Quote from: Rhonda Lynn on August 20, 2016, 01:17:39 AM
Thank you for your honest opinion. It is really helpful. Your observations on specifics are also helpful. I'm expecting surgeons to recommend different procedures and I'll rely on that heavily, but it's good to have other opinions on what does and does not stand out.

Since studying the feminine scale M5 - GN - F5 scale and http://www.virtualffs.co.uk/My_Facial_Feminisation_Thesis_Part_8_How_Feminine_is_Feminine_Enough.html that Ruby posted in her thread, I think that I'm somewhere in the gender neutral plus or minus a point. Before I studied it I was thinking "I look like a boy without my make-up."

However, oddly enough, even if I'm already GN, my resolve to go for some changes is actually getting stronger. What it's doing is making me feel more optimistic that I might expect a better end result. If before I was thinking that I was going to go from having a masculine bone structure to getting to neutral (which, of course I would have done), now I'm hoping to go from neutral to decidedly feminine ~F2 or so. That is exciting for me to think about because that would feel so much more like a match to how think of myself. I'm not an androgynous person, I'm a girl and I want my face to unambiguously reflect that.

Perhaps it's like, I'm running a marathon and I thought I was 10 miles from the goal, but it's only 5 miles away! Now I want to run faster, not to slow down!

You know, I think people see what they expect to see. If you tell them that you got a facelift, they'll probably think, "Wow, she looks good! That is is the best facelift I have ever seen in my entire life!" I mean, I didn't know about FFS until a few years ago, but we're not the general public. People can't guess at an explanation if they have little knowledge or experience of it.

You might be asked who your surgeon is because they will be ready for a facelift of their own!

OTOH, I do sympathize and understand that the last thing that you want is one more deception that always leads to another. So, there is a trade-off there and I don't want to dismiss that.

No love is possible without self-love. Whatever you decide, I hope that you will choose what makes you the most happy.

Good luck on your consultation. If you decide to share your experience I hope that you'll let me know so that I can follow it. However, if you decide to keep it private, I completely understand.

Hugs,
Rhonda

I'm going to see what the experts at Facial Team say, but I'm quite stubborn, and so am not easily swayed from my intentions.
I know that there is literally no one in my life who would condone my decision to have FFS, that also weighs on my mind, and will act as a brake against getting too much 'done'.

I had never seen that M5-GN-F5 scale before, but after passing completely on my very first outing outside amongst strangers 'en-femme' and pre-everything, I realised that it's so much more than just my facial features at work that helps with passing. I also realised that I must look more feminine when 'dolled up' than I ever thought, and that others were seeing something  (female) that I was not. Hence I began at that point to actually think that transition might be possible. I think I'm GN on that scale, but how does one really know when we are often our harshest critics? I definitely worry about how I look without makeup, and one day a good few years ago, I went to work without any on at all, and got a fair few comments from people who thought I looked ill or very tired, so definitely something looked 'wrong' to them. So ever since then I've become one of those women who won't go out without at least some 'basic' makeup on.

Maybe you're right in that folks won't suspect I'm trans due to any 'facial work' because it's so far off the general radar. Instead, just that I'm trying to improve my looks, or battle age, or having a mid-life crisis, or maybe they might think I'm just vain.
Hopefully no one will ask who my surgeon was though! 

I hope that if I really do go ahead with it, it brings me some peace, and maybe enough satisfaction for me to live with other imperfections that I can't or don't want to tackle.
I'll post about my experience after I've been to Marbella, after all, it's just a consultation. I just hope it doesn't cause a rift between me and my partner.

Quote from: Rhonda Lynn on August 20, 2016, 09:06:01 PM
Have received quotes back from PAI (Bangkok) and Dr. Rossi (Buenos Aires).

Quote from PAI came back very rapidly, but it did not have a lot of detail.

With Dr. Rossi's office, a few emails have gone back and forth with Amanda - who is a gem. The communication is really quite incredible. I very much like how they asked me what I'm trying to accomplish, etc. When I received the quote and description back from Dr. Rossi's office, my input was very much incorporated into their proposal. For example, I mentioned that I wanted to "... avoid the look of Beverly Hills women that have had too much plastic surgery..." yes, I say things like that..   

They used my phrase back at me and said that Dr. Rossi strives for a natural look. So I am getting a very good feeling that I was really listened to. That I am being treated as a person, not just a body. This is feeling like a really good fit for me.

I also liked the detail in the proposal. Every procedure was described along with an explanation as to why each procedure was recommended. As expected, there were a set of main recommendations and a few options. I have not heard back from Dr. Cardenas yet, but at this point, to be honest, I think I have decided. I am feeling really good about Dr. Rossi.

I don't want to unfairly say anything negative about PAI because they are surely top surgeons, I will only say why I didn't choose them. For one, the cost was very close to the same. Both PAI and Dr. Rossi are what I consider affordable. All told I will be just over $20k after travel and even including some $$ for hair transplants.

The big difference for me was communication. Being in opposite time zones makes Thailand difficult. Neither me nor they made a big effort to bridge the communication gap. Perhaps if I had been able to converse with the PAI surgeons it would have been equal.

Dr. Rossi proposes to do the following

•   Forehead reconstruction (type III)
•   Hairline correction
•   Brow lift
•   Secondary rhinoplasty (see below)
•   Upper lip lift (to make it vertically shorter and get more exposition of the upper teeth) (*)
•   Chin reduction in height and width
•   Jaw feminization (tapering from chin to rear corners)

Optional, which I'm doing is fat injection to the lips and
blepharoplasty if needed when he looks at me

They explained in great detail that they need to move my glabella (the forehead area between the eyebrows) about 8-10 mm back! Which is a lot. I'm still in a bit of shock about that. I keep saying to myself that they are going to take my head apart and put it back together.

They said that my nose looks very feminine, but after they move my forehead back, they will have to adjust the nose or else the nose will appear too long.

The most complex option is the facelift/necklift which they did recommend. They explained in very great detail that I should do it, but that I could do it at the time of FFS or a few months later. Since they are removing a lot of bone, it is likely that I am going to end up with some loose skin, so a facelift would be good. It would be cheaper to do it at the same time as the FFS. However, if I wait a few months and do it on a second trip after I've healed, I should expect a better result.

More effort but a better result is what I've decided on. Also, I'm thinking that if there is anything else that needs to be done, I could take care of it in 6-12 months. It just seems unwise to pull my older skin over swollen features before they've healed. I could end up with additional lines and wrinkles.

Took this selfie this morning before we went out for breakfast.



-Rhonda

There is definitely an issue of looking like a celeb who's had too much plastic surgery, there are definite cues on the face that can give away the fact that someone has had 'work done'. I want to try and avoid that look as much as possible. I also don't want to lose any facial expression ability, and that is a definite risk and a big concern of mine.

Can I speak candidly?
That is a lot of surgery you are considering, especially if you go for the options and the second set of procedures. For someone who passes very well already, I'm surprised you want to have that much done. I'm sure you will look great when it's all healed and complete, but you will certainly look quite different. If that's what you are expecting and are after, then that's fine, but you certainly don't need it all to pass. But I'm sure you already know that.

It's my central forehead area (glabella) that concerns me too, and is something I want Facial Team to look at. But I am quite happy with my nose, so if they say I'll need a rhinoplasty as well, for similar reasons to you, then I'll most likely just drop the idea of forehead modifications because that would be too much for me to handle. Maybe it's possible to have the eyebrow lift and blepharoplasty without any aggressive bone reconstruction? Then I'd have to have a conventional hair transplant like I did before at DHI, i.e. without the scalp strip removal.
I am also happy with my chin and jawline as they are. It's very much like my mother's (a family trait). Maybe the surgeon might suggest making those areas less prominent, and I suppose they do have a slight masculine edge to them, but hrt and fat distribution have helped enough in that area that I don't feel I need surgery there, rightly or wrongly.
My dad always says that when I look at him, it's like my mom is looking at him.
I am lucky in that I look younger than my age, so that helps too.

One thing I am surprised about is the price, $20k sounds very good to me.
I will definitely compare this to any quotes I get from Facial Team, it's really good to have such information to hand when going for a consultation, thanks for posting it.

I'm glad your sister is supportive, good luck when telling your mother, I won't tell mine until afterwards.
I hope it all works out for you. 

FFS is scheduled for October 12 - will be in Buenos Aires for two weeks after surgery. I'm a bit busy the next couple of days, but will post more soon!

-Rhonda

Congrats Rhonda!!! How exciting!!!!

Look forward to updates  all the best in your evolution

Rhonda, you went from trying to decide on a surgeon... to having a surgery date set with Dr. Rossi... all in just 1 week!    Glad things are moving along well for you!

Quote from: EmilyMK03 on August 24, 2016, 07:58:16 PM
Rhonda, you went from trying to decide on a surgeon... to having a surgery date set with Dr. Rossi... all in just 1 week!    Glad things are moving along well for you!

Hi Emily,

Yes, the process with Dr. Rossi's team has been great so far. Also, having women on Susan's that have had such good outcomes with him helped a lot. 

I was looking through my inbox and there must be two dozen emails that have been exchanged between Dr. Rossi's office and myself by now.

I was thinking about it this morning and imagined, "what if I didn't do the FFS this year, how would I look back on that decision 10 years from now?" I knew exactly, it would be like starting HRT or having GRS. Looking back on that, in so many ways I wish that I could have somehow changed my body at a younger age. Every year of putting off a positive change is a year of wasted potential.

Of course I'm worried about complications - they can happen - but that won't change by postponing. 

Hugs,
Rhonda

Quote from: V on August 22, 2016, 06:51:22 AM
I'm going to see what the experts at Facial Team say, but I'm quite stubborn, and so am not easily swayed from my intentions.
I know that there is literally no one in my life who would condone my decision to have FFS, that also weighs on my mind, and will act as a brake against getting too much 'done'.

I had never seen that M5-GN-F5 scale before, but after passing completely on my very first outing outside amongst strangers 'en-femme' and pre-everything, I realised that it's so much more than just my facial features at work that helps with passing. I also realised that I must look more feminine when 'dolled up' than I ever thought, and that others were seeing something  (female) that I was not. Hence I began at that point to actually think that transition might be possible. I think I'm GN on that scale, but how does one really know when we are often our harshest critics? I definitely worry about how I look without makeup, and one day a good few years ago, I went to work without any on at all, and got a fair few comments from people who thought I looked ill or very tired, so definitely something looked 'wrong' to them. So ever since then I've become one of those women who won't go out without at least some 'basic' makeup on.

Maybe you're right in that folks won't suspect I'm trans due to any 'facial work' because it's so far off the general radar. Instead, just that I'm trying to improve my looks, or battle age, or having a mid-life crisis, or maybe they might think I'm just vain.
Hopefully no one will ask who my surgeon was though! 

I hope that if I really do go ahead with it, it brings me some peace, and maybe enough satisfaction for me to live with other imperfections that I can't or don't want to tackle.
I'll post about my experience after I've been to Marbella, after all, it's just a consultation. I just hope it doesn't cause a rift between me and my partner.

There is definitely an issue of looking like a celeb who's had too much plastic surgery, there are definite cues on the face that can give away the fact that someone has had 'work done'. I want to try and avoid that look as much as possible. I also don't want to lose any facial expression ability, and that is a definite risk and a big concern of mine.

Can I speak candidly?
That is a lot of surgery you are considering, especially if you go for the options and the second set of procedures. For someone who passes very well already, I'm surprised you want to have that much done. I'm sure you will look great when it's all healed and complete, but you will certainly look quite different. If that's what you are expecting and are after, then that's fine, but you certainly don't need it all to pass. But I'm sure you already know that.

Thank you for speaking candidly. I did think about this.

Unfortunately, I can't share the whole 8-page recommendation from Dr. Rossi's team. It's just too much detail and too specific to me.

I'm grasping at a way to explain it. There are two reasons that I have chosen to do all of the work listed. One, going half-way in one area would leave a less satisfactory result. The cost and recovery time would not be significantly affected overall, so it makes little sense. Next, when one area is changed another area has to change to restore balance.

Dr. Rossi was quite clear anything less than a type III reconstruction would not give the best result. Then, with such a major change to my browbone and glabella, my nose has to change to match.

I only want to do a forehead reconstruction one time in my life. It makes the most sense to aim for the best possible result. Yes, it will be a big change for people, but that is something that they will get used to in time. Just like my transition 26 years ago.

Another way to look at it is this, the expert that I trust has given me very specific advice about what to do for the best result. Dr. Rossi says 8-10 mm. I can listen to that or say, "No, let's change it less than that so that people are less likely to make a big deal out of it." I just know that if I do that, I'll be sewing the seeds for later regret. The people that really matter to me know that I'm doing this and are supportive. I'm not going to decide this based on a wider circle of people. It's just too important.

Quote from: V on August 22, 2016, 06:51:22 AM

It's my central forehead area (glabella) that concerns me too, and is something I want Facial Team to look at. But I am quite happy with my nose, so if they say I'll need a rhinoplasty as well, for similar reasons to you, then I'll most likely just drop the idea of forehead modifications because that would be too much for me to handle. Maybe it's possible to have the eyebrow lift and blepharoplasty without any aggressive bone reconstruction? Then I'd have to have a conventional hair transplant like I did before at DHI, i.e. without the scalp strip removal.
I am also happy with my chin and jawline as they are. It's very much like my mother's (a family trait). Maybe the surgeon might suggest making those areas less prominent, and I suppose they do have a slight masculine edge to them, but hrt and fat distribution have helped enough in that area that I don't feel I need surgery there, rightly or wrongly.
My dad always says that when I look at him, it's like my mom is looking at him.
I am lucky in that I look younger than my age, so that helps too.

One thing I am surprised about is the price, $20k sounds very good to me.
I will definitely compare this to any quotes I get from Facial Team, it's really good to have such information to hand when going for a consultation, thanks for posting it.

I'm glad your sister is supportive, good luck when telling your mother, I won't tell mine until afterwards.
I hope it all works out for you. 

Actually, the FFS will be less than $20k. It's probably best to do your own consultation though. Airline tickets, accommodations and hair transplants will get it to that amount.

It's best to do your own consultation, but I think it's helpful for people to get a ballpark idea.

I know that everyone's circumstances are different. I hope that by explaining my own thoughts, perhaps it is helpful for you. I know that I learn by reading what others have posted that have gone through the decision and physical process.

Hugs,
Rhonda

Quote from: Rhonda Lynn on August 24, 2016, 11:26:52 PM
Thank you for speaking candidly. I did think about this.

Unfortunately, I can't share the whole 8-page recommendation from Dr. Rossi's team. It's just too much detail and too specific to me.

I'm grasping at a way to explain it. There are two reasons that I have chosen to do all of the work listed. One, going half-way in one area would leave a less satisfactory result. The cost and recovery time would not be significantly affected overall, so it makes little sense. Next, when one area is changed another area has to change to restore balance.

Dr. Rossi was quite clear anything less than a type III reconstruction would not give the best result. Then, with such a major change to my browbone and glabella, my nose has to change to match.

I only want to do a forehead reconstruction one time in my life. It makes the most sense to aim for the best possible result. Yes, it will be a big change for people, but that is something that they will get used to in time. Just like my transition 26 years ago.

Another way to look at it is this, the expert that I trust has given me very specific advice about what to do for the best result. Dr. Rossi says 8-10 mm. I can listen to that or say, "No, let's change it less than that so that people are less likely to make a big deal out of it." I just know that if I do that, I'll be sewing the seeds for later regret. The people that really matter to me know that I'm doing this and are supportive. I'm not going to decide this based on a wider circle of people. It's just too important.

Actually, the FFS will be less than $20k. It's probably best to do your own consultation though. Airline tickets, accommodations and hair transplants will get it to that amount.

It's best to do your own consultation, but I think it's helpful for people to get a ballpark idea.

I know that everyone's circumstances are different. I hope that by explaining my own thoughts, perhaps it is helpful for you. I know that I learn by reading what others have posted that have gone through the decision and physical process.

Hugs,
Rhonda

I understand that you have to put a lot of weight on what the surgeon says, they are the experts after all.
I also understand your reasoning about restoring balance to all areas of your face, and of not wanting to do half a job, and forever living with regret that you didn't go "all the way".
You do seem to have made peace with your decision, and that is great. I'm not trying to undermine your decisions, just trying to be as honest and objective as I can.
I'm not brave enough to post photos of myself on this site, if I was, I'd certainly ask your opinion on my face. Part of me wants to do that, but I'm paranoid about outing myself.

As you say, you need to do it for yourself, and not be too concerned about others.
Maybe if I had some support from someone in my life, rather than the barrage of resistance I am getting, I might be more open to a wider facial change. Our lives are different though.
Reading your thoughts are helpful to me.

Anyway, I wish you well 

I'd say go for it girl, I had a little, hardly noticeable work done, but just the little things that really boost confidence

Quote from: EmilyMK03 on August 24, 2016, 07:58:16 PM
Rhonda, you went from trying to decide on a surgeon... to having a surgery date set with Dr. Rossi... all in just 1 week!    Glad things are moving along well for you!

Hi Emily,

Thanks. It still seems like there is something that I need to do each day for it. The last loose string now is the apartment and then in a couple of weeks I'll do a Skype discussion with Dr Rossi to discuss details about the procedures.

Hugs,
Rhonda

My very young for her age 87 year old mother and I went out for coffee today and I mentioned to her that I was going to have some cosmetic surgery done. She asked me what I was going to have done and I explained mainly I was going to have my brow and jaw reduced. I then told her that it was highly-specialized, for people with my type of background. She gave me a blank stare for I don't know how long and said "OOOHHHH, I get you! You know Rhonda, I don't even think about that anymore."

That was pretty affirming really. After 26 years of making new memories as mother-daughter, what came before seems like a faded memory, at least for me - perhaps for her too. I'm sure that it took my mom a long time to change her perception of me, and surely it was gradual.

Our conversation simply went back to other things. The health of her 70-something "boyfriend" etc., etc.

Thinking about this has really put a smile on my face all day. To my mom, maybe I am just her daughter now. That means a lot.

I think that this thread has reached it's logical conclusion.  The surgeon and date are set. Family knows. It's now just a matter of preparing and waiting.

Closer to the surgery date (October 12) I'll start a new thread with Dr Rossi and FFS in the title in order to make it easier for people to find it in search. I'll try to document the process with photos for you all.

-Rhonda

congratz! Wish you the best of luck.

Quote from: ~Carmen on August 25, 2016, 10:07:20 AM
I'd say go for it girl, I had a little, hardly noticeable work done, but just the little things that really boost confidence

Hi Carmen, Thank you. I bet that even a small change can make a big difference. It's all about feeling confident!

Hugs,
Rhonda

May be i can help...
My name is Rahul and i am in the transitioning period now. I Had my breast augmentation with Dr Narendra kaushik and i want to get Facial Feminization too . I have contacted him for that and he showed me some of his work and i was quite impressed.

Moderator Edit (photos removed but links on our links page)

Thats pretty impressive, Rahul - it loosk like your skin also changed in texture and brightness.

I also am in the similar situation as in the original post - I transitiones in the 1990ies and had GRS in 2000. FFS did not really exist by then, except Dr O was starting up in that era. But it was exotic. After staying away from trans issues for 15 years, I took a new look and found that FFS is now widely available and also voice surgery is getting good. I did the latter now and am very impressed. I consider FFS, but also I am GN on that scale - having neutral and some feminine some masculine features, but not at all clear cut. The surgeons always seem to suggest that the changes are not going to be big but that if I want to change something, I need to basically do the standard procedures of forehead, hairline, nose, chin and jaw correction. It bugs me that I would have to go through all of these procedures for just a little change, also because they all have risks. All my friends except one tell me I am crazy to even think about this. FacialTeam suggested I do not need FFS either - so I am heavily undecided. I though, I would do this now as I am 41 years - rather do it now than do it in 10 years and then be angry about myself for not having the upsides of it all when I was in my 40ies - but then again I do not know if I should go for it at all. Its such a hard hard decision.

I am also not known as trans, basically being stealth, so I cannot post pictures here, sadly, as it is too public for me. I did send them to some people in private messages though and bascially so far, most say the same as I already know - the changes will be positive, but subtle and its a hard decision if its worth it. Sigh.

Quote from: anjaq on September 09, 2016, 01:44:35 PM
[...]
I also am in the similar situation as in the original post - I transitiones in the 1990ies and had GRS in 2000. FFS did not really exist by then, except Dr O was starting up in that era. But it was exotic.

[....]
I am also not known as trans, basically being stealth, so I cannot post pictures here, sadly, as it is too public for me. I did send them to some people in private messages though and bascially so far, most say the same as I already know - the changes will be positive, but subtle and its a hard decision if its worth it. Sigh.

We have very similar stories! I understand about not posting pictures in public. I'll send a PM in case you want to discuss it that way.

A lot of people have trouble understanding. I get a lot of "You look just fine!" I really have had to think hard and find the answers deep within myself for why I want to do this. I'm not advising anyone to follow my steps, I only feel that by sharing my own thoughts, that maybe it will help others find clarity. I know that in reading other people's posts about what they've gone through, it has helped me a great deal.

I'm not sure if I posted this already, but I feel a bit of anxiety when I get my hair done (after it's shampooed) or if my hair is super sweaty and I'm not wearing make-up, etc. I feel more self-conscious in those situations. I'm much more confident when I'm perfectly coiffed, but it's hard to be that way all the time.

Quote from: RahulIndia on September 07, 2016, 06:51:42 AM
May be i can help...
My name is Rahul and i am in the transitioning period now. I Had my breast augmentation with Dr Narendra kaushik and i want to get Facial Feminization too . I have contacted him for that and he showed me some of his work and i was quite impressed.

Hi Rahul, you posted this on the FFS thread I began<photos removed>. Is this genuine? Can you supply some more details of the work you had? The two pics look splendid: but won't really convince anyone on here without a bit more backup if possible please?

Moderator Edit: Photos were removed as they were part of a link to a commercial site. The links are documented in our links section.

Quote from: Rhonda Lynn on September 09, 2016, 04:34:47 PM
I'm not sure if I posted this already, but I feel a bit of anxiety when I get my hair done (after it's shampooed) or if my hair is super sweaty and I'm not wearing make-up, etc. I feel more self-conscious in those situations. I'm much more confident when I'm perfectly coiffed, but it's hard to be that way all the time.

Yes - I obsess a bit with hair, too. I do not use a lot of makeup, so that is not the biggie, but I need a feminine hairstyle or I feel odd. I try not to look into the mirror after showering and also in some bad lights (elevators! I hate elevators with that dreaded ceiling light) I do not want to look. Others seem not to notice it because its still me, but I hate those. But thats the thing - doing 8 hours of extensive surgery with risks of nerve loss and other complications just to get rid of some odd, maybe subjective and unrealistic perception in some situations? Seems to be a bit crazy to me myself

I don't know how to put it because i dunno if we are allowed to give negative reviews on our past surgeons but I guess we have the moral responsibility to warn others. I know transitioning is really an expensive process so sometimes we are tempted to go to the one with the best package price. I just want to warn girls if posibble avoid the famous ffs surgeon in Mexico for various reasons. Cheap yeah but quality of work<... it felt to me> that attitude and standard of care are sub par mediocre at best.



And yes my comment is based on personal experience. I had to redo everything.


Moderators edit to removing bashing and clarify.