We have all probably heard that taking cross-sex hormones is something like the "gold standard" or final test to determine if someone is transgender.  There is little doubt that most transgender people feel better on the hormone of the gender they identify as.

But what happens if a cis-gender person, let's say a cis-male takes estrogen?  Would he not like it as well as testosterone?  Would he begin to feel odd?  Or let's say a cis-woman takes testosterone.  Other than the hairy sided effects, would she not like it?  Could there be some bodies don't care which hormone is dominate?

I am asking these questions because like a number of transgender people, I continue to wonder if I really am trans or if it might be some sort of fantasy.  I began HRT more than 4 months ago and within a couple of weeks it eliminated all signs of dysphoria.  After feeling pretty certain that I had been "cured," a few weeks ago I switched back to testosterone for week because I remember there were times on T when I felt pretty darn good, except for the female desires and dysphoria.  After being on T for a week and not really feeling any better, well, actually not as good, I switched back to estrogen and felt a big relief within 12 hours.  I have continued since.

Is it possible for a cis-gender person to feel better on a particular hormone even if it was not the hormone your body grew up with?

Thanks.

How to touch this one within the TOS of the board and not be medical advice...

Couple thoughts;  T overpowers everything.   If you take E while T is live and kickin, it won't do much.

So the matrix is really,  Do I have T and T receptors functioning; if so X, if not Y.

Thus a cis-male, taking E, won't get nothing much interesting.   A cis-male on a T-blocker will likely lose substantial interest and function, and may become tired, etc.   If on the T-blocker, and you add E; you get E functional, with emotional balancing and female secondaries; but probably not a lot of libido.

A cis-female, taking E, simply increase risks of cancer and whatnot; and a T-blocker won't do much of anything for most.   Add T, and it'll overpower the E, and you're off to the races with male secondaries.

Generally what happens.

Finding the right amount of the right piece of the puzzle is what you have docs and labs and therapists and psychs on your team for; each person will be different, what's ok for me is most likely not ok for you, etc....

I forgot to add, that for MTF, its the "gold standard"; because HRT includes that anti-androgen.   For almost everyone it will flat out delete any erotic impetus for wanting to truly go MTF.

If they weren't substantially dangerous, it'd probably being standard of care for first visit, "so you think you might be transgender?  bend over, let me give you this; there, now lets talk.... "   Just have a little air-gun injector on the desk.  Labeled, "fix me".  lol.

Thank you Onna.  One little piece of info that I didn't include was that I had an orchie a few years ago so I never needed to include an anti-androgen.  So in my original question I should have included the scenario that a cis-male would be given E along with an AA.  Would he like that combination as well as just being on the T his body naturally produced?

Quote from: rwOnnaDesuKa on August 17, 2016, 02:19:10 PM
I forgot to add, that for MTF, its the "gold standard"; because HRT includes that anti-androgen.   For almost everyone it will flat out delete any erotic impetus for wanting to truly go MTF.

Yeah, and that's the best part of all.  I still wonder though if that's really a definitive test.  Could someone knock their T down 800 points and convince themselves they feel good about it if they weren't trans?  It sounds like a silly question but I think that second guessing is part of this package.

Quote from: Phlox1 on August 17, 2016, 02:31:26 PM
Thank you Onna.  One little piece of info that I didn't include was that I had an orchie a few years ago so I never needed to include an anti-androgen.  So in my original question I should have included the scenario that a cis-male would be given E along with an AA.  Would he like that combination as well as just being on the T his body naturally produced?

On that, I think you're way past what anyone can know, and into individual response territory.   There's only the tiniest amount of journal lit for what we do know, and meds aren't even label tested for this use in the first place.

At times, estrogen is prescribed to CIS-men as treatment for prostate cancer.  If it can be tolerated, it is quite effective.  Problem is that many cannot tolerate it.  Then there is the side effects, which cause additional problems.

I have heard of only one man who tolerated estrogen treatment.  And he had a real hard time.....  I have heard of several who did not tolerate it and made the decision to gamble with their lives rather than take it or take it any longer than a week or two. 

I have been asked how I tolerate estrogen.  I don't tolerate it.  I really feel better on it...and I  like the side effects.

Jen

Quote from: JLT1 on August 17, 2016, 02:53:51 PMI have been asked how I tolerate estrogen.  I don't tolerate it.  I really feel better on it...and I  like the side effects.

I don't know enough about cancer treatments; but I do agree with the above.   My little stickers and me are best friends now; the whole world feels like a much better place, when they are in place.

QuoteI really feel better on it...and I  like the side effects.

This is the way I feel as well.  I feel better and like the side effects.  But does that in itself prove that a person is transgender?

Some of this was early stuff when transgender females were treated by giving them high dose testosterone to cure us. It drove us nuts as you can imagine. The same as aversion therapy and electro-shock therapy. It didn't and doesn't work. The cross sex hormone is required to allow our balance of either E or T to be at the level our brain requires to be happy.

In the early prostate cancer work T receptor blockade and increasing E was a very short idea, it again didn't work as a cismale brain on E isn't a happy brain.

In cisfemales T can be increased in the presence of E and lead to increase muscular strength, hirsutism and some increase in aggression. The mental effects seem less severe in the short term than for cismales on E. But then cisfemales need T at low levels and produce T at low levels anyway.

Remember all of these studies have been done to "cure" TG people and homosexual people. Many of our brothers and sisters have been in the past subject to appalling biochemical torture in the name of fringe medicine.

I would bet there are a number of us oldies who also went through aversion therapy as well, that is real fun for a child I can assure you.

It is far more clearly understood now and NO educated or informed medical team would ever conduct such appalling treatment.

Cindy, I know first hand what you mean about the effects of high dose testosterone treatment.  My T levels began dropping naturally (partly due to age) around 7 - 10 years ago and my doctor eventually prescribed testosterone.  It didn't take long for me to realize that the T made my gender issues much worse.  My desire to be female was much stronger while I was on increased T.  Estrogen really feels better than T in my system.

Someday I may just have to admit that I really am trans.

My gender therapist cautioned me that not all medical professionals consider HRT as a "diagnostic tool" for MtF transsexuals.  But I have heard the argument before.  Personally, I believe it to be mostly true.

I personally know a cis male friend.  He was feeling fatigued, tired, and mostly just "off" for the first time in his life.  (he is in his mid-30s)  He couldn't sleep well or think straight.  His doctor finally diagnosed him with low testosterone.  After he started getting medication to bring his testosterone levels back up, he started feeling back to normal again.

I have also heard that MtF cross-dressers who go on HRT will not take to it well.  I've heard some accounts of those who tried it, then decided it wasn't for them when, after taking HRT, they lost their desire to be female.  They stopped wanting to cross-dress.  They started viewing other women differently.  And they didn't like how the HRT was changing their mindset.  So they stopped.

I feel that HRT can be helpful in determining if someone is trans.  But it's NOT a standalone test - it's not like a blood test for Zika virus, for example.  There are many other factors that need to be considered.

I wouldn't say the HRT itself makes me feel better, more the effects of it. That and the knowledge that T is done with me. I'd imagine a cis guy would be pretty freaked out by the effects of it not to mention the uncontrollable crying. They probably wouldn't last long.

One of the sad things about cross sex hormones, at least in Australia, is that last year the PBS (the government agency that subsidises drugs here so we can afford them) removed the subsidy for males requiring T during 'male menopause' based on clinical evidence that most men received little benefit from restoring T levels in later life.  However, women receive subsidised HRT for menopause during mid life. I found that rather an anomaly as I would have thought that cismales would have benefited.

An even bigger disaster was that the PBS forgot or never knew about Transmen needing T and there was a mad panic to make sure they could get a supply.

A bit of reverse sexism or something going on here maybe?

I can see an interesting karma when the Australian officials that took away the subsidies get a little older and start feeling the effects of low T. They will wonder who passed the decision.

Quote from: Dena on August 18, 2016, 12:34:34 AM
I can see an interesting karma when the Australian officials that took away the subsidies get a little older and start feeling the effects of low T. They will wonder who passed the decision.

Yes opposition may stiffen or something along those lines.

They'll probably be clamouring for some kind of poll.......

Quote from: Cindy on August 18, 2016, 01:17:52 AM
Yes opposition may stiffen or something along those lines.

More likely something might go limp