience. I don't know if I asked or Mom just wanted to but I ended up in my sisters costumes. At twelve I would sleep in my sisters leotard and fishnets. At seventeen I would babysit my sisters kids. Put them to sleep. Then slip away to my sisters bedroom to put on her clothes and makeup. It's taken me 64 years to be honest with myself and my therapist In our third meeting together she asked if I want to take hormones. I did not do the asking. I am on the cusp of finally realizing my true self.

The most recent edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5, issued in 2013) no longer classifies transgender identity as a mental disorder.  It is published by the American Psychiatric Association.  So if the professional psychiatric community does not classify us as having a mental illness, who are critics to argue against that?  I think that should be enough grounds to dismiss any claims that we are mentally ill.

There is also a growing body of evidence that suggests that the cause of transgender identity is due to biological differences in the brain.  There's this article from Scientific American published earlier this year that supports that theory.  Scientific American "is an American popular science magazine. Many famous scientists, including Albert Einstein, have contributed articles in the past 170 years. It is the oldest continuously published monthly magazine in the United States."

There's also this fairly recent article written by Leslie P Henderson, just 2 months ago.  The author is a professor of neurobiology at Dartmouth's School of Medicine, a top Ivy League school.  Her PhD is from Stanford.  If one of the top neurobiologists in her field says that there's a biological basis for transgender brains, then that's not something that critics can easily dismiss.

There are of course a plethora of scientific articles and studies out there, but these are just a few.  Sadly, some people who are intent on believing what they think to be true will continue to believe it, despite scientific evidence to the contrary.

Quote from: DawnOday on July 27, 2016, 05:25:35 PM
I have all the symptoms from a small penis to my testis didn't drop until I was a senior in high school. I also have a deformed heart valve, congestive Heart Failure, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, edema, Stroke (TIA) and diabetes.

Most of those health problems you describe are caused by having chronically low sex hormone levels, which seems to be a very common problem amongst genetic males who were exposed to DES. It doesn't seem to matter too much while you're young if you have low sex hormone levels, but as you get older, more and more health problems start to emerge. That's been my experience anyway. I know mainly about the effects of androgen deprivation, which include osteoporosis, cardiovascular disease and diabetes as well as losing all your vitality and zest for life. However, among the people I know who are on estradiol HRT, too low an estradiol level has similar effects. So if you're still experiencing symptoms of metabolic syndrome, cardiovascular disaease and diabetes even after being placed on estradiol HRT, it's a good bet that your doctor has you on too low a dose.

Unfortunately, doctors underdosing their trans patients is a very common problem. Instead of bioidentical estradiol (which they couldn't patent), the pharmaceutical industry has long promoted synthetic estrogens for women's HRT, and the result has been a disaster. The three main ones they promoted (DES, premarin and ethinylestradiol) all turned out to be highly toxic, and it's led to estrogens gaining an undeserved reputation for being dangerous (when actually it's synthetic hormones that are dangerous).

With transgender HRT, what's even worse is that doctors then try to compensate for the inadequate amounts of estradiol they're prescribing by administering antiandrogens, which are also synthetic hormones and have adverse side effects of their own (particularly when used long term). This is why it's a good idea to educate yourself about what constitutes good and bad HRT, and don't assume that your doctor knows what they're doing. Most of them don't!

Anyway, to return to what the OP was asking, I put together this answer last year about the cause of ->-bleeped-<-.

https://www.quora.com/What-causes-a-person-to-be-transgender/answer/Hugh-Easton-1

Basically, it's the result of your hormone levels being disrupted during the later stages of your prenatal development, by which time your genital development has already finished and it's just your brain development that is still ongoing. Not many people appreciate that it's hormones, not the X and Y chromosomes, that determine whether you develop as male or female, and if your hormones are disrupted during the prenatal period, one of the things that can go wrong is that you end up with a brain that's intersexed or even completely the wrong sex for your body.

Quote from: HughE on July 29, 2016, 05:05:12 AM
Most of those health problems you describe are caused by having chronically low sex hormone levels, which seems to be a very common problem amongst genetic males who were exposed to DES. It doesn't seem to matter too much while you're young if you have low sex hormone levels, but as you get older, more and more health problems start to emerge. That's been my experience anyway. I know mainly about the effects of androgen deprivation, which include osteoporosis, cardiovascular disease and diabetes as well as losing all your vitality and zest for life. However, among the people I know who are on estradiol HRT, too low an estradiol level has similar effects. So if you're still experiencing symptoms of metabolic syndrome, cardiovascular disaease and diabetes even after being placed on estradiol HRT, it's a good bet that your doctor has you on too low a dose.

Unfortunately, doctors underdosing their trans patients is a very common problem. Instead of bioidentical estradiol (which they couldn't patent), the pharmaceutical industry has long promoted synthetic estrogens for women's HRT, and the result has been a disaster. The three main ones they promoted (DES, premarin and ethinylestradiol) all turned out to be highly toxic, and it's led to estrogens gaining an undeserved reputation for being dangerous (when actually it's synthetic hormones that are dangerous).

With transgender HRT, what's even worse is that doctors then try to compensate for the inadequate amounts of estradiol they're prescribing by administering antiandrogens, which are also synthetic hormones and have adverse side effects of their own (particularly when used long term). This is why it's a good idea to educate yourself about what constitutes good and bad HRT, and don't assume that your doctor knows what they're doing. Most of them don't!

Anyway, to return to what the OP was asking, I put together this answer last year about the cause of ->-bleeped-<-.

https://www.quora.com/What-causes-a-person-to-be-transgender/answer/Hugh-Easton-1

Basically, it's the result of your hormone levels being disrupted during the later stages of your prenatal development, by which time your genital development has already finished and it's just your brain development that is still ongoing. Not many people appreciate that it's hormones, not the X and Y chromosomes, that determine whether you develop as male or female, and if your hormones are disrupted during the prenatal period, one of the things that can go wrong is that you end up with a brain that's intersexed or even completely the wrong sex for your body.

So how can you receive safe HRT then? Many transgender people need HRT and other medical treatment to ease their dysphoria. I thought HRT could be safe, since so many undergo these kind of treatment without getting sick.

Quote from: Sebby Michelango on July 29, 2016, 05:16:31 AM
So how can you receive safe HRT then? Many transgender people need HRT and other medical treatment to ease their dysphoria. I thought HRT could be safe, since so many undergo these kind of treatment without getting sick.

You get the right HRT instead of the wrong ones and you get you blood levels monitored to make sure nothing bad is happening, and your hormone levels are correct. The wrong HRT is risky, you'll probably be ok, but maybe not and why take that risk when there's better alternatives.

I want to add one thing to what Hugh said.  First though, he is really educated about all of this and knows what he is talking about.  But I always feel a little left out when the DES discussion comes up because while I was DES exposed, with certainty, my personal case always seems to be an anomaly.  Maybe others have the same experience. 

My mother used DES and I have known I was trans since I was a kid.  However, my testosterone was high.  Even as a 55 year old it was in the far upper regions of "normal".  Even my body was generally normal, I think, except that it really didn't reflect what you might expect with such high testosterone.  My body hair was always generally sparse, I had zero hair loss, my face never developed really strong masculine features, and my body, while generally in decent shape, would not develop a heavily muscled look no matter how hard I tried.  The exception  was that  my legs were always really strong and pretty big. 

I'm not entirely certain what my point is LOL, except that DES seems to often have a specific effect of feminizing a prenatal mind while at the same time having a variety of mixed and different effects on the physical body.  It leaves me feeling like a chimera.

It also makes it very difficult to explain any of this to conservatives, or even to most people in general.  They just seem to lack the mental flexibility to grasp concepts that they cannot see.

Quote from: Sebby Michelango on July 29, 2016, 05:16:31 AM
So how can you receive safe HRT then? Many transgender people need HRT and other medical treatment to ease their dysphoria. I thought HRT could be safe, since so many undergo these kind of treatment without getting sick.

The estrogens being administered these days are safer. I don't know about bio-identical but those seem like a further positive step. The biggest single difference as I understand it is that 15 years ago I think the main source was taken from the urine of pregnancy horses (conjugated estrogens, aka preparing).

Older trans women are more often prescribed transdermal, injected estradiol valerate or sublingual, all of which are safer for the liver and complications due to first pass metabolism of oral administration of tablets.

Going by my endocrinologist, sublingual may not even be available in the US and she had never heard of it when I brought it up as a possibility. Hence I'm on injected estradiol and quite happy to find for me that alone suppressed testosterone to the low end of cis female range.

Personally I think this should be standard for most ages, sure first pass effect of oral estradiol has minimal effects on younger people, that isn't, however minimal isn't none and the likelihood that it avoids the need for an AA seems compelling to my mind.

To the OP

There aren't a lot of conservatives in my part of the world and so I simply don't run across the question. Not that I don't encounter occasional ignorance on the subject and often unwarranted assumptions, however nearly all the people I interact with are intelligent and open-minded enough to engage in rational discussion.

I find it ironic that the people who use science to argue against trans people are also the people who trash the science on other issues, like climate change.  As long as it fits their agenda.

I usually start with reminding them that the existence of intersex people disproves their idea that people are either men or women and nothing else.  I had one guy deny that intersex people exist.  There's no hope there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They always say that since intersex are few they don't count.  I never quite could understand that logic since trans are few also.

Quote from: Deborah on July 29, 2016, 09:36:51 AM
They always say that since intersex are few they don't count.  I never quite could understand that logic since trans are few also.

Also gay people are a minority

Quote from: Deborah on July 29, 2016, 09:36:51 AM
They always say that since intersex are few they don't count.  I never quite could understand that logic since trans are few also.

Or they say that being intersex is not a choice, since intersex people are born different physically.  They claim that transgender people like me are giving in to our desires.  That it's a decision we are making to choose to be transgender.

They ignore the fact that we are different mentally.  That our brains are what causes us to be trans.  It is really difficult for people to believe what they cannot see.

I always preface any such discussion with, "In my case..."

Starting with a fertilized egg, cells split until a basic human form is made. Within a few weeks, the XX or XY genes are moving the pre-gonad structures (testes and ovaries, they are the same at this point) to their final locations. Also, as part of the basic form, the genitals are formed. Both male and females share these basic parts even as adults--the penis and clitoris are essentially the same organ, except for size and function. The scrotum in the male is the labia in the female; this is also why men have nipples. *listener often giggles at this point*

So all that happens in the first month, but the brain doesn't really get into detail work until about the fourth month. This is also when the baby's gonads start producing enough hormones to overcome the mothers' hormones, which allows the brain to develop connections so it can use testosterone or estrogen. This event--hormones affecting the baby's brain--is a pretty short time, maybe 2-3 weeks. *listener usually nods about this time, understanding the development process*

Now imagine what would happen to a male baby who, during this time, has something happen which reduces the amount of testosterone...like if the mother was given a medication which, in males, suppresses testicular function. The baby (with a male body) develops a brain which is saturated with estrogen.

The brain becomes hard-wired to "be" female, in spite of male genitalia. *this is when most listeners have an "a-ha!" moment*

Then I answer any specific auestions...I've had pretty good results with this.

Quote from: EmilyMK03 on July 29, 2016, 12:40:24 PM
Or they say that being intersex is not a choice, since intersex people are born different physically.  They claim that transgender people like me are giving in to our desires.  That it's a decision we are making to choose to be transgender.

They ignore the fact that we are different mentally.  That our brains are what causes us to be trans.  It is really difficult for people to believe what they cannot see.

I recently had this discussion with a guy at work.  I even got him to agree that the brains are different.  His response was that they are then abnormal and they need to act normal like everyone else.