Quote from: Deborah on July 29, 2016, 02:18:13 PM
I recently had this discussion with a guy at work.  I even got him to agree that the brains are different.  His response was that they are then abnormal and they need to act normal like everyone else.

How very 1950's of him to say that!

That's one of the reasons people were "warehoused" in asylums back in the day...if you weren't "normal", you were simply sent away so you wouldn't disturb the neighbors, nor could they harm you (you know, because YOU were disturbing THEM).

I was just browsing TED Talks and watched one that I think gives some insights into what's going on.  I found it pretty interesting.
http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind

Quote from: Deborah on July 29, 2016, 02:18:13 PM
I recently had this discussion with a guy at work.  I even got him to agree that the brains are different.  His response was that they are then abnormal and they need to act normal like everyone else.

I've heard the same argument applied to other groups that are a small part of the population, from the deaf, those with various disabilities, to small immigrant populations.

And then there's the definition of 'normal'.  Many of the Native American tribes gave 'two-spirit people' a special place in their culture, as did some Polynesian cultures, among many others. They found these folks and their difference to have a cultural value.  The idea that anyone not 'normal' or meeting a cultural definition of average must hide their differences is an odd twist of Western culture, and it's European theocratic roots.

I kind of enjoy baiting that guy  when I get bored which I know is kind of mean.  But I keep it lighthearted so we remain on good terms. 

He took the whole "normal" thing to another level when he got going on immigration.  He believes it is bad because it dilutes the numbers of the dominant white race.  I tried pointing out to him that he is half Korean himself, as are my children.  But that flew right over his head. 

Another guy told me that Hillary needed to be in jail.  When I pointed out she had been investigated by the FBI and cleared, his response was that the investigator had been coerced with death threats.  When I asked for evidence he said there didn't need to be any evidence because it just was.

Most of these guys are even college educated but the indoctrination in that party is extremely strong and extremely effective.

So the lesson is that's trying to change their minds on any of these issues is a losing proposition.  There is no room for either logic or science.  But arguing with them does provide a pretty high entertainment value as long as it remains friendly and personal attacks are strictly avoided.

I feel like an OSS agent behind enemy lines. LOL.

I don't bother trying to explain or justify myself for being transgender to people like that. It's not worth it as they usually won't listen to reason, science or feel empathy and I'm not going to bang my head against a bigoted wall when I have better things to do with my life.

I'm with Grace on that except that I will mention my being intersex and what was done to me, but other than that I will drop it because even with that knowledge it is doubtful that they will listen to what I said. Hugs
Mariah

I'm think some TS people have feminized brains (mtf) and other masculinised brains (FTM) but studies like this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21467211 make me limit the claim to "some". That's why I don't use the brain argument, and instead go for the fact that it's objectifying to reduce one's identity to genitals or chromosomes. Because people who would call me a man, wouldn't limit themselves to that, but would rather add on a host of preconceptions, stereotypes, and in the case of radical feminists, privileges and antagonism.

Quote from: Ms Grace on July 30, 2016, 04:54:33 PM
I don't bother trying to explain or justify myself for being transgender to people like that. It's not worth it as they usually won't listen to reason, science or feel empathy and I'm not going to bang my head against a bigoted wall when I have better things to do with my life.

This. Every now and then I get sucked into a debate and it just upsets me when they won't listen to reason.
If I was going to use science, I would go with brain scan research.

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Trying to use "Science" is about about as fruitless as trying to point out to the anti Gay marriage crowd that marriage is and has been a legal construct for 300-400 years now defining rights of the spouse. Religion is.... inconsequential. If a "Civil Union" was championed through the hallowed halls of some state state as being totally identical to "marriage" it would stand no chance.

Better yet... A bill to define marriage as a "civil union" with all the rights they have.

I live in "Realville" and have dealt with zealots of one sort or another about all my life. I learned the very valuable lesson that no matter what you say you cannot change their minds... Sorry, you can, to hate you.  Gay, trans, or other. Disagree with them and you instantly become "One of THOSE". A pariah. Even perhaps the exact thing they hate in sheep's clothing

Just the other day a coworker got on his high horse about "Those gays being able to get married" and "Killing religion". I went into my Social Justice Warrior mode and pointed out like I did above the reality of the world we live in. A world where a 30 year life partner can have no right whatsoever, so called civil union or not.

I'm sure when he turned away he had a lot to say he dared not to or his head was smoking. I hope his respect for my technical abilities will hopefully open his eyes some.

I think we need to recognize that not all, or even most conservatives are bigots.

Yes, some are (just like some liberals are bigoted), but most honestly believe they have justifiable morals, and they do listen to reason.

Don't just dismiss someone because of your perception of their narrow-mindedness...sometimes people react emotionally to a new idea, but over time most will come around. Talking with venom just makes the process take longer.

imho

I try not to argue with people who see me as less than. If they have a real/legitimate question that isn't invasive, I answer what I can. Otherwise I simply avoid politics and remain cordial. Honestly, my friends actually fight and argue more for my sake than I do, I typically just walk away.

Besides, logic and facts were invented by us liberals to confuse and make conservatives feel silly. A lot of them have no time for our shenanigans.

     Hugs,
- Katie
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Quote from: Obfuskatie on August 03, 2016, 01:20:13 AM
I try not to argue with people who see me as less than. If they have a real/legitimate question that isn't invasive, I answer what I can. Otherwise I simply avoid politics and remain cordial. Honestly, my friends actually fight and argue more for my sake than I do, I typically just walk away.

Besides, logic and facts were invented by us liberals to confuse and make conservatives feel silly. A lot of them have no time for our shenanigans.

     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've had many arguments with both liberals and conservatives, and in my experience both "sides" (hmm...another binary... I wonder if there's a spectrum with opinions as with gender..?  ) have their particular sacred cows in which logic and facts do not apply.

Not all of "us" here are liberal.

Please, I ask again, do not use broad brush statements against an entire part of society. It is irritating.

I have found that reason and data matters little to many. There position is an emotional one and rooted somewhat in the very nature of social conservatism.

My best logical thing to point out is how united the medical community is on this and how modern healthcare has risen to help us all. (then they love to pull out that one doctor at Johns Hopkins with the contrary opinion)

For the emotional side, i just try for them to get and know me as a person, friend etc. That in and of itself will eventually cover most of the bigotry.

Quote from: HughE on July 29, 2016, 05:05:12 AM
Most of those health problems you describe are caused by having chronically low sex hormone levels, which seems to be a very common problem amongst genetic males who were exposed to DES. It doesn't seem to matter too much while you're young if you have low sex hormone levels, but as you get older, more and more health problems start to emerge. That's been my experience anyway. I know mainly about the effects of androgen deprivation, which include osteoporosis, cardiovascular disease and diabetes as well as losing all your vitality and zest for life. However, among the people I know who are on estradiol HRT, too low an estradiol level has similar effects. So if you're still experiencing symptoms of metabolic syndrome, cardiovascular disaease and diabetes even after being placed on estradiol HRT, it's a good bet that your doctor has you on too low a dose.

Unfortunately, doctors underdosing their trans patients is a very common problem. Instead of bioidentical estradiol (which they couldn't patent), the pharmaceutical industry has long promoted synthetic estrogens for women's HRT, and the result has been a disaster. The three main ones they promoted (DES, premarin and ethinylestradiol) all turned out to be highly toxic, and it's led to estrogens gaining an undeserved reputation for being dangerous (when actually it's synthetic hormones that are dangerous).

With transgender HRT, what's even worse is that doctors then try to compensate for the inadequate amounts of estradiol they're prescribing by administering antiandrogens, which are also synthetic hormones and have adverse side effects of their own (particularly when used long term). This is why it's a good idea to educate yourself about what constitutes good and bad HRT, and don't assume that your doctor knows what they're doing. Most of them don't!

Anyway, to return to what the OP was asking, I put together this answer last year about the cause of ->-bleeped-<-.

https://www.quora.com/What-causes-a-person-to-be-transgender/answer/Hugh-Easton-1

Basically, it's the result of your hormone levels being disrupted during the later stages of your prenatal development, by which time your genital development has already finished and it's just your brain development that is still ongoing. Not many people appreciate that it's hormones, not the X and Y chromosomes, that determine whether you develop as male or female, and if your hormones are disrupted during the prenatal period, one of the things that can go wrong is that you end up with a brain that's intersexed or even completely the wrong sex for your body.

Hugh  Thanks so much. Your information is alway clear concise and most useful. You really bring the situation into clear focus.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on August 03, 2016, 09:56:51 AM
I've had many arguments with both liberals and conservatives, and in my experience both "sides" (hmm...another binary... I wonder if there's a spectrum with opinions as with gender..?  ) have their particular sacred cows in which logic and facts do not apply.

Not all of "us" here are liberal.

Please, I ask again, do not use broad brush statements against an entire part of society. It is irritating.

The question specifically said, what arguments do you use with conservatives, not other conservatives, so... that's why I poked fun at logic and facts. I include myself in the group of liberal people, so I can refer to us (liberals) and some of our (liberal) views without meaning that all trans people are liberal. The question itself was using the broad brush.

In reality, the second thing I said is what I do. I hate arguing with people and rarely do, although I don't mind clarifying if I think someone misunderstood me (as in this case). So, I don't use any arguments with people to explain or defend my trans-ness. They tell me everything I need to know about them when they react however.


     Hugs,
- Katie
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The argument I like to use is this one: You trust science when you are in the ER with a broken leg. Or when you need treatment for a disease. Or when you watch tv, turn your lights on, drive your car, use a computer, pump gas, listen to a piece of recorded music. But somehow you don't trust science in these areas? Do you realize that you are being selective and inconsistent?

And then I explain the scientific method to them and how it works. Point them to the data sets that confirm that that being transgender is not a mental illness. And ask them how they can make a conclusion based on research they have not yet conducted?

It is useful to understand that liberals and conservatives as groups base their sense of right and wrong on different ethical values.  So quite apart from facts, there are some things that will never be agreed on.  See this article with its attached chart.  http://www.ethicsdefined.org/the-problem-with-morality/conservatives-vs-liberals/

For a liberal, treating people fairly and not causing harm are very important.  For a conservative, following authority, group loyalty, and purity, however they define that, are all more important than fairness. 

For controversial issues we may as well be separate species inhabiting different universes because agreement will be nearly impossible.

From  what I've seen Conservatives are more likely to be rooted in a certain type of religious world view that argues we are what God mad us.  "God doesn't make mistakes."   I've seen few Conservative groups welcoming of lgbt.   They don't accept lgbt people and indeed don't even want us to go to the bathroom on the bizarre assumption that we are all rapists or perverts.  There are no gray areas in this world view and it is senseless to argue with these people.   

I usually would have just passed over this, but I don't like being generalized. And since I'm in the super minority, I feel like I need to add my thoughts. As a right leaning libertarian, transgender person whom is also religious, I kind of take offense being lumped in with bigots. With the exception of one of my friends all the rest are either conservatives or right leaning libertarians, some are religious, one is even a pagan. The transgender topic has come up before and none of them care, they don't care what we do to our bodies, they don't care what bathroom we use etc, etc. Some of them even supported gay marriage. I also believe in dinosaurs and evolution, I also believe the big bang theory might be true, but that someone had to make it happen. So please in the future don't lump us all in with bigots.

In my experience - notwithstanding the conservative/religious members of Susan's - the conservative and religious people I know and have met in person do tend to be irrational bigots when it comes to the subject of transgender people. So I don't argue with them. They aren't interested in what doesn't fit their world view, and I'm not going to justify my existence or my experiences to someone whose opinion matters nothing at all to me.