Last week I took my son to the doctor for an immunization. At the check-in desk we were greeted by a young woman who spoke in an unexpectedly masculine voice. I realized that she was trans, confirmed by the oversized photo on her name badge which clearly showed her at an earlier point in her transition.

As a transwoman myself (though not in transition), I was surprised and flummoxed by the things which quickly flashed through my mind:

1. Oh my God! She's trans!
2. I must not show this realization on my face.
3. Wow, I would never have known just by looking at her.
4. Her voice betrayed her in a big way.
5. This is very weird. But why?
6. I don't care that a transwoman is checking us in. Really, I don't. Why am I even thinking about it?
7. I must behave absolutely normally and not be rattled by this.
8. I must not inadvertently insult her by treating her any differently.
9. My son is going to ask questions. What will I say?
10. OMG! She's wearing a skirt! (as she pushed away from her station for a moment)
11. Hey, that's a nice skirt. And a beautiful sweater. She looks great.
12. She got us checked in pretty smoothly and quickly. Nice job.
13. She's so lucky. I wish I could be her.
14. She's got a pretty sweet job -- stable, reasonable pay, probably good benefits for transitioning.
15. I bet that not all her transactions in life are smooth.

My 11-year-old son didn't say a word. If he noticed anything, he didn't let on. I didn't say anything to him either.

Walking away from the transaction, I felt, well, weird. All of these thoughts were basically involuntary, but I felt a little ashamed to even be thinking them.

I wasn't judging her -- or was I? My reactions became suddenly self-conscious because I was interacting with someone who lives outside of societal norms (versus me, for example, who still lives within them). I admired her courage but felt uncomfortable all the same -- and I don't think this really had anything to do with my own gender identity.

Because no one else present knew about my gender identity, I basically reacted to her largely as a cis male, non-trans person would. I hate when I do that, but I also often hate having the overlay of being trans, which complicates social interactions immensely. It's hard to see the interaction clearly.

But I think this was a lesson in empathy. I think. And, somehow, I think I was schooled, though I'm still processing what I learned.

Lora

Interesting. I have caught myself in similar situations - in most cases I would be much more interested in asking / confirming that my assumption is right to start a conversation about it...

One example being a a work function at my wife work and one of her co-workers seemed to have a trans women partner. I would have loved to go over and start chatting with her, maybe learn from her and simply not feel so alone in the trans world. But I simply could not which is odd - it should not be any kind of oddness, especially being a trans women myself...

Same at my PCP where I saw someone I suspect being a trans women in the waiting area (and yes, in this case her voice gave her away too).

Kind of made me realize what many other people go through experiencing me in the very early stages of transition. Still hope one day it will simply be normal...

I appreciate your honesty and imagine that many of us have had that kind of interaction.  I am not suggesting you have internalized transphobia but I have had to deal with getting over that hurdle myself.  Although I want the freedom to be myself I also understand the dissonance cis or trans people might feel when one of us is obviously out and obviously trans and perhaps not passing to some degree.  Our voice could be one of those "tells" and I decided to stop my voice training when I felt like I was losing my authenticity and putting on another act.  I had enough of doing the "man act" for decades and will not jump from one stereotypical gender role box to another.

It is reasonable, IMO, for some to experience discomfort with something that might seem strange, unfamiliar and/or exotic.  One thing many of us don't want is to outed by others, including other trans people.  When i first came out and was hanging with a T-Girls group at a bar, one of the women got in my face about not working hard enough to be passable like her.  The lesson I learned is that sadly we can be the most critical judges of people in our own community.  Who sets the standards?  What is success?  I trust that with more of us non binary trans people being OUT that the world will come to appreciate and respect the gender diversity all around us. 

You recognized a lesson too and your innate curiosity to know more and be empathetic is understandable.  We have more lessons ahead to process

Your list of things was very interesting.  I've actually never been in that situation but have wondered what I would do in your situation.  I have also wondered what it would be like from the other side of the window.

With the exception of #4 (the voice) you had mostly at the top things about YOU while the items at the bottom were about HER.  I would suggest that over time, maybe even next time you go in, you might start to reverse the order.  The first thing eventually will be what women notice about other women.  Things like, makeup, shoes, blouse/skirt, ... etc and totally ignore anything else.

Thanks for the post and being very honest.  It should start some interesting conversation.

Quote from: Tessa James on October 28, 2016, 12:54:44 PM
I appreciate your honesty and imagine that many of us have had that kind of interaction.  I am not suggesting you have internalized transphobia but I have had to deal with getting over that hurdle myself.  Although I want the freedom to be myself I also understand the dissonance cis or trans people might feel when one of us is obviously out and obviously trans and perhaps not passing to some degree.  Our voice could be one of those "tells" and I decided to stop my voice training when I felt like I was losing my authenticity and putting on another act.  I had enough of doing the "man act" for decades and will not jump from one stereotypical gender role box to another.

It is reasonable, IMO, for some to experience discomfort with something that might seem strange, unfamiliar and/or exotic.  One thing many of us don't want is to outed by others, including other trans people.  When i first came out and was hanging with a T-Girls group at a bar, one of the women got in my face about not working hard enough to be passable like her.  The lesson I learned is that sadly we can be the most critical judges of people in our own community.  Who sets the standards?  What is success?  I trust that with more of us non binary trans people being OUT that the world will come to appreciate and respect the gender diversity all around us. 

You recognized a lesson too and your innate curiosity to know more and be empathetic is understandable.  We have more lessons ahead to process

I will fess up...I have had and probably still have a little internalised transphobia... hell it was practically beaten into                              me when I was at school growing up. By the time I was about 16 it was a real conflict for me I couldn't understand how I could want to be a girl but not be one of "them" I was different...yeah right . My upbringing was, 4 brothers, straight white catholic, benny hill upbringing, I had some vague idea about Kings Cross in Sydney where "they" hung out. Only good for show biz is what I was taught...it's ok to look via a cabaret show...but don't get too close. You get the picture

It was not until I began to own my transphobia that I began to deal with my issues. I had a reasonable childhood,  others may not describe it that way but it was the only one I had and apart from wanting to be a girl it wasn't too bad. All my Aunts and Uncles in those days were all homophobic and trans people were only seen in drag shows or as caricatures for someone's entertainment. As I got into my middle teens and realised that I was most likely "one of them" but the idea was too fantastical to be true so I dismissed it out of hand ...almost. By this stage my own internalised transphobia was well and truly working, it was part of what prevented me from transition in the first place.

So what about now? I am still working on it to be honest. But the first step for me was to admit that I felt that way despite the incongruity with who I am. Social conditioning runs very deep and takes time to change.

I said to my brother that of course I expected him to be transphobic because him and I had the same upbringing and this behaviour is learned so it can be un-learned. He was shocked when I told him, that I used to feel the same way he does...how is that even possible he said to me. I said because you and I had the same values and experiences fed to us growing up.

I am much better than I was but it is still something I need to be aware of for no other reason that to keep it in mind before I judge other's who are critical and require education.

Liz

I think you did just fine.  I haven't been in quite the same situation, but I have no doubt that my reactions would be similar.  But to those thoughts, I would add:

16. Thoughts 1-15 are just mental static.
17. Be nice to her.
18. Don't out her, not even in private.

Quote from: KathyLauren on October 28, 2016, 03:08:18 PM
18. Don't out her, not even in private.

100% agree with that.

Also, I guess this story just goes to show how important voice training (and possibly voice surgery) is for passing.

Quote from: Tessa James on October 28, 2016, 12:54:44 PMAlthough I want the freedom to be myself I also understand the dissonance cis or trans people might feel when one of us is obviously out and obviously trans and perhaps not passing to some degree.  Our voice could be one of those "tells" and I decided to stop my voice training when I felt like I was losing my authenticity and putting on another act.  I had enough of doing the "man act" for decades and will not jump from one stereotypical gender role box to another.

If being trans is your truth, and you're visibly trans -- you're passing as trans -- well, that's what you want, right?

QuoteWhen i first came out and was hanging with a T-Girls group at a bar, one of the women got in my face about not working hard enough to be passable like her.  The lesson I learned is that sadly we can be the most critical judges of people in our own community.  Who sets the standards?  What is success?  I trust that with more of us non binary trans people being OUT that the world will come to appreciate and respect the gender diversity all around us. 

She sounds like a, well, we all know the word.

Quote from: translora on October 28, 2016, 12:23:13 PMBut I think this was a lesson in empathy. I think. And, somehow, I think I was schooled, though I'm still processing what I learned.

Understanding that this is a typical reaction when you don't elicit just one type of gendering, how does it make you feel about your own transitional goals?

Quote from: EmilyMK03 on October 28, 2016, 05:05:14 PMAlso, I guess this story just goes to show how important voice training (and possibly voice surgery) is for passing.

Absolutely.

Quote from: KathyLauren on October 28, 2016, 03:08:18 PM18. Don't out her, not even in private.

As Emily said, 100% this.

She's probably already recognized that she's been clocked.  And unless she initiates a conversation about it, you can't presume that she wanted to be "read" as trans in the first place. 

We have all been through going to school for years. What better training for judging people on their looks! We almost have to  reprogram the  thought process not to think thoughts of how someone looks. The best advice I know of and read here is to just be nice and concentrate on that. Having had my experiences with being stared at, I wonder if the world would be better if everyone had a day where they get stared at. Then they might be a bit more empathetic to others. When you see someone else who is trans it is pretty hard not make comparisons. Its a sort of feedback in a way.
Monica

I know that situation.  I think you handled it perfectly.  There are these 2 girls that I see regularly, and I'm aware they're trans* because I've seen them at various stages of transition.  I always freeze up when I see them, and consider trying to talk to them.  I would really love to be able to talk to another trans* person in real life and maybe be  able to gauge if I'm cis, confused, schizophrenic, or something else.  However, I just don't think there's a good enough way to do that.  In the situation you were in, just going about your business was a very wise choice for a situation like that which you didn't expect to be in.

Once had a trans waitress. Although I read her immediately, I wouldn't let on that I had read someone as a transwoman. Just took care to be polite, and left a larger than average tip.

I had acouple of instances recently  one was after i had just finished my first hrt appointment  ..went to a food hall and at a table near me was a transgjrl at first i was looking at her because she was so beautiful  then i realized she was trans because her voice was a little of key though she was doing a good job ...and she was overusing her hands anyway she noticed me noticeing her and i just glanced away to give her the impression  i was just another guy checking out a pretty woman  i did that because i didnt want to spoil her day  by clocking her ?
Although i think it would only have been me ....because the saying goes "it takes one to know one "
But i desperately  wanted to go over and talk to her
Second time was in my friends adult  shop  this transwoman walked through the door wearing a beautfil long dress lime green ...my favorkte femme color sarah went out to serve her ....i wanted to go out too but did not want to disturb her space ......i would have loved to complement  her on her taste , anyway sarah came back in after and remarked what a beautiful  transwoman she was and how she was wearing  the most exquisite  perfume .....she was really  impressed  with her which says alot  because i think my friend is a bit transphobic , guess the only thing that gave ahint was her voice  she wasn't  trying  but it was femmine anyway .....
But there again i would have loved to engage  in conversation  ...but same thing did not want to make her feel uncomfortable. ..

Quote from: Amanda_Combs on October 28, 2016, 08:55:26 PMI would really love to be able to talk to another trans* person in real life and maybe be  able to gauge if I'm cis, confused, schizophrenic, or something else.  However, I just don't think there's a good enough way to do that. 

When I was first starting out, I sought out a support group to do just this.  It was tremendously helpful in sorting out my feelings and confronting my fears. 

Thanks to everyone who has replied. You have helped me process this experience.

A couple of things...

I had no interest in outing her, either privately or publicly. That would have been the farthest thing from my mind. Nor did I have any interest in some sort of trans-related chit chat or Q&A.

My desire to maintain a poker face was really (I think) about two things: First, not wanting to puncture her dignity by reacting in any way, and second, not wanting to let on that I know a whole lot more about the subject of gender identity than I would generally care to admit publicly. When faced with trans-related subjects or conversations, I completely go into self-preservation mode, lest I give away my little -- er, big -- secret. I'm very good at reacting and speaking like any (non-trans) LGBTQ ally might. But it's all an act, intended to carefully hide where I really am with the subject. (I know this is bad. I hate it. But I'm not in a position to come out, and I've been keeping this secret for so long that it's basically like muscle memory now.)

Next, I DID feel like my reaction was at least in part transphobic, and that disturbed me. Unlike some others, I was raised in a very open-minded household and had my first contact with the LGBT community (though it wasn't called that back then) before I can even remember. My parents were both in theater...need I say more? When I told them (about 30 years ago) that I was a crossdresser, they more or less shrugged and said, "We love you."

But still I have that gut reaction -- noticing, becoming self-conscious, feeling awkward -- even when I recognize that the other person has simply gone where I hope to go someday. It seems like I am hard-wired to react to anything outside the traditional social norms, even if I support and accept and understand what I'm seeing. Why couldn't I just react to her -- or NOT react -- like I would have with either of the other two women who flanked her at the check-in desk that day? I don't know the answer to that question, but I think such xenophobia may very well be hard-wired into our species. It hurts to find it within my own wiring. That feels like an important subject for the trans community to wrap its head and heart around. (Of course, I know this is not new.)

Finally, I think my experience is very instructive in how I would have to approach transition. What I find startling in others becomes a huge hurdle for me in transition, knowing that going about my everyday life would be causing these types of reactions in others at basically every turn. I shouldn't care what others think, but I do. I shouldn't. But I do.

I could never be passable, but I expect that people would likely try to avoid puncturing my dignity by suppressing their reactions like I did. After a while, this social mechanism could lead me to think that maybe I WAS passable, which would be mistaken. It's perhaps a harmless mistake, but with enough time it could lead to a level of self-delusion which would be ripe for a hard fall.

And I think this mechanism is at work a lot in our human interactions. I can think of other things that I might notice about someone else which would make me want to hide the fact that I had noticed in order to avoid treating them any differently or puncturing their dignity -- all while my brain is racing a mile a minute trying to figure out how to do that.

Sometimes I think I should go find a cabin in the mountains somewhere, where I wouldn't have to interact with people at all! It would be so much simpler...

Lora

A few weeks ago, I sat across another transwoman on the train. We instantly clocked each other, gave a faint smile and went about our business

i see a few everyday on the train to work and home. i clock them in my head constantly. i guess we spott certain ques that we know of in ourselves, little things i have never spoken to them. but admire their courage and self assurance. i start to analyze their outfits,makeup asses what may look good on me. noone else seems to notice.

growing up and thru my early adult years i was never phobic in any way. my family sure is all but one sister. very christian upbringing. i am thankfull for my childhood and household and my christian upbringing. it tought me good morals and guidelines for life and is the sole reason i am alive today. sure there are bad bits, but good ones too.

i suspect your issue and mine, is our own internal fears of the future and how we will turn out. i think all of this triggered in your mind and that you had your child with you. the self analyses of why you reacted in that way is a huge step in the right direction. like you i would love to go over and strike up a conversation with them. i sometimes wonder if they are lonely people who need friends as much as we do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

oh and i love too people watch [emoji41]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: translora on October 29, 2016, 12:58:42 AM

....
Next, I DID feel like my reaction was at least in part transphobic, and that disturbed me. Unlike some others, I was raised in a very open-minded household and had my first contact with the LGBT community (though it wasn't called that back then) before I can even remember. My parents were both in theater...need I say more? When I told them (about 30 years ago) that I was a crossdresser, they more or less shrugged and said, "We love you."

Lora

It disturbed me when it happened with me so I understand what you mean...I can't in all honesty totally blame my parents as we lived in the deep south of the South Island of New Zealand, TV started a 3pm and finished at 10pm, Electricity was still not guaranteed 24/7, Milk deliveries, etc etc So a very closeted place...not so much close minded or bigoted but just didn't know. I didn't know there was anyone else like me until I was given the book Conundrum by Jan Morris at about age 19 by my first therapist.

Liz

I used to be a bit like this, and I'd say those kinds of reactions are pretty typical for most of the general public.

It was when I got serious about transition that I began spending time around other trans people.  It's only when you sit with a large group of trans people and chat for a few hours - both about being trans, and also about life - that you realise that they are just boring, normal people.  That was a big deal for me - it cleared away a lot of the internalised transphobia that had been a barrier to transition.

I have only been living full time as a female for about 3 months, and have been on hormones for 12 months.  I can pass in public pretty well if I police my voice carefully.  My appearance is fine most of the time. At work, I need my brain to focus on business matters.  I can't maintain a female voice and participate properly in meetings.  So I don't bother right now.  Pretty much every one of the 1,000 people in our office knows I am trans anyhow.  It's only when I'm meeting with someone who didn't know me before transition that I make an effort with my voice.  And pretty much always outside work.

I see trans women in public from time to time.  Assuming I don't know them, I just mind my own business.  No one wants a stranger walking up to them and announcing the fact they clocked them - even another trans person.  I'm sure if they want to talk about their gender identity, they will bring it up.

Hope this helps!

Claire