I'm wondering if there's really a change in orientation, or just a realization of true self?

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Lucie on August 26, 2016, 11:40:38 AM
But they don't show any evidence about causation between sexual orientation change and HRT, do they ?

No, they admit in one place that the evidence is pretty much non-existent. Actually they found that no single "variable of transition" was statistically significant in predicting change in orientation.

Basically, I posted the link because it was the only paper that I could find that addressed change in sexual orientation and I hoped that by providing some rigorous data it would stimulate conversation. Posts here are subject to selection bias, so we can't really draw any firm conclusions from them.

Hopefully there's someone here whose Google-fu is better than mine and can find a paper that will shed more light on the issue.

As for me I'd rather agree with Devlyn Marie that transitioning just reveals our true inclinations which supersede the old pre-transition ones. The latter were false inclinations because they were induced by the role that had been assigned to us at birth and that we have had to play until we did the step towards our true self.

Quote from: kelly_aus on August 26, 2016, 09:24:37 AM
If it doesn't change the sexual preference of a cisgendered homosexual person, why do you think trans people would be any different?

Can you clarify what you are referring to here?

Also, there's quite a bit of overlap between "doesn't change sexual orientation (most of the time)" and "might change sexual orientation (but rarely does)".

Please forgive me if I seem contrary here, I'm just a die-hard "Perceiver" — I have a habit of questioning hard and fast distinctions.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on August 26, 2016, 11:50:56 PM
Can you clarify what you are referring to here?

Also, there's quite a bit of overlap between "doesn't change sexual orientation (most of the time)" and "might change sexual orientation (but rarely does)".

Please forgive me if I seem contrary here, I'm just a die-hard "Perceiver" — I have a habit of questioning hard and fast distinctions.

In the past, hormones were used in attempt to "cure" homosexuality. It didn't work - all it seems to have achieved was to cause a kind of dysphoria.

Also, there are those that transition without hormones who also report a change in sexual preference. Between these 2 facts and some research into neurobiology, there is a strong suggestion that hormones do not change sexual preference.

Okay, I thought that might be what you were talking about. I'm not sure it that sort of coercive "therapy" quite reflects HRT used by trans people.

The argument that people shift their orientation during transition even without HRT is more powerful to me -- and also of course people experience changes in sexual orientation to some extent without either transition or HRT.

Thank you for the response.

Quote from: kelly_aus on August 27, 2016, 12:09:12 AM
In the past, hormones were used in attempt to "cure" homosexuality. It didn't work - all it seems to have achieved was to cause a kind of dysphoria.

Also, there are those that transition without hormones who also report a change in sexual preference. Between these 2 facts and some research into neurobiology, there is a strong suggestion that hormones do not change sexual preference.

Could you elaborate on the neurobiology?

Quote from: JenSCDC on August 27, 2016, 05:07:23 AM
Could you elaborate on the neurobiology?

This is one of those times, I'm going to suggest you do your own research.. Look for articles on the effects of hormones on the brain..

I think there is Definitely a change.

Prior I was bi at least sexually but not "attracted" to men and no desire to kiss at ALL. I thought I would transition from an emotionally straight man to an emotionally gay woman. Wow was I wrong.

Subtle enough I didn't even notice it at first the first thing I noticed was a slow change in porn tastes and types. I've always been highly attracted to women but now it's more of a comparison view and I feel more disconnected emotionally from them since it seems we crave the same thing now.

Then I started seeing a man after 2 years on HRT... First time making out and such (never would have before transition) my attraction has changed completely and it just seems normal to me.

From what I hear the chemical rewiring of the brain is a permanent part of transition but to be honest it will just seem normal as it happens so accept whoever you are

Someone needs to do more extensive research into this from a transgender population standpoint. My feeling is that sexual preference is both innate in some instances and learned/adapted in others. I realize that the latter presents a big problem at times, because it sets up the idea that it could be unlearned or changed.

One of the reasons that Iran is transgender friendly and has some of the highest rates of medical transition treatment in the world, is that some religious body there decided that it was a preferable to transition someone that expresses that they are gay, rather than actually accept gay people.. Not so good of an idea in many of those cases I'm sure. In parts of Asia gender variance and being gay are treated as the same thing. They assume that every man that crossdresses or every Mtf transgender woman likes men and there are stories of doctors being very confused when they learn that is not the case.

The reason i bring these up, is these are ways that the "change" idea is dangerous, but so is the assumption that everyone is immovably whatever their DNA programed them to be.

Was i programed in the womb to like men and women? Maybe, but i can definitely see the sliding dial of attraction to men and women, move up and down in my lifetime and it has moved since i have been on hormones. I have seen too much anecdotal evidence in others to not believe the same is true elsewhere.

I had one experience when I was 16 that told me I was attracted to men and my previous porn tastes confirm that.  I was not attracted in a male body though.  For that and other reasons I  got married and was also attracted to my wife.  So maybe I was bi.  Or maybe I was pretending?  I'm not sure.

What HRT did to me was simply make pretending during sex unenjoyable.  But it didn't really change my orientation.