As per the subject.. I've recently noticed here that quite a number of people are implying that SRS is required to be considered transsexual. I'm a little confused by this as the identity I then get labelled with is non-binary.

I am a woman. And, in discussions with medical professionals, it is also clear that I am transsexual - whether or not I have SRS.

Is this a change in site policy or some change in the community groupthink that I wasn't aware of?

There is no change in site policy. There is no requirement for SRS.

I have noticed that most of the ones mentioned by the media tend to have that.

I consider myself a transsexual.  I am on HRT, have had FFS, and absolutely will do SRS.  But it is my personal opinion that SRS itself is not a strict requirement for being labelled as a transsexual.

The dictionary definition from Merriam-Webster says:

QuoteDefinition of transsexual
:  a person who strongly identifies with the opposite sex and may seek to live as a member of this sex especially by undergoing surgery and hormone therapy to obtain the necessary physical appearance (as by changing the external sex organs)

It seems to me that the dictionary definition is deliberately ambiguous on this issue.

Quote from: EmilyMK03 on September 27, 2016, 05:45:07 AM
Definition of transsexual
:  a person who strongly identifies with the opposite sex and may seek to live as a member of this sex especially by undergoing surgery and hormone therapy to obtain the necessary physical appearance (as by changing the external sex organs)

What is this 'sex' defined by? Genitalia? Chromosomes? On birth?
There are some cases of really young boys getting their genitals mutilated or otherwise damaged and they decide to fix it up and call them girls.

Also, if you change your sex, then you are by the definition above no longer identifying with the 'opposite sex'. Society's weird.

Quote from: EmilyMK03 on September 27, 2016, 05:45:07 AM
I consider myself a transsexual.  I am on HRT, have had FFS, and absolutely will do SRS.  But it is my personal opinion that SRS itself is not a strict requirement for being labelled as a transsexual.

The dictionary definition from Merriam-Webster says:

It seems to me that the dictionary definition is deliberately ambiguous on this issue.

Yep Ambiguous. Though the especially does leave it an open question.

'Birth sex' is whatever their sex is by the end of an arbitrarily decided window, because they somehow become 'girls' or 'boys' by the end of it. Society's logic is weird. That's millions of years of evolution for you.

The definition means having an unstoppable desire to alter your body to get extremely close to what you feel it's supposed to be. Or so I would say.

Quote from: kelly_aus on September 27, 2016, 12:33:05 AM
. . .  I've recently noticed here that quite a number of people are implying that SRS is required to be considered transsexual. . . .

I am a woman. And, in discussions with medical professionals, it is also clear that I am transsexual - whether or not I have SRS.

Is this a change in site policy or some change in the community groupthink that I wasn't aware of?

I hear ya on this!  I think you put your finger on it when you mentioned "groupthink."  Basically, this preoccupation with the state of one's genitalia comes from the muggle world - straight/cis folks struggling to put trans people into a framework they are ill-equipped to understand.

Lots of people who don't have much familiarity with the subject presume that gender identity corresponds directly to biological/genetic sex.  Not entirely an unreasonable idea, since for most people gender identity and sex are pretty much aligned.  But not so with us.

The problem is that lots of people never get beyond that stage of thinking.  I'm reminded of an incident several years ago when Janet Mock was being interviewed on television by some well-meaning person (I forget who), and the interviewer asked her whether she had had SRS.  Mock was kind of taken aback.  The interviewer apparently didn't understand how grossly inappropriate her question was.  (Interviewing a person on television and suddenly asking her what her genitals look like?  Jeez!  How offensive!)

In the muggle world, lots of people think you "become" a transsexual when you have SRS.  I don't see it that way.  I was a transsexual long before SRS.  I guess I'm still transsexual.  (Though in a way, maybe I'm not any more.  In a way, maybe I'm a just a woman with a hormone deficiency for which I'm going to be under lifelong treatment.)

Also, the common term "SRS" feeds the confusion.  "Sexual Reassignment Surgery" is a term that contains the presupposition that a surgical procedure "transforms" you from one sex to another.  In my case, that's not true.  I normally try to use the alternate term "GCS."  "Gender Confirmation Surgery" contains the presupposition that I was always (in my case) female, and the surgical procedures merely brought some parts of my anatomy into conformity with my lived/experienced gender identity.

Your gender is between your ears, not your legs. Anyone that suggests the contrary, simply doesn't understand the whole dynamic.

Perhaps I should have been clearer.. It's people on this site that I've seen saying that - and no one else.

Quote from: itsApril on September 27, 2016, 02:36:18 PM
Also, the common term "SRS" feeds the confusion.  "Sexual Reassignment Surgery" is a term that contains the presupposition that a surgical procedure "transforms" you from one sex to another.  In my case, that's not true.  I normally try to use the alternate term "GCS."  "Gender Confirmation Surgery" contains the presupposition that I was always (in my case) female, and the surgical procedures merely brought some parts of my anatomy into conformity with my lived/experienced gender identity.

I disagree.  I feel that SRS is more accurate than GCS.  My gender was confirmed when I legally changed my name and gender.  I'm recognized on my driver's license and social security records as female.  That confirms my gender.  If we're talking about surgical procedures, I'd argue that FFS is more "gender confirming" than bottom surgery.  After all, that's how others often gender you... based on how you look in everyday life.

Quote from: jentay1367 on September 27, 2016, 02:40:24 PM
Your gender is between your ears, not your legs. Anyone that suggests the contrary, simply doesn't understand the whole dynamic.

Exactly.  Which is why I disagree with using the terminology "GCS" to describe bottom surgery.  Gender is in the brain, sex is more of a physical thing and is what's between your legs.  Hence, SRS is the most accurate term IMO.

And what about those who do not get any bottom surgery at all?  IMO as long as they take HRT, and live full-time socially and legally as women, then they are women in my eyes.  FFS might help, but it's not necessary either.  Does someone need surgery to "confirm" their gender, as the term "Gender Confirmation Surgery" implies?  NO!  They are still women and should be gendered as such.

You may be familiar with the "Genderbread Person" or the "Gender Unicorn" images that are often used by trans people to explain gender/sex differences to cis people.  Those images also imply that gender is in the brain, while sex is more of a physical thing between the legs.  Again, why I prefer "Sex Reassignment Surgery" over "Gender Confirmation Surgery".  I am not getting surgery on my brain!!! 

Quote from: EmilyMK03 on September 27, 2016, 03:32:40 PM
And what about those who do not get any bottom surgery at all?  IMO as long as they take HRT, and live full-time socially and legally as women, then they are women in my eyes.  FFS might help, but it's not necessary either.  Does someone need surgery to "confirm" their gender, as the term "Gender Confirmation Surgery" implies?  NO!  They are still women and should be gendered as such.

Well, according to the posts I've read, someone who doesn't have SRS is non-binary.

QuoteYou may be familiar with the "Genderbread Person" or the "Gender Unicorn" images that are often used by trans people to explain gender/sex differences to cis people.  Those images also imply that gender is in the brain, while sex is more of a physical thing between the legs.  Again, why I prefer "Sex Reassignment Surgery" over "Gender Confirmation Surgery".  I am not getting surgery on my brain!!! 

From a surgical perspective, SRS is the most accurate. However, trans people can be overly sensitive about things where the word sex or gender is concerned and will rename things with no view to accuracy.

Quote from: EmilyMK03 on September 27, 2016, 03:32:40 PM
And what about those who do not get any bottom surgery at all?  IMO as long as they take HRT, and live full-time socially and legally as women, then they are women in my eyes.  FFS might help, but it's not necessary either.  Does someone need surgery to "confirm" their gender, as the term "Gender Confirmation Surgery" implies?  NO!  They are still women and should be gendered as such.

You may be familiar with the "Genderbread Person" or the "Gender Unicorn" images that are often used by trans people to explain gender/sex differences to cis people.  Those images also imply that gender is in the brain, while sex is more of a physical thing between the legs.  Again, why I prefer "Sex Reassignment Surgery" over "Gender Confirmation Surgery".  I am not getting surgery on my brain!!! 

I'd suggest that those who are born inter sexed are allowed to find their own default regarding their gender persuasion. The rest of us are held to a different scrutiny by the ignorance and fear of a scarily prurient society. We still show people regularly on television being slaughtered in heinous ways, yet if anyone uses invective or is shown naked or in any form of coital congress, the general population has a fit. Nonsense.....we can kill em' but we cant make em'?    Love it!      It's what allowed me to be the queer that  I am in a shameless way and deal with these things outside the binary and unfettered by a convoluted, erroneous consciousness.  I refuse to held down by a low standardardized gang mentality. I'm better than and worth more than any of that ridiculousness.

As this thread is targeted at me and I don't wish to get in an argument, I will simply point out this which can be found here

Transsexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

Now I still use this as a general guideline but the non binary didn't exist when I transitioned so things were much simpler. Now I believe there is a fuzzy line between the non binary and transsexualism. People may be non binary opposite their birth gender and for many reason a transsexual may chose not to have surgery. What you call yourself is your own business and I don't have the knowledge to say different. Labels are only labels and what is important is that you find happiness in what ever form it comes.

You are spreading the wrong message - at least according to the professionals I've spoken to. As I have had hormone treatment, they are more than happy to give me the appropriate label - Transsexual.

Some are unable to have surgery for medical reasons, who are you to label such people as non-binary? OK, it may not fit your view of the world, that doesn't make it right.

QuoteIf you don't want surgery, that eliminates transsexualism and puts you in the non binary.

This is pretty bluntly stating a fallacy.

QuoteI was transsexual which means I wanted surgery. Non binary may or may not want surgery.

This is more veiled, but says much the same thing.

I'll roll with the American Psychiatric Association definitions and descriptions which appear to be the ones accepted by most therapists and psychologists in my little country.

http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

Quote
The term transsexual refers to people whose gender identity is different from their assigned sex. Often, transsexual people alter or wish to alter their bodies through hormones, surgery, and other means to make their bodies as congruent as possible with their gender identities. This process of transition through medical intervention is often referred to as sex or gender reassignment, but more recently is also referred to as gender affirmation. People who were assigned female, but identify and live as male and alter or wish to alter their bodies through medical intervention to more closely resemble their gender identity are known as transsexual men or transmen (also known as female-to-male or FTM). Conversely, people who were assigned male, but identify and live as female and alter or wish to alter their bodies through medical intervention to more closely resemble their gender identity are known as transsexual women or transwomen (also known as male-to-female or MTF). Some individuals who transition from one gender to another prefer to be referred to as a man or a woman, rather than as transgender.

I realize this definition differs from the popular ones in the "More Trans Than Thou" communities, but it is a more accurate description.  Having my outie turned into an innie doesn't suddenly make me a transsexual.  I was one before if I managed to get the letters.  Taking the blue pill doesn't suddenly zap me from cross-dresser to transsexual.  I had to be identified as someone who wanted to alter my body through medical intervention before I could get medical intervention such as hormone therapy.

Being a transsexual is very much a state of mind.

I like my state of mind.  I'm very happy in here right now.  I know what I'll be doing some day. He, he... She!

Dena posted the link and I shall post the content for the terms used on the site:

Community Definitions:


Transgender: an inclusive umbrella term which covers anyone who transcends their birth gender for any reason. This includes but is not limited to Androgynes, Crossdressers, Drag kings, Drag queens, Intersexuals, Transsexuals, and ->-bleeped-<-s.

Androgyne: An androgynous person

Androgynous: Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior.

Crossdresser: a person wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally no sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

Drag kings: performers, usually gay women or transgendered men - who dress in "drag," clothing associated with the male gender, usually highly exaggerated versions thereof. Drag kings often do drag to perform, singing or lip-syncing and dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades, cabarets, discotheques, and other celebrations and venues.

Drag queens: performers, usually gay men or transgendered women - who dress in "drag," clothing associated with the female gender, usually highly exaggerated versions thereof. Drag queens often do drag to perform, singing or lip-syncing and dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades, cabarets, discotheques, and other celebrations and venues.

Intersexual: a person born with the full or partial sex organs of both sexes; with underdeveloped or ambiguous sex organs; a sex chromosome karyotype other than XX or XY; or sex hormone receptor problems which prevent normal absorption of Estrogen or Androgens. Intersexual persons may seek to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

Significant other: for the purpose of this site, someone close to a person who is transgender. This may be a mother, father, son, daughter, sister, brother, family member, husband, wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, or friend.

Transsexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

->-bleeped-<-: a person who wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally a strong sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.


I appreciate that people can get very concerned over terminology and this Site accepts all. Terminology is as ever an evolving matter in any field whether it is to do with gender, sexuality, science, literature, history or whatever.

I do not think that there is any use in discussing this issue further. If people have a strong point of view please message me and I shall consider the option for possible future modifications of the terminology.

Thank You

Cindy
Forum Admin.