A much used expression in the TG world is 'trapped in the wrong body' but, whilst I've had TG feelings for most of my life (I'm now in my mid 50s), this is one emotion I've never had.

Only recently have I come to the opinion that transition is something I need to consider; however, I've always had strong feelings of wishing that I had been born female, of looking at women in the street and thinking 'that should have been me', of envying women for their beauty, clothing, makeup etc. and being insecure about my looks and, to a degree, masculinity.  That's a pretty long list but my view has always been 'that's how I feel but I'm a guy and that's that'.  Over recent weeks, this view has evolved into 'that's how I feel and maybe I should now take steps to be more fulfilled'.  Effectively what I'm describing is a yearning to be female rather than a feeling that I'm already female (although I have to confess that, even though I'm presenting fully as male at present, doing little things in a feminine way (such as sitting down in the bathroom) do make me feel warm inside).  I would also add that for every 'that should have been me' feeling I get, I see plenty of women who give no inspiration whatsoever.

I can obviously take steps to give insight into whether full transition would make me the woman I yearn to be (through trials clothing, makeup and extended periods 'en femme') or would be more likely to leave me feeling more unfulfilled than I currently do.  I also fully acknowledge that these are questions which need to be discussed with a gender therapist before taking any irreversable decisions.  However, I would love to hear from other ladies about how you felt in you pre-transition period and, in particular from those of you who transitioned later in life (I am in my mid 50s) after presenting in your birth gender for so long.

Amanda x

I know of two types of dysphoria but if you feel there is another, let me know. One form of dysphoria is body dysphoria where you are uncomfortable with parts of your body. The other is social dysphoria where life just doesn't feel right and you desire the social role of the opposite gender. I had the second one and for me, moving in to the feminine role before surgery removed much of the discomfort I had felt.

It is possible to have both forms of dysphoria at the same time but I suspect one would dominate the other.

Dena, that's a very interesting insight, in particular where you say '...you desire the social role of the opposite gender' and I think that this encapsulates how I feel at the moment as it reconciles the motivation for change without the 'wrong body' feeling.

I do have a degree of body dysmorphia - I have always hated the way I look, I hate my body hair and increasingly wish that there was more upstairs and less down below - but the idea of social dysmorphia is the one that resonates here.

As you said when I joined, I'm going to need a gender therapist to resolve this one but, in the meantime, thank you again for your help and support.

Amanda

"Trapped in the wrong body" is a media catch-phrase.  It is right up there with the stories of kids who knew they were trans at age 3.  It sells advertising, but it is not the whole of reality.

I think your situation (very similar to mine) is much more common than most folks realize.  I never felt that I was female; I just wanted to be.  I think it has to do with how deeply your feelings have been buried.  In hindsight, I can see that wanting to be female was the feminine part of me saying "Hey, I'm in here!"  But that is not how I experienced it at the time. 

And with the feelings being buried that deeply, it took a long time to dig them out.  You can see on these forums that it is not uncommon to become aware of them or figure them out only in one's 40s, 50s or even 60s (like me).

Kathy, thank you for your thoughts.  I agree with you about the media catch phrase issue (second only to 'she was born a man' - I thought that boys became men at around age 18, not at birth!) but I've seen this terminology used quite a lot in these forums too.

I also think you're right about the situation being a lot more common than people realise but this then gives rise to a new question - what drives this desire and why is it able, in some cases, to be latent for so long before manifesting itself?  In my case, it would be easy to say that I enjoy the company of girls & women and like to be close them in a non-sexual way (although had little contact during my teens due to being sent to an all boys school with little female contact), feeling inadequate in the looks department (with an attendant fascination with how girls & women can change their appearance with makeup) and a desire to have what I define as the perfect woman in my life.  I would also say that, whilst these feelings have existed since puberty, they were very much on the back burner during my time working in an office with a high female ratio and it's only since I changed careers that the feelings have come to the fore. 

However, I don't think that's the whole story; I do remember that on the odd occasion I had dreams when asleep as a child, I was more often than not a girl in those dreams and perhaps there is a deep seated psychological reason why all of a sudden, I had a compulsion in my mid-teens to try on my mother's clothes. 

Strangely, though, I now feel very content with these feelings whereas in years gone by I would have preferred to have been 'cured'.

Amanda

Amanda, I think that most scientists believe that gender is wired into the brain.  They can actually see the gender-related structures in the brain on MRI exams, in their male or female forms.  Of course, there can also be in-between forms as well.  Transgender people simply have a brain gender that does not match their genitals.

The gender of the genitals and the gender of the brain develop at different times in pregnancy, under the influence of hormones.  If the hormonal environment changes between the respective development times, you can get a transgender baby.

There are many of us who have been affected by a synthetic hormone called DES that was prescribed to pregnant women from the 1940s to the 1970s to prevent miscarriage.  It is associated with producing MTF trans children.   I am 99.9% certain that I am one of those people.  You are of a similar age, and could be in that group too.

Of course, other hormones, some naturally occurring, could be implicated too.

Kathy, your message has struck right to the core and I think you may have found the answer to my situation.

I was the second of four pregnancies; the other three were all miscarried after a couple of months.  My mother used to speak about how she was prescribed a drug early in pregnancy but it made her feel sick and so she stopped taking it.  Being born in 1960, we always presumed it was thalidomide for morning sickness (my mother could never remember) but it's equally possible that it was DES given that she'd already suffered one miscarriage.

Sadly, my parents are now both dead so I have no way of finding out but, if you are correct, it would answer an awful lot of questions.

Thank you so much,

Amanda x

OK, I'm 62.  I had DES exposure like KathyLauren, with assorted 'tells' growing up. It was probably in my early 30s that I became consciously aware of my gender identity, when I was interviewing a woman in the early stages of transition for a job position.  At one point I thought "She's so brave to be doing this.  I wish I could be that brave." Wait... WHAT?  Oh, there were plenty of hints before, but I just thought I was a horrible pervy person and buried them deep.

(The DES issue is almost a distraction.  I am what I am.  Knowing how I got here is nice, but it doesn't change what I have to do.)

With a lot of help, I've come to understand that I feel my best, that I feel fully human and alive, when I can bring my gender presentation and gender role into alignment with my identity.  That is, when I dress appropriately, meeting the social norms for female appearance, hair, and whatnot, and actively behave in a more feminine manner, including taking on the social roles we have set for women (oh, horribly anti-feminist sounding, I know, but it satisfies that primitive in the back of my consciousness that experienced the 1950s).

Yes, this means that I do such goofy things as put on my Gloria Vanderbilt jeans, a light top, old wig, and proceed to clean the kitchen, vacuum the rugs, and do the laundry.  (This all happens while the wife and daughter are out of the house.  They like the clean, don't like seeing MoPa... ). If I could greet them at the door in that Donna Reed dress and pearls I probably would, just for fun.  It wouldn't go over well...

The point is that yes, I'm pretty sure of my gender identity at this point.  Lining up the other bits, presentation and role, make me comfortable.  HRT got rid of the internal conflicts, "testosterone poisoning", and is helping with presentation.  The role is realitively easy, as 'enlightened post-feminist male' is close enough to allow me to do 'traditional female' for non-social role aspects.  (I still can't get away with 'doing lunch with the girls' other than with my daughter, and I have to present male for that, even with the quiet giggling...)

Quote from: KathyLauren on August 12, 2016, 06:45:38 AM
"Trapped in the wrong body" is a media catch-phrase.  It is right up there with the stories of kids who knew they were trans at age 3.  It sells advertising, but it is not the whole of reality.

I think your situation (very similar to mine) is much more common than most folks realize.  I never felt that I was female; I just wanted to be.  I think it has to do with how deeply your feelings have been buried.  In hindsight, I can see that wanting to be female was the feminine part of me saying "Hey, I'm in here!"  But that is not how I experienced it at the time. 

And with the feelings being buried that deeply, it took a long time to dig them out.  You can see on these forums that it is not uncommon to become aware of them or figure them out only in one's 40s, 50s or even 60s (like me).

That is exactly me!
I couldn't have said it better and it wasn't until my spouse and I moved a couple states away from family and old set in stone lifestyles that I could finally say "I'm free"!
My lovely spouse has been amazingly helpful with her understanding, friendship and fantastic fashion sense and beauty tips.

Quote from: aaajjj55 on August 12, 2016, 09:51:57 AM
Kathy, your message has struck right to the core and I think you may have found the answer to my situation.

I was the second of four pregnancies; the other three were all miscarried after a couple of months.  My mother used to speak about how she was prescribed a drug early in pregnancy but it made her feel sick and so she stopped taking it.  Being born in 1960, we always presumed it was thalidomide for morning sickness (my mother could never remember) but it's equally possible that it was DES given that she'd already suffered one miscarriage.

Sadly, my parents are now both dead so I have no way of finding out but, if you are correct, it would answer an awful lot of questions.

Thank you so much,

Amanda x

If it was thalidomide you would know as it caused deformed limbs. The link link will give you more information. This wasn't a problem in the United State because the drug wasn't approved here so only a few cases happened from imported drugs.

Dena, I'm obviously aware of the side effects of thalidomide as it affected several hundred children here (UK) and several thousand in mainland Europe.  However the story my mother always told was that she had been prescribed something for morning sickness (but couldn't remember what it was), it made her feel even worse so she stopped taking it straight away which would be consistent with my not having any limb damage if, indeed, it was thalidomide.

However, having thought more about this overnight, I think the most likely scenario is that, in addition to whatever she was prescribed for morning sickness, she was also prescribed DES in view of her prior miscarriage.  I was born in 1960 so, by the time they were thinking about having another child, probably in 1961/2, the full horror of thalidomide was becoming apparent.  Therefore, despite the risk of miscarriage, she probably refused any further prescriptions during pregnancy.  Sadly, her third and fourth pregnancies also ended in miscarriage.

I've often wondered how I came to go full term (in fact three weeks over full term) when her other three pregnancies ended in failure but this theory, combined with what we now know about DES and my ongoing gender confusion gives what I think is a very plausible explanation of my situation.

Once again, thank you to you and everyone who has joined this discussion for helping me understand things.

Amanda x

Quote from: Dena on August 12, 2016, 02:54:09 PM
If it was thalidomide you would know as it caused deformed limbs. The link link will give you more information. This wasn't a problem in the United State because the drug wasn't approved here so only a few cases happened from imported drugs.

Dena, from what I understand thalidomide and DES are different drugs (DES).

Sorry, ladies, we seem to have got a bit confused here.  Thalidomide isn't relevant to this thread, I merely mentioned it as my mother had always talked about taking it while she was pregnant with me but dropping it quickly as it made her feel even more ill.  I was wondering whether what she was prescribed was, in fact, DES due to her miscarriage history but I now think it was more likely she was prescribed DES and either thalidomide or an alternative anti morning sickness drug which she quickly ceased taking.

Very interested to hear views on DES and its effects, though,

Amanda

My mom's DES was prescribed in the form of prescription prenatal vitamins, after a series of miscarriages.  These were prescribed again several years later after another series of miscarriages, for one of my brothers.  (He needed surgery shortly after birth to correct 'some issues', undefined.)

The jar sat in the medicine cabinet for many years afterward.  I still remember it.

Quote from: Lucie on August 13, 2016, 11:43:12 AM
Dena, from what I understand thalidomide and DES are different drugs (DES).

Thalidomide is a tranquilizer that is seeing very restricted use today. DES is a synthetic estrogen. Both drugs can effect fetus development but in different ways.

Quote from: Dena on August 13, 2016, 03:47:16 PM
Thalidomide is a tranquilizer that is seeing very restricted use today. DES is a synthetic estrogen. Both drugs can effect fetus development but in different ways.

Sorry, I had misunderstood your previous post.

Trapped in the wrong body is a useful expression and I've used it myself before.  However, I do know what I was born as.  It's kind of obvious by looking in the mirror.   So you could say I had the feeling of wanting to be female physically.

On the other hand, I have had the overwhelming feeling, or knowledge, that my mind wasn't male as others were since I was around 11.  I remember occasions in high school specifically thinking I needed to watch boys closely to figure out how to act so that I could fit in because it seemed obvious to me that I wasn't thinking about things the same as they were.  Over time I became a very good mimic and lost myself behind an avatar.

For me, a mind body dichotomy has always been jarring.  So I guess it could be equally true to say I always wished I was female from a physical sense or that I was already one from a mental sense.

What I don't know is why we all come to terms with this in different ways.  It would seem that the cause of dysphoria is common to all.  So do different people have it to different degrees?  Or do we just mentally process the dichotomy differently in order to live in and make sense of an insane situation?