Ok, as you get older your skin thins out.  The fat layer under the skin is thinner.  This is why the bony structure of the face is an easy place to spot age in a person versus more meaty areas.

Hormones has done wonders to my face, I am happy with my face currently and as much as I'd like to have FFS now to give me that extra little bit I really don't think it's worth the risk and the money and my face, for most part, passes very well.

I am 31 now, let's say when I'm 60, my face skin is likey going to be showing the bony structure of my face which while not incredibly masculine I do still have a recognizably male skull.  Is it a thing, is it worth it, is there a way to know if I should do FFS now and enjoy the benefits longer and also recover from a surgery easier with younger age?  Even if for right now I don't see FFS as a need?

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

Assuming you have the means, I think it's definitely worth it in the short term. As for the long term, you should check out Lynn Conway's discussion of living happily in stealth for decades, and getting FFS at age 61. I think it would support what you're talking about — but why not have three extra decades with it done and behind you and when you're young enough to recover more quickly anyway, and when the risk is as low as it will ever be?

Quote from: Michaela Whimsy on October 26, 2016, 11:31:31 AM
I am happy with my face currently and as much as I'd like to have FFS now to give me that extra little bit I really don't think it's worth the risk and the money and my face, for most part, passes very well.

I think you already answered your own question. 

I really don't see a reason to spend the time and money to get FFS if you are fully comfortable with your face as it is now.  There is no guarantee that you will be happy with the results of FFS.  And it's an awful lot of money and pain to spend on something for which you're not fully 100% committed to.  It's really not something you do casually "just because".

If you're concerned about how you might look as you age, you can cross that bridge when you get there.  There are many ways to help aging women look younger that don't involve FFS.

Does your face elicit any misgendering or dysphoria?  That's the question I ask.  For me, any misgendering and any dsyphoria was completely unacceptable, but that's me.

A friend of mine, almost completely stealth (except for a couple of long-term relationships, where she eventually regretted ever disclosing), transitioned in her twenties and it wasn't until she was on the other side of 50 before her bones started to become an issue.  And then FFS, and then it was a whole new ballgame.

I found facial surgery the most profound thing, but then my face was a constant source of dysphoria.  Once I understood the structure of my bones and what they meant, what they indicated, I couldn't un-know it, and so it was something I had to to, I just had to.  As soon as possible (which was in my early thirties).  And I have enjoyed the results ever since.

There's no right or wrong answer to your question.  I do think, though, it always comes down to dysphoria. I mean, that's what propelled us to take action in the first place, right?

Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 26, 2016, 05:47:38 PM
Does your face elicit any misgendering or dysphoria?  That's the question I ask.  For me, any misgendering and any dsyphoria was completely unacceptable, but that's me.

A friend of mine, almost completely stealth (except for a couple of long-term relationships, where she eventually regretted ever disclosing), transitioned in her twenties and it wasn't until she was on the other side of 50 before her bones started to become an issue.  And then FFS, and then it was a whole new ballgame.

I found facial surgery the most profound thing, but then my face was a constant source of dysphoria.  Once I understood the structure of my bones and what they meant, what they indicated, I couldn't un-know it, and so it was something I had to to, I just had to.  As soon as possible (which was in my early thirties).  And I have enjoyed the results ever since.

There's no right or wrong answer to your question.  I do think, though, it always comes down to dysphoria. I mean, that's what propelled us to take action in the first place, right?

Agreed, if there is any misgendering then I would recommend it.  People either pass or they don't, its black and white with no grey area.  I hate to hear girls say "I pass 80 percent of the time", that means they don't pass.  Its an all or nothing thing.  To me passing is being able to carry on relationships with people not know your birth gender. 

Quote from: Danielle11746 on October 26, 2016, 08:38:14 PM
Agreed, if there is any misgendering then I would recommend it.  People either pass or they don't, its black and white with no grey area.  I hate to hear girls say "I pass 80 percent of the time", that means they don't pass.  Its an all or nothing thing.  To me passing is being able to carry on relationships with people not know your birth gender.

I guess this is where my mind is too when it comes to passing.  I don't get misgendered in short interactions but I do not have that luxury when I'm standing in line somewhere for long periods or having a few hour conversation or something.  I couldn't go stealth and that option would be nice.  I'm not positive it is my face causing this though.  I get dysphoria from lots of things but my face is more of just a cosmetic worry than actual dysphoria (I do get dysphoric about the little bit of facial hair not yet gone by the laser and electrolysis).  I think after seeing other parts of me people see the male in my face but seeing my face first they see a female face but that might be partly due to having bangs and hair helping.  My avatar is me, no makeup, no filters, cellphone pic in terrible lighting.

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

I transitioned in my 30s and passed without surgery.   Things started to go south in my late 40s and I had Dr. Z do the bottom half and a facelift.   FFS is so expensive and time consuming I'd put it off until you need it done.   But only you can know that.

Quote from: Michaela Whimsy on October 26, 2016, 09:23:20 PMI guess this is where my mind is too when it comes to passing.  I don't get misgendered in short interactions but I do not have that luxury when I'm standing in line somewhere for long periods or having a few hour conversation or something.  I couldn't go stealth and that option would be nice.  I'm not positive it is my face causing this though.  I get dysphoria from lots of things but my face is more of just a cosmetic worry than actual dysphoria (I do get dysphoric about the little bit of facial hair not yet gone by the laser and electrolysis).  I think after seeing other parts of me people see the male in my face but seeing my face first they see a female face but that might be partly due to having bangs and hair helping.  My avatar is me, no makeup, no filters, cellphone pic in terrible lighting.

Having bangs and long hair helps in the short term, not the long term.  That's a nice pic, btw, but other angles (with your hair pulled back) would certainly help to see if there are actual concerns to have in terms of your bony structure.

More important, though, perhaps... How's your voice? 

All the facial surgery in the world won't keep you consistently gendered female if your voice keeps doing you in.  And, conversely, if your voice is impeccable, it can actually reverse an initial misgendering due to factors currently beyond our ability to address, like overall build. 

I am in a similar situation, except I actually do "pass" well. I believe, no one passes 100%, so in the definition goven above, no one really "passes" at all. Even if it is just a handful of people who will question this, perceive you as trans or ask you if you are trans. This happens to me - it happens on very very rare occasions, but I doubt anything could stop this. Some people just have an eye for some things. But I strive to minimize this and if just standing in a line or talking to someone for some hours will bring up the trans question, I would certainly go for surgeries that can change that.
I did voice surgery because that was THE biggest thing in the past years that led to those few occasions in a year where I was questioned or misgendered. It helped a ton.

But I also have these concerns about age and I totally get the idea behind that plan. I get some dysphoria from my face, I think sometimes people look at me oddly or look twice. I had some people turn heads occasionally. I believe this is called "soft read" or "soft clocking" - when people are not really sure, but they perceive something is maybe odd, maybe they are almost sure that you are trans but do not want to let it show... It is somehow bearable if I try not to think about it too much, but I am 42 now - What if I am 50 or 60 - I am not sure things will improve with time - experiences of others show that the opposite is true. So if I will have to get FFS with 50 or 60 anyways, I would also prefer to get it over with now and profit from having my 40ies with a face that causes no more dysphoria or double takes instead of living with this until it becomes too tough and only then get the surgery. The costs, risks, pain - it will all be the same in both scenarios (except that now my body is younger and may better take the surgery and heal better, also I now have the money - who knows what will be in 20 years).

I cannot give you an answer though as I am still considering this myself - what to do - pondering how certain the need for an FFS in 10 or 20 years is - or if I can deal with the dysphoria in a different way... To put it bluntly I am scared of this surgery and would prefer not to get more surgery, this is what keeps me from it.

TLDR; FFS is an individual choice, but age can make it more of a need.

Some people don't need FFS to live their lives, some do.  FFS was something rumored about when I transitioned in early - mid 1980's. (I'm 58 now) While I always hated my brow, it did not keep me from transitioning.  Youth affords exactly what you describe, great skin and facial fat.  At 40 I was still getting stopped on the street by people thinking I played on the local D1 college women's basketball team.  However by mid-40's wrinkles and fat loss made the underlying bone structure more apparent.  I used bangs and sports visor to hide my forehead for years.  Around 10 years ago I heard about FFS on a news show and started researching it in earnest.  I joined the Yahoo FFS group, a once vibrant community, and over a week read it in it's entirety, what a lot of information.  I started saving for FFS then.

Well, life moves on, FFS was not a priority.  However early last year I realized I had enough money to see one of the relative newcomers to FFS surgery.  I had consults with Dr Mardirossian and  Dr Rossi, contacted Facial Team, but they took 5 months to reply to my initial query.  I took the pictures the surgeons requested and sent them in.  These are the pictures we all cringe at, hair pulled back, no makeup.  Whoa, I looked old; wrinkles, sagging skin, huge brow.  I could see my father's face in mine.  :-(  Both surgeons recommended Type III, I decided on Dr Rossi, was there Sept 2015.  My thread is some pages back on this forum.

Thirteen months on I am happy with the results.  Not only does FFS deal with the results of my teenage testosterone years, but all the soft tissue work did wonder for my skin appearance.  I saw my sister at the beginning of Sept, I'd not seen her since before surgery.  My mother mentioned to me my sister commented about my appearance, so while we took our daily walk I brought up what I'd had done almost year earlier.  She said I looked great and younger too!

So get FFS if you want to, or don't.  I'm sure if you feel you need it in 20 years results will be even better than what is achievable today.

now my US$.02 soapbox

The "pass" word comes up a lot with us.  Someone else posted something about 80% passing is not passing, really?  I don't live in the femmy transgirl world, I live in the world of reality.  I know lots of cis women who get misgendered, my 5'11" partner of 17 years does.  My 82 yo 5'10" mother gets misgendered.  For decades my social sphere has been athletic, strong women, who can be very androgynous.  From my social peers I learned cis women deal with misgendering as an affront and respond in kind, therefore so do I.

Quote from: Michaela Whimsy on October 26, 2016, 11:31:31 AM
Ok, as you get older your skin thins out.  The fat layer under the skin is thinner.  This is why the bony structure of the face is an easy place to spot age in a person versus more meaty areas.

Hormones has done wonders to my face, I am happy with my face currently and as much as I'd like to have FFS now to give me that extra little bit I really don't think it's worth the risk and the money and my face, for most part, passes very well.

I am 31 now, let's say when I'm 60, my face skin is likey going to be showing the bony structure of my face which while not incredibly masculine I do still have a recognizably male skull.  Is it a thing, is it worth it, is there a way to know if I should do FFS now and enjoy the benefits longer and also recover from a surgery easier with younger age?  Even if for right now I don't see FFS as a need?

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

Quote from: deeiche on October 27, 2016, 07:46:08 AMThe "pass" word comes up a lot with us.  Someone else posted something about 80% passing is not passing, really?  I don't live in the femmy transgirl world, I live in the world of reality.  I know lots of cis women who get misgendered, my 5'11" partner of 17 years does.  My 82 yo 5'10" mother gets misgendered.  For decades my social sphere has been athletic, strong women, who can be very androgynous.  From my social peers I learned cis women deal with misgendering as an affront and respond in kind, therefore so do I.

What women do when misgendered can vary, depending on the woman, though I think all go for the same outcome -- to reverse the misgendering, to rectify and correct.  Lesbians, for example, may find it amusing rather than an affront, since being lesbian means playing against certain gender expectations in the first place, and of course there's the whole butch aesthetic that so many embrace as well. 

But what does it take to reverse the mistake?  Women speak up.  Whether in disdain or incredulity, I don't think it matters, because a confident voice itself is very powerful (yes, the voice itself must be confident), and then the questioner is put on the back foot and apologizing profusely. 

That's an interesting question! My personal feeling is that people tend to get more androgynous with age - women's estrogen levels drop, men produce less testosterone, and so old women and old men are a lot more similar to each other than young women and young men - so I'm comfortable with the idea that I might become a grumpy old woman who doesn't look especially feminine. I won't be *thrilled,* but I suspect by then I'll have bigger concerns related to being elderly.

(As for the inevitable passing arguments, my standard is whether I'm misgendered no more often than my 5'5" 36J wife who mostly wears unisex/men's clothes. So far, so good; we've both averaged about twice a year. I started a new job a few months ago, and while HR knew my background, nobody else there does.)

Being correctly gendered is a goal we all share.   It's a goal that some of us have a harder time achieving than others.  Fortunately, passing is not dependent on just one physical/behavioral attribute.  I've noticed that trans men tend to pass as men rather easily despite having feminine facial features and being below average in height.  It's amazing the effect that facial hair and a deeper voice have on a trans man's ability to pass.

The point is, each of us has to consider the whole package in deciding what needs to be done to be seen reliably as a woman by others.  Having a masculine bony skull and a deep voice are dead giveaways.  Other characteristics contribute: tall stature, big hands and feet, narrow hips, broad shoulders and chest, etc., none of which can be altered to increase a trans woman's chances of passing. 

I couldn't imagine myself passing when I finally accepted that I was trans and came out to my family late in life.  The thought of transitioning to live an authentic life seemed all but impossible.   Three years later, I'm perfectly satisfied that people perceive me as female.  The proof is in how people interact with me.  How was this possible? 

It wasn't one or two things, but rather the cumulative effect of realizing enough feminine characteristics in order to overpower those masculine features that I could do little or nothing about.  But, I learned that some things are more important than others.  People key in on your face, chest and voice when deciding your gender.   When I got these right, I could get sloppy with my makeup and dress and still be gendered female despite my decidedly male skeletal features.

We all learn how to rationalize and mask our masculine physical features.  You can mask a bony brow with bangs, assert that many women have large noses and deep voices, and select fashions that hide that stovepipe figure.  But, in my opinion, passing comes down to getting the face, chest and voice to look and sound feminine.  If those things can be achieved through surgery, I say do it, no matter what your age.  People will tend to overlook the rest.

Quote from: Clara Kay on October 27, 2016, 09:25:34 AMIt wasn't one or two things, but rather the cumulative effect of realizing enough feminine characteristics in order to overpower those masculine features that I could do little or nothing about.  But, I learned that some things are more important than others.  People key in on your face, chest and voice when deciding your gender.   When I got these right, I could get sloppy with my makeup and dress and still be gendered female despite my decidedly male skeletal features.

We all learn how to rationalize and mask our masculine physical features.  You can mask a bony brow with bangs, assert that many women have large noses and deep voices, and select fashions that hide that stovepipe figure.  But, in my opinion, passing comes down to getting the face, chest and voice to look and sound feminine.  If those things can be achieved through surgery, I say do it, no matter what your age.  People will tend to overlook the rest.

Yes, it's not rocket science.  Face and voice first, closely followed by chest.

Of these, however, I do believe it's voice that's most efficacious in reversing a misgendering.

Personally, I think it also helps to be unequivocally feminine on at least one of those three. I find that if I'm showing off 38DD cleavage, I don't have to talk to be read as female.

(A male voice or obvious beard probably would get a double-take, but "androgynous to feminine" on both would be sufficient - is sufficient for a good friend of mine who has thinning hair and is still early on HRT with slight facial changes, working on her voice, but was blessed with obvious boobs early.)

Quote from: deeiche on October 27, 2016, 07:46:08 AM
Some people don't need FFS to live their lives, some do.  FFS was something rumored about when I transitioned in early - mid 1980's. (I'm 58 now) While I always hated my brow, it did not keep me from transitioning.  Youth affords exactly what you describe, great skin and facial fat.  At 40 I was still getting stopped on the street by people thinking I played on the local D1 college women's basketball team.

Exactly - lol - even though it was some years later for me, in Eureope the topic of FFS was more a rumour than reality when I transitioned. And I was guessed to be 25 until I was 35. I was thought to be a teen on one occasion even. But closing in on 40, this rapidly declined, sadly.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 27, 2016, 08:04:35 AM
But what does it take to reverse the mistake?  Women speak up.  Whether in disdain or incredulity, I don't think it matters, because a confident voice itself is very powerful (yes, the voice itself must be confident), and then the questioner is put on the back foot and apologizing profusely.

Yes - and this is something where of course trans women often fail. We feel "clocked" or give those who misgender us some sort of bonus because we think of ourselves as second class women. Its hard to get out of this mentality and for me actually the voice itself makes a difference. Since it is a clearly female voice, if I react this way now, I feel confident that just speaking up already shows them they were wrong misgendering me, while previously I might not even have dared, fearing that if I speak up , my voice would just increase their wrong gender perception.

A friend of mine occasionally gets misgendered, she is a lesbian but she hates it and basically goes on a rant when it happens, telling the person who did it to go bleep himself ... lol

  here are some pictures of me for the sake of argument since the whole whether or not I pass came up.  I pulled my bangs back to show my forehead.  The dude pictures are from November 2007 and November 2010 just for a better reference of bone structure.   

My voice naturally is very deep, it is very practiced though and now I get gendered correctly on the phone/ walkie talkies/ drive through windows  75%.  When I say I don't always pass it is the second looks I am talking about the "soft clocks".  I never get gendered male anymore.  I just can tell people wonder at times.  I am 6foot tall and still 220 pounds.  The pictures in the rainbow shirt I took today I'm not wearing makeup in them.  I rarely wear makeup except for special occasions and normally wear tshirt and jeans.

Oh, and thanks for all the replies!  They do help!  Honestly I think FFS falls on the list of voice/trachea shave,  then GRS, then buy a new jeep, then FFS, in that order. 

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

Thanks Michaela, that helps!

You've got a benign chin, but you do have a bit of a brow ridge -- if you get FFS, that and rhinoplasty would make a big difference; they could also lower your hairline at the same time.  You wouldn't get any "soft clocking" double-takes after this.  In the meantime, keep wearing bangs. 

All that is assuming your voice gets into a typically female range, that is.  Voice should definitely be your first priority -- 75% success isn't bad to start with by any means, but 100% would be so much better, wouldn't it?  And again, I think voice is hugely important, especially when our faces aren't there (metaphorically and literally).  Thankfully, we can do voice work entirely for free.

I can't tell from the lighting if that's hair on your upper lip and chin -- obviously if it is, that's also a big priority.

Losing 50 lbs would also really help.

As always, YMMV depending on your dsyphoria.

Reminds me a bit of me when it comes to the weight issue. I have definitely much less soft reads since I lost weight. It really also affects the face a lot!

I think your hairline seems to be nice - but wearing bangs my be good because of some brow bossing, but it is not big. I personally would probably put a new car not in front of a FFS surgery, but then I do not really like to get new cars - only if I have to because my old one gives up.