Well all I wanted to say this is basically: Please avoid building another fake persona after getting rid of the fake male persona you invented to hide being feminine inside. Do not let that male persona build another female persona on top by learning and mimicking other women. I spoke with many people who did that and regret it because they never felt real. Instead dismantle the fake male persona that you constructed to hide your feminine self and see, if there was a feminine self to hide behind all that hypermasculine or regular masculine behaviour, its still there and knows what to do. Maybe you need to experiment a bit to discover what you are like - but its more a self-discovery than doing mimickry.

Quote from: anjaq on October 18, 2016, 05:08:21 PM
Well all I wanted to say this is basically: Please avoid building another fake persona after getting rid of the fake male persona you invented to hide being feminine inside. Do not let that male persona build another female persona on top by learning and mimicking other women. I spoke with many people who did that and regret it because they never felt real. Instead dismantle the fake male persona that you constructed to hide your feminine self and see, if there was a feminine self to hide behind all that hypermasculine or regular masculine behaviour, its still there and knows what to do. Maybe you need to experiment a bit to discover what you are like - but its more a self-discovery than doing mimickry.

It's not building a new persona "on top" but it's not entirely solipsistic, either.

Transition is kind of like adolescence.  Yes, we have a genuine interiority that begs to shine through.  But, like any adolescent, it often comes across as awkward and ungainly, as not quite right.  Much we know what to do instinctively, but we don't always know how to do it, let alone the nuance.  And sometimes, though close observation, we see other things we never thought of that we might like to try.

It was much like this for my cis-sister, growing up.  It took practice to get good at what she wanted to do.  And she didn't know everything at once.  She learned from our mother and grandmothers, through peers and what was on TV, in the movies, and so forth.  I'd catch her practicing in the mirror, or just messing around with her friends.  When Zappa's "Valley Girl" hit the airwaves, everyone was playing off that... and even today, decades later, some of it still sticks, even if only in the form of certain subtle verbal tics.  This went on for years.  As Simone de Beauvoir said, a woman isn't born, she is made.

But yes, it's very important to not let the old false persona have reign over the process.  But how to break that shell?  Having repeated various things over the year to "fit in" there's some "muscle memory" to be overcome, often depending on how long one played the role, to be sure.  Which is perfectly normal.  A survival reflex, nothing more. 

Sometimes it takes some elbow grease to break it down and scrub it away.

Of course one will pick up things from others and certainly from media and fashion hypes. I think this should be playful though - if you feel like doing some gesture - either because you just want to do it or because you saw someone do it, try it if it is "you". My own experience is, that I did not consciously learn these things. I picked them up all my life, just like any cis girl would. From peers, parents, women in the media - I just could not apply many of these things as long as I was hiding. I also believe a lot of things are somehow coming from the inside. I am not a great fan of gender theory stating that "women are made". Of course some things are societal - one can see this looking at other cultures and how women differ in these things there. But there is a large overlap in the body language betwwen all cultures and I do not think this is by chance.
Now I guess some are afraid that there is nothing, a void, if they let go of the old. That they have to learn all by mimicking others and then maybe they feel intimidated by statements like mine, because they think it may imply they are not really women if they do not have that knowledge right away. This is not what I try to say for transsexual women - it may be true for people with a male identity, who cannot let go of that identity because that is all they really have - but for thos who are female at their core, the task is to get to that core and letting go of those old patterns and memories can be hard, I can imagine if you traansition as an adult it is harder, because you lived longer with the fake persona. But even then - a great way is to LET GO of it. Not to use "ellbow grease" and dismantle it the hard way. Say "thank you for protecting me for those years, I do not need you anymore, male persona (maybe use the old name of it), goodbye". I know it sounds easier said than done, but it really is that easy, once one can fully accept to really be a woman, not a trans or a woman born male or a male who became a woman or something like that. It also requires letting go of the good stuff about the old persona. Maybe "he" was caring and had a couple of hobbies and good friends and a family with kids. Some if it may stay in the sense that it is re-integrated, if it really was part of your real persona, but some of it has to go, at least in terms of the psychological bond. If it does not go, the old persona will linger around and make it harder. It is a matter of trust. Do you know that scene in Indiana jones where they step into that gorge just to discover there is an invisible bridge going over it and so they do not fall down at all? This is is - you have to step over that ledge and trust your true self to know or figure out what to do, even if it will maybe unfitting at first because you are in a way just 12 years old. But stepping over that ledge means to really and faithfully let go of the male persona completely. Otherwise the temptation may always be to try and transfprm that male persona into a female one by training, learning, rewriting patterns,...
Its like trying to upgrade a very complex operating system to a completely different version - sometimes it is easier to just store important data and make a clean re-install and then reboot with the new system and re-install some of the old programs and data which still work on that system.

Ok, enough of the metaphors...

Quote from: anjaq on October 19, 2016, 03:17:59 AMbut for thos who are female at their core, the task is to get to that core and letting go of those old patterns and memories can be hard, I can imagine if you traansition as an adult it is harder, because you lived longer with the fake persona. But even then - a great way is to LET GO of it. Not to use "ellbow grease" and dismantle it the hard way.

Yes, this!  Okay, I think I grok where you're coming from, and I'm completely on board.

The elbow grease I'm talking about comes after letting go.  It's the same elbow grease that every adolescent woman uses to figure out who she is.  But first, as you rightly point out, she's got to step forward unencumbered.

Sorry for my confusion.

QuoteSay "thank you for protecting me for those years, I do not need you anymore, male persona (maybe use the old name of it), goodbye". I know it sounds easier said than done, but it really is that easy, once one can fully accept to really be a woman, not a trans or a woman born male or a male who became a woman or something like that. It also requires letting go of the good stuff about the old persona. Maybe "he" was caring and had a couple of hobbies and good friends and a family with kids. Some if it may stay in the sense that it is re-integrated, if it really was part of your real persona, but some of it has to go, at least in terms of the psychological bond. If it does not go, the old persona will linger around and make it harder.

One way to conceive of this is as a form of "ego death" -- a spiritual self-sacrifice on the part of the constructed ego that once provided the "protection" you alluded to.

But how does one do this?  It's easy to say, but perhaps not so easy to accomplish.  I'm not so sure it's just a matter of will power.  "Letting go" is something that so many spiritual disciplines teach, and the reason they are "disciplines" is that it's not easy to let go.  There is resistance.  Things that can facilitate this include:

-- Ritual: Like you say, just saying it out loud or writing it down makes it "real" for the subconscious, where that old persona may have sunk down some roots.  Or going to a river with some rocks that represent the various aspects of that old persona (associated through meditation or the like) and physically dropping them in the water, a literal enactment of "letting go."

-- Purge: Throwing out all the old stuff that persona accumulated.  Pictures, awards, trophies, knick-knacks, mementos, and of course clothes. Having those things gone forever can be very liberating.  And of course, this too can be ritualized.  I personally found this very upsetting as well, but in a good way.

-- Arts: Collage, writing, working clay, drawing, whatever it is, get into a meditative mindset (a "no mind") mindset and let your hands do what they need to do.  What comes out can be very revealing, and can even serve as a more concrete metaphor of this process. 

QuoteIt is a matter of trust. Do you know that scene in Indiana jones where they step into that gorge just to discover there is an invisible bridge going over it and so they do not fall down at all? This is is - you have to step over that ledge and trust your true self to know or figure out what to do, even if it will maybe unfitting at first because you are in a way just 12 years old. But stepping over that ledge means to really and faithfully let go of the male persona completely. Otherwise the temptation may always be to try and transfprm that male persona into a female one by training, learning, rewriting patterns,...

I remember -- it seems so long ago! -- about four or five months into this process, when I was doing electrolysis and voice work and therapy, before even trying hormones, an evening where "he" wrote me a letter saying goodbye. I tucked it into a file folder and promised not to open it for five years (my Goddess it was condescending!).  A few nights later, snuggling with my partner, I "felt" him leave.  It was like a "pop" in my head, and then he was gone. 

This was after several weeks of deliberate meditation on the subject.  And old mentor of mine (an old schooler from way back in the day) had encouraged this exact same process you now describe, the "letting go," and using a wide variety of metaphors to describe this jettisoning. 

To put it in terms of Campbell's "Heroic Journey," the call to adventure is dysphoria and the hope of curing it.  The "letting go" is necessary to "cross the threshold" (the Belly of the Whale is literally death and rebirth) into the deep psychic realms where the "boon" of the original self is found.  And then there's a Return to the material world, to integrate this self in society, which is where the elbow grease happens.

It just now occurs to me that I didn't truly find my voice until after that ego-death had happened.

Huh.

Yes, some changes cannot happen before some things are gone. One thing to note about this though: It can be that one thinks one has gotten rid of it all just to find later that there was still something left. I had another "letting go" moment over a year into transition, when I let some things go that I built as a sort of trans woman persona. It happened when I had the voice surgery - I felt like some part of that old persona has left me again - the voice that kept reminind me even when I talked to myself about being trans. I felt this coming even in the time I could not speak for over a month. I turns out I had been holding back on some feminine expressions - gestures, behaviours, speaking, also appearance/clothes because I felt I was not free enough yet. I was amazed and it came unexpected as I though I had shed those things that hold me back when I transitioned. I cannot but wonder if something like this would happen if I go for FFS - which would be about the last thing that I can now imagine which could provide such an event again. But who knows - maybe finding a male partner would be another  - or marrying him - lol

One thing I want to know out of curiousity now...

Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 18, 2016, 06:29:47 PM
As Simone de Beauvoir said, a woman isn't born, she is made.

I wonder are men made to be men as well?

QuoteShe learned from our mother and grandmothers, through peers and what was on TV, in the movies, and so forth.  I'd catch her practicing in the mirror, or just messing around with her friends

So it was a conscious learning process? Is this the same for boys too? And what abouot trans women then? Did you pracice to be boyish in front of the mirror?

I never saw my sister do something like this and I asked some friends if they did, and no one did. I do not know why that is - maybe its an USA thing. I have the impression Americans are much more into media, stars, idols,... trying to look like Kim Kardashian or Pamela Anderson or whatever. I doubt that this is something universal. If there is no TVs and no mirrors and all of that, girls still would be girly. Girls were girly in kindergarten, which is why I liked to play with them much more than with the boys. I recently read, and this fit, that one can feel like one has missed the class where boys practice to be boys - but there was no such class - well except if it is true that boys actually do practice in front of the mirror to be boys...

Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 15, 2016, 11:03:03 PM
It also helps to understand what cruft may have accumulated, and to be aware of it.  For example, the rhythm of a conversation -- so often we were trained (or permitted) to talk over other people, to zero in on rational points rather than paying attention to emotional impact, to try and "fix" things rather than simply being sympathetic.  In women's conversations particularly, often there's so much going on.  Conversations have intentions beyond the subject matter.  It's a time to bond, to relax, to vent, and mostly to just be heard.  So be an active conversationalist.  Ask questions.  Nod, mm-hmm, yes.  Frequently give (more) space to the other woman, don't hog it up for yourself if you're not in crisis.  Stay engaged. 

That's how it worked for me as well. I guess it's better to let your real self take over and to be aware of the bagage you've had to learn in order to survive the male gendering. Try not to focus on the "tactics" of coming across as a woman, that's just another male way of approaching things (sorry for the trigger). Giving space to eachother is very important when bonding with other girls/women, the conversations are just more about that: talking. Letting eachother express ourselves. Male gendering means coming across as strong and resiliant, which shows itself in conversations. Female gendering focuses much more on receptiveness and sharing. Let yourself flow into that mode, and don't focus on learning yet another "fixed" set of behaviors. They can prevent you from getting what you really need: sharing with other women.

Quote from: DawnOday on October 18, 2016, 03:47:22 PM
Harley, thanks for the suggestion. Have you ever seen a linebacker do a pole dance? I used to ballet dance but that stopped around 12 as I was nearing 6' tall, Misty Copeland is 5'2"   Here's the dealio. I am desperate to finish off my life being who I truly always believed I was. Therein lies the rub. I have been tempting fate for the last 25 years and I alway felt my days were numbered. For many years when I went to bed I didn't know if I would wake up. What I have is this deep fear I cannot get all I want to accomplish done in time.  If my wife did not love me in spite of myself, it would pretty much be a no brainer years ago. At least from the early 90's.  I am also an Extreme introvert which makes it very hard to communicate with others. I know what I want to say, but am so sure you don't know what I am talking about that I start to focus on minutia. I also speak in monotone. Everyone can guess who is on the line when I call them. Even my ex who I had not spoken to for 37 years. I'm still in the discovery mode as I knew very little up to 7 months ago.

I'm 5'11. I still stand by my advice of pole dance. Like anything else, it takes time to get the hang of it. It will help you come out of your shell and gain some self confidence in your new form. I do wish you the best.

The best way to make things feel more natural is to stop thinking about what is natural and what isn't... a little self confidence in what you're doing will go a long way. I feel that a little positive reenforcement from a dance coach would give you just the boost you need... I'm sure that even ballroom, swing, or country would do the trick... and at most studios... women don't need partners to join. I did private lessons because I am quite shy.

Quote from: anjaq on October 20, 2016, 02:43:06 AM
One thing I want to know out of curiousity now...

I wonder are men made to be men as well?

So it was a conscious learning process? Is this the same for boys too? And what abouot trans women then? Did you pracice to be boyish in front of the mirror?

I never saw my sister do something like this and I asked some friends if they did, and no one did. I do not know why that is - maybe its an USA thing. I have the impression Americans are much more into media, stars, idols,... trying to look like Kim Kardashian or Pamela Anderson or whatever. I doubt that this is something universal. If there is no TVs and no mirrors and all of that, girls still would be girly. Girls were girly in kindergarten, which is why I liked to play with them much more than with the boys. I recently read, and this fit, that one can feel like one has missed the class where boys practice to be boys - but there was no such class - well except if it is true that boys actually do practice in front of the mirror to be boys...

Not every culture has mirrors, but all people have mirror neurons.  In some pedagogical theories, everything we learn we learn by mirroring the people around us.  Not perfectly, of course, there's always a degree of variation and personalization, especially as we get older.  However, it's not typically conscious, though it depends on what you're trying to learn.  Maybe in my family it was more conscious because Mom is such a self-conscious woman to begin with.  Hmm.

As to Beauvoir's point, our conception of womanhood is cultural.  Which means it varies from culture to culture.  What it means to be a woman is very different for a woman in a long-lost Amazon tribe than it does in the West, and of course there are differences between Sweden and Spain as there are between Detroit and Mississippi.  And there are differences from family to family.  What girls do today is not what girls did a hundred years ago. 

There is no essence, and I assume it's the same for boys.  They too learn from those around them.  They teach each other.  Woe be to those who don't conform. 

Now, this is not to say that what we want to do is entirely mediated by culture.  But there's a difference between wanting to do something, and doing it well, especially when the body has accumulated so many different muscle memories and has been ravaged by years of hormone poisoning.  So I see nothing wrong with being self-conscious about learning.  It's just training, and once a degree of familiarity is achieved it doesn't have to stay conscious, but slips back into "automatic" and so becomes natural.  And frankly, at the time, I rathered to get feedback from the mirror than screw something up in public. 

Quote from: anjaq on October 20, 2016, 02:43:06 AM
So it was a conscious learning process? Is this the same for boys too? And what abouot trans women then? Did you pracice to be boyish in front of the mirror?

I don't know about anyone else here, but I sure did. I remember experimenting with how "wide" to make my walk. In the mirror I practiced facial expressions and some poses. Masculine handshakes are also a much-practiced thing... somewhat competitive, too! Maybe I'm weird, though.

Quote from: MeghanMe on October 20, 2016, 12:26:08 PM
I don't know about anyone else here, but I sure did. I remember experimenting with how "wide" to make my walk. In the mirror I practiced facial expressions and some poses. Masculine handshakes are also a much-practiced thing... somewhat competitive, too! Maybe I'm weird, though.

Ok and before you did that, did you learn how to do these things in a feminine way, so you had to learn it differently?

Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 20, 2016, 07:29:25 AM
As to Beauvoir's point, our conception of womanhood is cultural.  Which means it varies from culture to culture.  What it means to be a woman is very different for a woman in a long-lost Amazon tribe than it does in the West, and of course there are differences between Sweden and Spain as there are between Detroit and Mississippi.  And there are differences from family to family.  What girls do today is not what girls did a hundred years ago. 

There is no essence, and I assume it's the same for boys.  They too learn from those around them.  They teach each other.  Woe be to those who don't conform. 

Now this is something I would not sign off. Yes of course there are cultural differences in what is expected to be a woman. To marry a man, to be a housewife or to be a working woman or to wear a dress or to be bad in math,... but if you look at all the cultures, especoally if you look at children, there are very man similarities when it comes to some behaviour, some preferences and mostly when it comes to body language and language overall. Some cultures may encourage girls to do this very much, to be more feminine, other cultures may rather discourage it a bit, but I am pretty sure one would recognize a girl by her movements and body language in almost all cultures if we just see a video and the shape of the body is neutral enough to not influence us.
So I really think a lot of this is "bult in" and can only be allowed or disallowed to express itself.

Quote from: anjaq on October 20, 2016, 01:21:07 PM
Ok and before you did that, did you learn how to do these things in a feminine way, so you had to learn it differently?

Some yes, some no. I was told that I held my books like a girl while waiting for school, that I looked at my nails wrong, and other things that I don't remember quite as clearly. I've been gender policed on saying "sorry" and "just" so many times I've lost count (though I only ever half-heartedly tried to get rid of that one). By the time I hit junior high school I was pretty obsessive about how I moved. And I have *never* felt comfortable in my own skin.

I don't really see what it matters, though. People learn their mannerisms; that learning is gendered; many people feel they were poisoned by their upbringing and want to re-train themselves when they transition. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Quote from: MeghanMe on October 20, 2016, 02:03:50 PM
Some yes, some no. I was told that I held my books like a girl while waiting for school, that I looked at my nails wrong, and other things that I don't remember quite as clearly. I've been gender policed on saying "sorry" and "just" so many times I've lost count (though I only ever half-heartedly tried to get rid of that one).

So, did you practice and learn how to hold your books like a girl and how to look at your nails like a girl? Did you have to learn to be like a girl before school? And if you did, why did you go through all this effort at such a young age to be girly?

QuoteI don't really see what it matters, though. People learn their mannerisms; that learning is gendered; many people feel they were poisoned by their upbringing and want to re-train themselves when they transition. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

It matters because those things you described - holding your books like a girl and all that (walk, carry yourself etc) have probably (unless you reply to the question above that you actually did learn these things before school) just been there. For me it was like that. I did not learn how to stand, walk, behave and simply be girlish before school, yet I was doing all of this and then I was pushed away and made fun of because of it and only then I started to consciously learn "how to behave" - in that case I tried to match the expectations of the others based on my assigned gender. My point was, that when I came out to myself in my late adolescence, I stopped doing these things that i consciously learned and did what I did before school again - what was already there. And this is so much easier than to try and learn some new set of behaviours from other people.

I guess some girls consciously will try and learn from other women, idols etc - but I think this is superficial. ITs about fashion and about fitting in and overall similar to wearing clothes like the idols we like. But under this there is a bigger bulk of behavioours and body language that is not trained, just like it is not trained that girls hold their books in a certain way or walk in a certain way or look more at faces than at objects when they are still toddlers.

Hmm... I think I misunderstood you. You're right that I didn't learn to hold my books, etc., "like a girl" before I went to school. I learned to do all that "like a boy" after I was criticized. (Take a moment and think how dumb it is that holding books and looking at nails are gendered in the first place!) That seems to be exactly what you're saying here. So I apologize.

[EDIT: Stuff deleted due to being totally off topic for this thread]

Anyway, this can be fun to argue, but "Nature vs. Nurture" *is* one of the great unanswered questions. I doubt we'll come to any resolutions here.

[Further EDIT: Sorry for the topic drift! Would anyone like to resume this thread with the original intent restored?]

[EDIT: Stuff deleted due to being totally off topic for this thread]

Anyway, this can be fun to argue, but "Nature vs. Nurture" *is* one of the great unanswered questions. I doubt we'll come to any resolutions here.

[Further EDIT: Sorry for the topic drift! Would anyone like to resume this thread with the original intent restored?]
[/quote]

LOL, this thread started going off topic when someone started blathering in a very specious way about 'male privilege' like that has to do with the OP's question wondering what nuances they should be concerned about regarding (female I assume) gestures.

Anyway, this can be fun to argue, but "Nature vs. Nurture" *is* one of the great unanswered questions. I doubt we'll come to any resolutions here.


[/quote]

Why do people continue to wonder if it is Nature or Nurture? Is it not abundantly clear that it is both? The question is simply how much of each and in what ways does nurture affect nature. Can one ever dominate the other?

Quote from: Stephenie S on October 21, 2016, 09:55:55 PM

LOL, this thread started going off topic when someone started blathering in a very specious way about 'male privilege' like that has to do with the OP's question wondering what nuances they should be concerned about regarding (female I assume) gestures.

See, that's interesting... It's not about gestures and mannerisms, but someone who says things a cis woman wouldn't because she's never (for example) personally experienced street harassment might have a hard time passing... at least among cis women. Anyway, yeah, it's been a long time since this thread was on topic.

Quote from: MeghanMe on October 22, 2016, 01:41:26 AM
See, that's interesting... It's not about gestures and mannerisms, but someone who says things a cis woman wouldn't because she's never (for example) personally experienced street harassment might have a hard time passing... at least among cis women. Anyway, yeah, it's been a long time since this thread was on topic.

I have experienced harassment on the street but it wasn't because of my mannerisms is was because I got clocked by a couple of construction workers.
I think the OP wanted to know about mannerisms in order to appear and feel more authentic.
They were in effect asking for some tips, not a treatise on the supposed existence of male privilege an idea that has no clear definition. Further it is a notion that one is not allowed to argue against. The notion has a damned if you do damned if you don't aspect to it, in effect a catch 22. It was a pointless addition to a discussion about what the OP was asking for.

No problem, Stephenie. Sorry you feel that way about "privelege." Many people have emotional baggage around that word, and I can understand feeling attacked by certain loaded phrases.

I do think that in addition to mannerisms (which are important! I try to watch women, especially trans women in YouTube videos, to see what they do), *what* you say can impact passability.  Like, subject matter and attitude as well as word choice. Not to mention tendency to interrupt others, resistance to being interrupted oneself, and so forth. I interpreted the post that upset you to mean that. I could certainly be wrong!

Sorry to hear you were harassed on the street.