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Coming out and Dealing with Science vs. Culture + Religious beliefs

Started by Effervascence, August 28, 2016, 03:58:59 AM

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Effervascence

Hi,

I'm seeking help to come out to my dad. (He's my family basically)

I'm 18, and want to come to out to family (maybe not so soon) but in the next coming years for sure. My father (due to cultural influences, where we are from, religious beliefs) is anti-LGBT so I know it would be even worse if he knew about my trans identity. Do you have any tips on coming out to fathers? Luckily, my dad is a science/biology teacher so he would easily understand the scientific/psychological aspect of transsexuality if explained to him, at least I am hoping. Does focusing more on the "scientific" side (if there even is one) more helpful? or is being more personal/emotional the best? I'm asking because it seems as though scientists are more convinced by factual based evidence/examples rather than "emotional" things.

I'd also like your opinion on how (maybe in your life) the notions of culture, religion, and science "clash". How have people you know dealt with your trans identity if it opposes scientific facts they believe but also cultural/religious beliefs? Which are people more likely to pick?

Thanks for answering :)
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Elis

I think a both scientific and emotional response is best. Unfortunately people tend not to believe you unless there's prove. Some people still think a gay person has to go out with someone of the same gender before they they're 'really' gay. With my dad he grow up in the 50s and 60s so isn't used to LGBT stuff. I shared links to trans studies which I'm not sure he's looked at (he's interested in science) but me sending him a text detailing how upset it makes me to get misgendered finally got him to stop doing it. I told him how I felt in my coming out letter but I think sometimes an emotional response needs to be repeated more so than a scientific one.

With my brother; also interested in science and has a general biology degree. He agreed with the concept of male and female brains but still misgenders me. I don't really feel comfortable sharing emotional stuff with him so I just let it go.

The rest of my family were suprisingly ok with it; even correcting themselves when they got my name wrong at my recent family reunion. I guess it's because we're not close; but it was suprising because they're the conservative 'normal' types.

I'm not from a religious family btw.
They/them pronouns preferred.



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AnxietyDisord3r

Humans are driven more by emotion than reason, so you'd have to get at to the emotion of why he's anti-LGBT and go after that.

People can get persuaded by science if they're open to it. If he's willing to hear you out about fetal development and such, go for it. The science has changed a lot since when he went to school. Talking about intersex might help because there's been a lot of talk about it and transgender is like a special case. But if he has a really strong emotional reason for hating on LGBT people then he will be impervious to facts.
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Kylo

My mother's a (non religious) biological scientist and still reacted to my coming out as if I was a victim of current popular culture, despite having a lifelong track record of not being, and of being visibly awkward and unwilling to adopt my assigned gender role since early childhood.

The odd thing was that I told her at least 3 years before Caitlyn Jenner hit the headlines and everyone suddenly became hyper-aware of transsexuals. And another odd thing was that she herself had often talked about how she was very male in personality herself, and had sometimes described herself as a "man without a dick". So naturally I assumed she wouldn't have had a huge problem with my predicament.

Without the excuse of the track record and the awkwardness to fall back on, she decided I was simply attention seeking and seemed unable to view the situation from any perspective but her own. That's what it ultimately came down to - if she didn't have to have hormones and operations to fix a clash of body and personality, then I shouldn't, and if I felt like I'd somehow had a bad life because of the condition or because of her alcoholism when I was a kid, she was always there to tell me my bad experiences were paltry in comparison to hers. I discovered that the woman I called my mother didn't know me at all. She had a very strange opinion of me, seemed to think that everything I'd achieved in life had been made possible by other people and not by my own desires or determination or hard work... and she seemed quite convinced I'd had "enough chances" in life already and didn't deserve any more. When I was a child and tried to tell her something was wrong she waved it away with the sarcastic statement of "what could you possibly be depressed about?"

So I think it really comes down to a sort of jealousy or hate or disappointment in me, she doesn't like that I "have a genuine problem" that others in the family have acknowledged and sympathized with, she doesn't like the attention and support that might get me, maybe I'm a gender traitor to her? I really don't know. Science is irrelevant here - she has focused on showing just how much I'm a selfish and unentitled person in her view and she keeps going back to these ideas, no matter how much information about the condition is at her disposal or how logical and rational she has to be in her day job. She has some definite beef with me, and I have some with her because of her behavior in the past and her apparent inability to accept or care that I have problems to deal with, and she's happy to ignore the facts and the research and ignore my existence for the most part.

For example when I did speak to her one occasion about how some aspects of her violent alcoholism in my childhood amounted to "abuse" as far as I'm concerned, she immediately told me she was abused as a child and that what I experienced didn't count as "true" abuse as far as she was concerned. Sure, in some ways that may be right - I don't think she directly intended to be abusive but the fact was she was in her drunk behavior and she simply can't see it. Anyone else's experience always comes secondary to her own, or she just won't admit she ruined other people's lives while wallowing in her own misery. It's a very selfish state of affairs. Goes to show that someone can be a brilliant scientist and rationalist and still be full of it as far as transition goes because they just don't like you. They can literally flip that rational switch whenever they want and let their controlling/emotional mindset take over.

So I think how they are going to take it depends not only on their beliefs and acquaintance with science or rational thinking, but also on how they look at you as a person. With parents, there can be a possibility of them feeling superior to their child, and to look down on the child and their problems because of that.

Most of my family are not religious, or ex-religious, that still doesn't make them easy to deal with because they have issues with me not being the perfect kid. Those who are non-religious but 'spiritual' have no problem at all and are actively supportive. I don't think there are any I know of who readily engage with science but also organized religion to the same degree.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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Gertrude

Unfortunately beliefs are stronger than logic and reasoning. It's difficult for people to change their beliefs because cognitive dissonance is painful and so is being wrong, which may be the ultimate problem.


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EzraDC

I'm not out to my family so I have no experience with parents specifically, but I have some general coming out advice that was very helpful when I came out to my boyfriend. Before I came out I would keep bringing up trans topics to introduce him to the idea. We'd watch TV shows and documentaries with and about trans people to help him understand what trans was, normalise the subject, and empathise with trans people.

I would show him articles and studies about trans people, especially studies showing how we're not choosing this.

After he'd gotten use to the idea, it was so much easier and safer to come out to him. I think maybe you could do the same thing with your dad. Try seeing how he reacts to both scientific and emotional 'evidence' to guage his reaction. That way you know which way will appeal to him when you eventually come out.

A lot of religion focuses on love and family. From what I've heard from friends, even when a family is extremely religious and struggles with their child's trans identity, they still love their kid - and loving is a big part of their religion. They might react badly at first, but a lot of the time when you give them time too accept it and understand that thins is something you need to do to be happy, they eventually come around.
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SadieBlake

OP, I wouldn't even talk about it in scientific terms. The fact that your dad is nominally grounded in the sciences and is still homophobic doesn't bear well for him allowing knowledge to enter into his emotional responses.

As soon as you make it about facts, it's all too easy to simply muster whatever facts you believe supports your view and any possibility of communication is the first casualty. A perfect example is people with a trivial understanding of evolution using that to argue issues of social policy or economics. Of course population genetics is a hugely complicated science that people assume they understand because they have a bachelor's including some biology.

I'd say just tell your dad what this means to you, what you experience and don't try to convince him. When I told my SO who's only ever known me as trans that I need to start transition (HRT) I didn't so much come out about it as said I have to do this because the pain of not is too much.

He may be better able to understand if he can see that you've explored / exhausted all options but ultimately coming out in my mind is getting yourself straight with people, what they do with the knowledge is something you don't have control of.

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on August 28, 2016, 09:45:47 AM
.... if I felt like I'd somehow had a bad life because of the condition or because of her alcoholism when I was a kid, she was always there to tell me my bad experiences were paltry in comparison to hers. I discovered that the woman I called my mother didn't know me at all. She had a very strange opinion of me, seemed to think that everything I'd achieved in life had been made possible by other people and not by my own desires or determination or hard work.

You're describing someone who sounds fairly fundamentally short on empathy. I can relate - my mother is given to taking credit for my accomplishments and offering blame for the failures - to say nothing of negative views of things I consider important. Most recently I was lectured on the importance of securing patents (I'm an inventor on a dozen different patents by a woman with exactly squat knowledge of science or technology.
🌈👭 lesbian, troublemaker ;-) 🌈🏳️‍🌈
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Kylo

Quote from: SadieBlake on August 28, 2016, 02:25:47 PM
You're describing someone who sounds fairly fundamentally short on empathy. I can relate - my mother is given to taking credit for my accomplishments and offering blame for the failures - to say nothing of negative views of things I consider important.

You're correct. She flat out admitted she doesn't empathize with anyone at one point, and blamed autism although she's never been diagnosed with it. Said she feels nothing for people and went on to say I was probably the same (I'm not). At that point I knew it was pretty much a lost cause to expect any sort of motherly relationship from her, which was what I felt was chronically missing and was trying to fix, I guess.

"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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Jacqueline

Interrupting the topic to welcome  Effervascence to the site.

You have started off with tough question. Hope you get some more great responses.

I also want to share some links with you. They are mostly welcome information and the rules that govern the site. If you have not had a chance to look through them, please take a moment:

Things that you should read





Once again, welcome to Susan's. Look around, ask questions and join in.

With warmth,

Joanna
1st Therapy: February 2015
First Endo visit & HRT StartJanuary 29, 2016
Jacqueline from Joanna July 18, 2017
Full Time June 1, 2018





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Gertrude

Quote from: EzraDC on August 28, 2016, 11:35:19 AM
I'm not out to my family so I have no experience with parents specifically, but I have some general coming out advice that was very helpful when I came out to my boyfriend. Before I came out I would keep bringing up trans topics to introduce him to the idea. We'd watch TV shows and documentaries with and about trans people to help him understand what trans was, normalise the subject, and empathise with trans people.

I would show him articles and studies about trans people, especially studies showing how we're not choosing this.

After he'd gotten use to the idea, it was so much easier and safer to come out to him. I think maybe you could do the same thing with your dad. Try seeing how he reacts to both scientific and emotional 'evidence' to guage his reaction. That way you know which way will appeal to him when you eventually come out.

A lot of religion focuses on love and family. From what I've heard from friends, even when a family is extremely religious and struggles with their child's trans identity, they still love their kid - and loving is a big part of their religion. They might react badly at first, but a lot of the time when you give them time too accept it and understand that thins is something you need to do to be happy, they eventually come around.
Not in the US. Some run to the Old Testament for some fire and brimstone.


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