Hi! I have been post-op for many years and have been living stealth. I am a  very petite Asian and Caucasian mix so I never had problems passing look wise - though I still had some minor FFS tweaking. But my voice has always been my achilles heel, I do pass most of the time even on the phone but I have to put sooooooooo muchhhhhhh effort and when my guards are off my voice falls back to a very male voice which contrasts my petite dainty sweet look. For some reason voice wise I usually pass with most races but not with the Asians; Asians have a keen radar on reading/ clocking voices. Years ago the VFS were not as reliable as it is today. My lawyer who helped me with my legal transition is also a post op who had the laser vfs. She stopped me from doing any vfs before. Her voice was left weak and sounded like a very old lady even after many years. But I believe the surgery has improved tremendously. Hence, I am back on my quest for a more passable voice.

I tried contacting Yeson and Dr. Haben's office. I got a response from Haben's office next day; after weeks of waiting for a response I got one from Yeson- Jessie. I researched and decided to go for Yeson. Emailed back and forth and Jessie gave me the go signal to buy plane tickets, wire money etc. After having bought plane tickets Jessie emailed me with the requirements for surgery. Being a medical professional I am familiar with labs and I am aware I have had high liver enzymes sgpt/ sgot in the recent past. Asian doctors for some reasons are always into that liver enzyme thing unlike in the west. So I emailed Jessie, no response for over a week. I was getting frustrated so I emailed again several times and finally got a response. She stated that they cannot do the surgery if they check it in South Korea and it is still elevated. i haven't had new labs yet but I decided to abandon Yeson for good due to my frustration. Luckily my travel agent was able to cancel our plane ticket reservations; dunno how! I just told Jessie to disclose the surgery requirements or ask your clients to get labs in their country of orgin before asking them to buy plane tickets.

I am not saying that Yeson's surgery results are bad. Actually I have heard so many good results online hence I decided to go with them. But being a healthcare provider myself, I am just not  comfortable trying to contact and contact my doctor/ clinic and get no response for prolonged periods of time; my pet peeve. What more if something bad happens post-op!!! An acquaintance of mine had surgery with Yeson though no harm was done to her voice, her voice did not change at all. When I told her my experience with Yeson all she said was I told you so. I have phobia of going overseas and having post op complications after; been there done that.

So now I will try to schedule surgery with Dr. Haben, wish me luck! For Haben girls:
- what labs do Haben require pre-op?
- days required to stay in NY?
- if asked to stay longer, which hotel/ motel can you recommend?
- is there an airport shuttle available?
Thanks in advance!

I actually didn't have any labs run for 10 year before my visit but I have never had health issues. I have had labs run after that and as I suspected, they were very good. If you know you have issues, check with them in advance. They use a regular hospital for the surgery so they should be able to deal with most abnormal conditions if they are aware of them in advance.

Mondays is fly day, Tuesday is pre op exam, Wednesday is surgery and Thursday is exam/trip home. If you live out of the country, you will need to stay a full 7 days before you may leave.

I was only there for the four days and I spent one night in the hospital for recovery. The Marriott is a full service hotel. They have a shuttle service which I didn't use but could have. To see Dr Haben you will need a cab but go to the front desk and they will have one for you before you finish asking. The cab cost about $70 but he waited for me so I added a $30 tip.

Food is available in the hotel and I thought it was very good but there is fast food within walking distance. I was only able to eat 3 meals before surgery so used the Marriott for food.

As for follow up, Dr Haben was a little slow providing my 3 month review but he was on a trip at the time and as soon as he returned, he plowed through them. After that, we exchanged a few emails and he was always very responsive with replies.

Thanks Dena! I am based in Los angeles.... No, I don't have any health conditions... Elevated liver enzymes are pretty common due to diet , hormones, meds etc. ... Just so happen i brought it up being a RN.
-  Dena, when you stayed in the hospital were you still checked in the Marriot or did you have to check out and checked in again after? Were you by yourself?
- did you bring your valuables with you in the hospital or left it in the hotel?
- how far is Dr. Haben's office/ hospital to Marriot? How far is Marriot to the airport?
-$70 taxi- one way?

I checked out of the hotel the morning of the surgery as I didn't have anybody with me and needed to spend the last night in the hospital. If you have somebody with you, you can leave the hospital after the surgery but somebody needs to keep an eye on you for the first 24 hours after surgery. If not your traveling companion, then the hospital. When I left the hospital, first stop was Dr Haben, then the airport.

I had my valuables with me but don't bring many. Security in the hospital gives you a small bag to put them in and they hold them till after surgery. I was able to fit my digital SLR 35mm camera, my wallet and my cell phone in the bag but that was about it. The rest of the luggage was delivered to the room to wait for you. With forethought I didn't bring my laptop and did all my web surfing on my cell phone.

Dr Haben is about a mile east of the airport. The hospital and Marriott are about 20 miles north of the airport. The hospital will pick you up from the hotel the morning of the surgery and will deliver you to Dr Haben from the hospital the day after the surgery.

$70 both ways and he waited while I had my appointment. I considered it a real bargain. You may not.

As for air fare, you might look at South West as they fly into both location. If you would prefer another airline check them out as well as South West is a cattle hauler and I barely fit in the seats. I am 6'2" and the seats were spaced for somebody several inches shorter than me.

Thank you soooooo much Dena! .....Called, scheduled, paid the deposit - no hassle, no drama no waiting for weeks for email response etc.... 

I think you will like Dr Haben. He enjoys his work and will take all the time you need to answer your questions. My surgery was a bit complicated so I had additional questions both before and after surgery and all the questions were answered. In addition, I think for me it was about 3 weeks from laying my cash down until surgery. Yes, I hit a lucky window but it worked out well.

After hearing more voice samples I am leaning more on getting the CTA ... My voice is really not bad when I am really trying to sound fem but I always slip up.... if I am going to do it might as well do it all in... I am worried about the several premature breaking/ disintegration of the sutures which is making me think of doing CTA.... HouseHippo's samples are really stellar!

- I read Haben's pros and cons.... Are there any other big cons why I shouldnt do CTA?
- how much longer shloud I stay in NY if I am doing CTA?
- will the CTA fee include d additional hotel stay?
- will Haben remove stitches post op day 7?

Failure of the sutures is rare if you follow the after surgery care instruction. If you wish to improve the odds, I suggest you do what I did and practice not coughing or clearing your throat a week or two before surgery. It really help as I discovered that chocolate was something I needed to avoid as it caused me to clear my throat. A few mistakes will happen and they won't harm the surgery but you should avoid mistakes as much as possible.

I didn't do CTA because of the range limitations it places on you voice however had Dr Haben recommended it, I would have done it. Depending on your original voice, it may not be needed. If your starting voice is in the 140hz range or higher, VFS will give you a sufficient boost that you will not be able to hit the lower register. CTA should only be considered if you had a relatively low male voice and need a larger pitch shift. Also note that if you elect to have CTA, that will be combined with VFS. It would be very rare that Dr Haben would give CTA without VFS.

If you have CTA, your stay will be the same. You will have additional post surgical care instruction as you may not shower until the stitches are removed but your stay will be no longer.

The CTA charge is only for the additional time in surgery as no additional hotel time is required.

If you hang around the additional 7 days, Dr Haben will remove the stitches free of charge and most likely take another look at the VFS before you go home. If you don't stay, he will give you instructions on how the stitches are to be removed and your doctor can remove them. He uses a special stitch where you get a hold of one end and they all come out and it's something most doctors are not aware of.

Also note that you may still require some of your trained voice to obtain the proper resonance as both surgeries only change the pitch. Dr Haben's site clearly states that a surgical voice is only 50% and therapy is the other 50% of the final voice.

I'm now two months post-op VFS from Dr. Haben and I can say I agree with what Dena said about CTAs affecting your vocal range. Prior to VFS, I had a little over two octave singing range. Post VFS, it's now about one and a half octaves. The lowest I can go right now is about 155Hz (D#3) where pre-VFS I could go down to A2.

When I had my first VFS surgery with Dr. Haben, I had the triple (glotto, CTA, trache shave). The glotto failed so it was like I basically had the CTA alone. With just the CTA, I had effectively no change in my voice (this may be incorrect, as my friends say my voice seemed slightly higher, perhaps one semitone, which is negligible). So what this all means is don't just get the CTA without the glottoplasty!

Wow thank you so much girls for the input.... When I said i was going to get the CTA i mean the combo with the glottoplasty instead of just glotto..... I don't have adam's apple.  But Geekgirl's answer made me rethink it.... Actually your experience- Geekgirl and Kwala's experience made me think of doing the combo CTA and glotto instead of just glotto thinking the glotto by itself isn't that realible. But now that I know that ur failed surgery included CTA too I guess it can fail either way.... Wow thank you soooo much! I guess the glottoplasty by itself can help me.....I don't really sing so that's a non issue to me.

How do I attach share voice recordings here?

You go to one of the voice sites and upload the voice sample. It will give you link which you bring back  here and include in your post. Some sites delete the sample after a given period of time and others don't. One of these days, I plan on accumulating my voice sample and making an archive that can be retrieved from drop box as all of my samples time deleted.

Hi,
This is my regular voice not trying too hard to be feminine but with the consciousness that I have to sound female... Constructive criticisms/ comments are welcome on how to better improve my voice. English is not my first language. Thanks

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uli0pff1n57x7j5/Voicemail1.m4a?dl=0

The voice is quite good. The inflection is sufficiently feminine and the pitch while toward the lower end of the feminine range is sufficiently high to be clearly out of the masculine range. The voice sounds like an adult woman, possibly in her 30's. This sample should easily pass the telephone test.

Oh, really. Thanks! That's good to hear. I never really had feedbacks before since I don't have Trans friends in real life that can give me feedbacks. It can be sad and isolating living stealth sometimes. Though I have a bunch of cis girlfriends some knows but such things doesn't really interests them to really spend time and interest talking much about it.

I find that to be somewhat of a problem on the site as well. I had extensive voice therapy from Hollywoods best, the one that Hollywood sent their actors to when they had issues. He taught me how to listen for problems in other people voices, trans or CIS as well as what the solution was to the problem. My sister was having voice problems and from the sound of it I knew she needed somebody to take a look see. Sure enough she had been abusing her voice and developed nodules on the cords. Fortunately, surgery isn't required to correct it.

Quote from: Miss Lux on September 18, 2016, 11:50:27 PM
So now I will try to schedule surgery with Dr. Haben, wish me luck! For Haben girls:
- what labs do Haben require pre-op?
- days required to stay in NY?
- if asked to stay longer, which hotel/ motel can you recommend?
- is there an airport shuttle available?
Thanks in advance!

For both pre-op visits I met with Dr. Haben, no labs were required. It may be because I signed something that gave them access to my medical records.

Technically, you should be there at a mininum 3 days (or 3 days and 2 nights) because the first day is the pre-op day where Dr. Haben examines your throat and makes you read The Rainbow Passage and singing an E sound without placing your voice. You'll get some numbing spray to make the procedure of him inserting a scope down your throat easier. I've always hated the taste of the spray. Take some time to poke around Rochester and find a place to eat, but don't stuff yourself! I had a slice of pizza from Pizza Stop. Normally when I visit a city or town, I try to find a great place to eat, but I didn't want to stuff myself before surgery day.

The second day (or morning rather) is surgery day so the package deal that Dr. Haben's office sells gives you limo service transport to and from the hospital from The Marriott Airport. I've always found the limo drivers to be friendly people. Please note that you have a limited time to recuperate. I'm a slow healer and feel nauseous from anesthesia, so I needed to stay in the hospital until 4pm or so (my surgery was the first one in the morning so I had to be there at 6am). You will probably not feel like eating after your surgery, but it's a good idea to keep sipping cold water. I managed to eat some kind of chicken soup from somewhere. Whoever is accompanying you to your surgery should be prepared to assist you with acquiring food and walking with you so you don't end up falling.

The third day (actually just the morning) you visit Dr. Haben again for a post-op visit where he again scopes your throat (more of the yucky numbing spray) and gets you to silently think about singing an E sound. He show you a video of what your vocal cords currently look like. He will also hand you a photo of your throat from the surgery procedure (this is probably a new thing since I didn't get one the first time I had my surgery with him). You may have feelings of "Oh, ->-bleeped-<-! What have I done?!!" but you'll need to keep calm and rest yourself for the next week or so and learn how to keep silent and not to use your voice to communicate. For me, I had to not speak for a month which was very difficult since I'm a blabbermouth. This surgery was more challenging for me than my GRS, my rhinoplasty, and my breast aug all put together. The cool thing is communicating by hand gestures and writing or pointing to signs is not as bad as you think. I was able to use a text-to-speech app and make calls on the phone that way and people actually communicated with me over the phone without thinking twice about it!

The down side? If you need to use your voice at work, it will be especially difficult to do so. One of my jobs is as a yoga teacher. I've not taught a single class since my surgery. I've been offered numerous opportunities to teach but I had to decline due to my voice healing (I had one of the most powerful voices in the yoga field at one time... now I sound like a quiet Winnie the Pooh, but that will surely change as I heal).

If you need to stay longer and can afford it, I'd say get more nights at the Marriott. It's actually a really nice hotel that surpassed all of my expectations. I *think* the Marriott van can take you to the airport, probably for free.

I listened to your voice sample and think it's quite good. I can't believe you'd have any trouble passing over the phone with that voice, but if you say that you have to put tremendous effort into it to get it to sound that way, then I can relate. Many of us started with not so good voices and hope that we could attain an acceptable sounding voice. It would be nice to just wake up in the morning and not even think about placing the voice.

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences.... Mwaaah mwaaaah!!!

Hi Miss Lux,

I am Asian like you, although I am 100% Korean and was born in South Korea.  I moved to the USA when I was a child and am now a naturalized US citizen.  I am also pretty slim, but kind of tall too, for a Korean woman... 5'7", 125 lbs.  In everyday life, I don't get clocked at all, but feel like I get clocked all the time when I'm around other Asians, such as at an Asian grocery store... actually, people do not come up to me to say that they clocked me, but I just feel like they can tell just by looking at me.  I get a lot more stares.  Or maybe I'm just paranoid, I don't know...

Anyway, regarding Yeson, I don't know him or have gone to him, but I am very familiar with Korean culture, being a Korean myself.    So the interactions you had with his practice does not surprise me.  I hate to say this about my own people, but Korean people, in general, are just rude.  And they are especially rude if they think they are better than you or don't think a relationship with you will benefit them directly.  I suppose this is true for all cultures, but it is amplified in Korean culture.

Now I'm kind of speculating at this point, but since Yeson's practice is so successful, I get the feeling that he's not really willing to work with people like you who have potential health issues that they feel will complicate things and/or damage their reputation and/or success rate.  And again, Korean people tend to be rude and don't respect traditional western standards of courteous conduct with strangers (unlike Japanese people, who are extremely polite to strangers).

I heard your voice sample, and I think you sound very feminine.  For me, my natural male voice was already fairly high (160-170 Hz), so it didn't require as much work to get it to sound feminine.  Mostly I just had to work on resonance and intonation (which was pretty difficult actually).  But I worked, in person, with a professional voice trainer (Liz Hearns at http://www.thevoicelabinc.com/).  Across several months of weekly private, personal voice training, I was able to achieve a reasonably feminine voice.

Funny story: after I had done my legal name change, I was calling my credit card companies to change my legal name.  Some of the customer service reps kept insisting that they needed to speak to my husband or the primary male account holder, despite my insisting I was the same person.  I was actually surprised that my voice passed that well, and realized the professional voice training was more helpful than I had thought.

So, what I'm trying to say is, have you tried working with an experienced, professionally trained voice instructor?  It will take some time, and some money, and a lot of practice on your own free time, but I think it's worth it.  And it's definitely less expensive and less risky than voice surgery.  Or do you have a naturally low vocal range that makes it more difficult to train your voice without surgery?

Thanks Emily... i wish they have that kind of voice lessons in Los Angeles... i've been searching before for trans voice lessons but could'nt find one closeby but recently I've seen a few...I think I'll go for  the lessons after surgery... I dnt really get a lot of feedbacks about my voice since I am stealth but like you I  can intuitively sense it when Someone notices that my voice doesnt match the way I look but Pretty much pass almost always but I know in myself that i need some help from vfs... Ive tried several DIY voice feminization videos but I don't think it really helped. I think I am someone you can call as "tone deaf" ... I improved my voice more from research and intellectual approach like tongue placement etc and it worked to some extent but i have to put so much effort and it completely fails me when I have extremes of emotions or gets too relaxed or comfortable with the persom I am talking to.... Btw I am a skinny  petite -5'2 Asian Meztiza/ mix so I guess people are expecting to hear a higher pitched voice .