So... This is the issue I'm having lately...

I've been working on removing the hair from my neck and chest lately, and even done it on my cheeks, but I've so far been avoiding doing that on my goatee area simply because I'm worried I might change my mind about this a year from now and suddenly wish I did grow a goatee, or pass as masculine in general, only to have completely destroyed my facial hair...

But I don't pass with that hair.  Actually, that and my voice are the only 2 things that are keeping me from passing easily at this point: I have a very feminine set of features, and look like a tall young woman.  The hair of my upper lip alone is so thick that I have a shadow there even if I wear multiple layers of foundation and concealer.  It's bothering me that I look in the mirror and am so close to seeing a pretty girl, but the mustache is ruining it.

Once again though, I'm afraid to actively go after the thing, because I'm afraid of all the stories I bear of people who transition, then change their minds, and regret not having facial hair...  I know I'm not as feminine as most MTFs: I'm barely in the female zone and not the agender zone on the graph.  I know I'll probably never be able to have the body I really want and pass completely.  I know that I'm going to have trouble in my career, even if I don't transition professionally.  I'm just completely unsure of this whole thing, and this is a permanent alteration to my face we're talking about here...

What do you all think?  What questions should I be asking?  What did you do to fix your facial hair issues and how do you feel about it now?

Go with what your heart desires. For me, i have always hated facial hair and even in my moments of doubt still wish i didnt have it. I dislike masculinity yet always fear being trans is a phase for some reason. Its a tug o war from what my heart wants vs what my brain says i need. Hope that helps some how. Stay strong girl <3

*hugs*

I can't really offer advice, but I'm in the same boat. I've had a beard for 10 years, and shaved it off a week ago (I'm still very new at this). I can't get rid of the stubble on my face, it's still noticeable immediately after shaving.

I'm not considering a social transition at this point, I'd be happy just going full-time at home. My voice and various hair issues (too much on my body, not enough up top, face stubble) are the things that haunt me when I try to relax and be me.

Permanent hair removal is becoming more and more tempting, but I know I'll want to regrow a beard if I even swing back to the other side. For me, I think it's just too early to know the right answer. The plan is to give it more time and see if I still think I'd ever want to go back to 'guy mode' after enjoying an authentic life. The more time I spend as female, the more I realize how much I hated wearing that mask for so long. I get the 'what if it's a phase?' anxiety too, but I'm starting to question that less with each day that goes by.

Here's to hoping the answers come in time!

I just took the plunge and had my first clearing done at E3K, and I already love how smooth the skin of my upper lip feels.  While permanent hair removal is essentially irreversible, there are plenty of men I know that can't grow a full beard or goatee, so it's not really a "point of no return."  You are going to know better than anyone what's right for you, but I think it provides a flexibility to potentially pass either way, should you end up wanting to express male, female or other ways of presenting yourself.  Good luck whichever you choose! 

L

Even though I have moments where I wonder if I am nuts to be transitioning, they don't last long.  All I have to do is picture myself back as my closeted male self, and I shudder with horror.  Now that I am free to dress as I like at home, there is no way I am ever going back there.  So far, I am okay with dressing male off our property just because it is what I am used to, but that is changing.  Yesterday, I was in the city, dressed as myself, and really liked how I looked and felt.  I could never hide that feeling again.

What I am getting at is to imagine how you would feel if you went back.  What would make you do that, and how would it feel?  Do you think you might ever go back in the closet?  Or would you go for some non-binary identity? 

When I thought about those options, the clear answer for me was "no way".  The woman inside me wants out.  You have to find what your answer is for yourself.

If you truly want to go forward, and if you truly have no reason to go back, it seems to me that it would be a mistake to keep an option open that you never intend to use, when that option prevents you going forward.

The usual rule of thumb is to start electro early on since it can take hundreds of hours to complete. LASER has helped to greatly speed up the process for some.

The flip side argument is that there are plenty of non or de transitioners who are happy never to have to shave again. Which begs the question: Why so infatuated with having the goatee?

There was a member of my support group who's entire adult life he had a beard. For about all his life he knew he was trans and wanted to be a woman. That option wasn't in the cards for him. We all know the drill. But the time inevitably came and he joined our group.

It was extremely difficult for this person to be there. He was maleness personified despite what his soul screamed. Like many of us he could not imagine in any way shape or form him being anything other then what he felt he needed to be. Like many of us internal pressures mounted, and he had to dare to push the envelope of self discovery.

He shaved. He freaked out. Like many of us he was hit with the overwhelming WTF Am I DOING blues as we upset the "Natural" order of things. As we upset the fortified walls and Hollywood facades built in order to hide that deep dark shame filled secret within.

Quote from: SailorMars1994 on October 30, 2016, 08:55:49 AMI dislike masculinity yet always fear being trans is a phase for some reason.

Yes, that is what I'm going through.

Quote from: EyesOpen on October 30, 2016, 09:17:09 AM*hugs*

*is fluffy*

QuoteI've had a beard for 10 years, and shaved it off a week ago.

The ticker in my signature starts on the day I shaved my massive handlebar mustache.

QuoteI can't get rid of the stubble on my face, it's still noticeable immediately after shaving.

I had to pluck my mustache hair after shaving just to get it to shave right: when you grow your hair out and groom it for a few years, the hairs get thicker and more rooted.  You should be better if you just do what I did: take a pair of tweezers and just start pulling them, starting with the biggest and blackest, and eventually you'll be down to peach fuzz for a while.

QuoteI'm not considering a social transition at this point, I'd be happy just going full-time at home. My voice and various hair issues (too much on my body, not enough up top, face stubble) are the things that haunt me when I try to relax and be me.

See... This can be a gradual process.  You don't have to go full-time immediately.

QuoteI know I'll want to regrow a beard if I even swing back to the other side.

Right... See... After experiencing a full mustache and even a pointy devil goatee, I don't feel like I'm going to want to do that again... I'm just not sure I'll want to lose the option for the next 50 years... :/

QuoteI get the 'what if it's a phase?' anxiety too, but I'm starting to question that less with each day that goes by.

I guess this is common: I've heard it before...

Quote from: Dayta on October 30, 2016, 09:44:32 AMI just took the plunge and had my first clearing done at E3K, and I already love how smooth the skin of my upper lip feels.

Yeah, I plucked all my hair a while back and it WAS nice...

QuoteWhile permanent hair removal is essentially irreversible

Hence the trepidation: it's one thing to grow tiny breasts on herbals and remove your neck and nipple hair, and another to remove your goatee region entirely.

Quotethere are plenty of men I know that can't grow a full beard or goatee

When I had no hair there, I was told I passed as Cherokee, which I am 1/32nd or something, so I guess it's not a full loss.  Would make me look younger anyway...

...neither of those would be a bad thing...

QuoteI think it provides a flexibility to potentially pass either way

,
You know... You're right about this... Maybe I should look at it as giving me one much bigger option instead of one less small one?  It'd certainly take down on grooming time in both modes...

Quote from: JoanneB on October 30, 2016, 10:00:26 AMThe usual rule of thumb is to start electro early on since it can take hundreds of hours to complete.

I know, and that's why I'm worrying about this right now, before I'm even on HRT...

QuoteThe flip side argument is that there are plenty of non or de transitioners who are happy never to have to shave again. Which begs the question: Why so infatuated with having the goatee?

See... I'm not... I guess I'm worried I might sometime in the future, but you're right, I really don't care for it right now...

QuoteHe was maleness personified despite what his soul screamed.

You know, it actually bugged me at how masculine everyone thought I was when I had the mustache and identified as androgynous...


I'm getting more convinced by the day that I should just take the plunge here and go through with it.  There's not a huge rush, so I have time to decide, despite how I'm freaking out.  I probably will soon, I just don't want to rush into permanent decisions like this lightly...

Quote from: PrincessCrystal on October 30, 2016, 10:43:49 AM
I had to pluck my mustache hair after shaving just to get it to shave right: when you grow your hair out and groom it for a few years, the hairs get thicker and more rooted.  You should be better if you just do what I did: take a pair of tweezers and just start pulling them, starting with the biggest and blackest, and eventually you'll be down to peach fuzz for a while.

Thanks for the advice! I'll give that a shot. It's crazy how dense and stubborn my facial hair is now. It was not at all like this when I first started to grow it out. I use an epilator from time to time on my legs, I guess gradually clearing out the facial hair with tweezers shouldn't be too bad...I hope

Quote from: EyesOpen on October 30, 2016, 12:03:08 PMI use an epilator from time to time on my legs, I guess gradually clearing out the facial hair with tweezers shouldn't be too bad...

Pluck in quick motions.  It gets easier as you get used to it, until it's more tedious than painful.  I did it in 30 minute sessions over a week, but now I'm good enough at it that I could probably do it in one session.

I've been planning on getting an epilator for my arms and legs... How does that do with ingrown hairs?  My hope is that I'll slowly whittle out the hair as hormonal changes take effect, and eventually have girlier hair there...

Hate to sound like i take pleasure in your uncertianty but it is a bit reliving to know i too am not the only one going through something similar. Doubt sucks, and like you i too had facial hair all the time. You had a handle bar mouctache (my spelling is horrid, sorry) and from 2010-2013 (age 16-19) i had a chinstrap and goatee. But i hated it (yet still kept it for god knows why) so saying good bye and going through hair removal (and still am) is no problem. Tbh, from the few posts i see from you PrincessCrystal i would have been none the wiser to guess you fear of the same i do, that this may be a phase and will go away. Im sorry you have this stuck in your head to

I was never able to grow a real mustache until I was about 20, and my whole life there have been patches on my face where hair never grew, so I could never grow a full beard.  Once in my life almost 20 years ago I grew a straggly Van Dyke for a few weeks, but that was as far as it got.

My health insurance won't pay for facial hair removal until I've been on hormones for six months, and that six month date is coming up on December 8.  Right now my biggest impediment to passing is the beard stubble.  Even if I shave close and cake on the makeup, I still can't get rid of that blue shadow on my upper lip.  The only other parts where the hair follicles are really dense are the soul patch and two little patches on the corners of my chin.

I really don't think I am going to miss my facial hair.  And at this stage "going back to being male" is already something that is never going to happen.  It is more like "continuing to be androgynous and be taken for male at work" than going back to anything.

But I did ask myself -- did I ever, under any circumstances, see myself intentionally growing any facial hair for the rest of my life?  and, would I ever intentionally go back to presenting male in the ways that I did before I started to transition?  And the answers kept coming back with a resounding "No!"  So there it is.

PrincessCrystal, you get euphoric when gendered female, and dysphoric when gendered male.  It is extremely unlikely this will change.  And if it does, you can certainly "go back" -- hell, you can take T if you want to activate new hair follicles somewhere down the line.  There are plenty enough lying dormant that you've never ever seen. Anything that's peach-fuzz vellus hair can become terminal given the right stimulus.

Quote from: PrincessCrystal on October 30, 2016, 10:43:49 AMI had to pluck my mustache hair after shaving just to get it to shave right: when you grow your hair out and groom it for a few years, the hairs get thicker and more rooted.  You should be better if you just do what I did: take a pair of tweezers and just start pulling them, starting with the biggest and blackest, and eventually you'll be down to peach fuzz for a while.

This is one thing you really should try to avoid, regardless.  Repeated plucking can distort the hair follicles, making them more difficult to treat, and creating unsightly ingrowns which will keep your skin in shadow until they eventually pop out.  Distorted follicles can also compromise the results of laser, leaving detritus near-permanently ensconced under the skin. 

Stop plucking. 

I say this as someone who plucked for over ten years.  My electrologist was very unhappy with me.

QuoteSee... This can be a gradual process.  You don't have to go full-time immediately.

I don't think it's wise to go full time until the beard shadow is gone, mostly for work-related reasons, but also just for making it easier to move through the world. And being quite sure of yourself as well.

QuoteI'm getting more convinced by the day that I should just take the plunge here and go through with it.  There's not a huge rush, so I have time to decide, despite how I'm freaking out.  I probably will soon, I just don't want to rush into permanent decisions like this lightly...

The only thing you really can't take back is SRS. 

Quote from: PrincessCrystal on October 30, 2016, 02:23:47 PM
Pluck in quick motions.  It gets easier as you get used to it, until it's more tedious than painful.  I did it in 30 minute sessions over a week, but now I'm good enough at it that I could probably do it in one session.

Haha, yes, I can imagine that it will take some time...

QuoteI've been planning on getting an epilator for my arms and legs... How does that do with ingrown hairs?  My hope is that I'll slowly whittle out the hair as hormonal changes take effect, and eventually have girlier hair there...

Epilators are tricky and, ultimately, disappointing in my book.

Tricky, because you have to get it juuust right or you'll have problems. Start on a low speed, go slow, and be ready for it to hurt. If you go too fast or aren't careful you'll just snap the hair off just under the skin and it *will* ingrow. Lower legs aren't too bad, thighs/chest/abdomen hurt a LOT. I've not tried it on my arms, but I imagine it'd be like the legs. It hurts the worst the first time you do it, but gets less painful subsequent times.

After trying it for a while, I just prefer shaving now. The disappointing part of epilators comes when the hair starts to grow back. The first time I loved it -- smooth as can be for at least a week. However, it starts growing back at different rates, so I re-plucked the hairs that grow back fast in about a week, but then I'm stubbly again in a day or two because now the more slowly growing hair is starting to reappear. So eventually I was epilating every 1-3 days anyway and said forget it -- I'll just shave.

I should mention that I have very thick, coarse, dark hair on my legs, and it takes me forever to epilate because they'll snap if I go too fast. If you have finer hair I think you're supposed to be able to epilate faster, in which case it might not be such a bad option.

I'm hoping that my leg hair will get a little more manageable after HRT :/

Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 30, 2016, 05:13:24 PM
PrincessCrystal, you get euphoric when gendered female, and dysphoric when gendered male.  It is extremely unlikely this will change.  And if it does, you can certainly "go back" -- hell, you can take T if you want to activate new hair follicles somewhere down the line.  There are plenty enough lying dormant that you've never ever seen. Anything that's peach-fuzz vellus hair can become terminal given the right stimulus.

Is that true even if you get electrolysis / laser? I thought they were gone forever from that.

QuoteThis is one thing you really should try to avoid, regardless.  Repeated plucking can distort the hair follicles, making them more difficult to treat, and creating unsightly ingrowns which will keep your skin in shadow until they eventually pop out.  Distorted follicles can also compromise the results of laser, leaving detritus near-permanently ensconced under the skin. 

Stop plucking. 

I say this as someone who plucked for over ten years.  My electrologist was very unhappy with me.

Good to know. Now I have an excuse to avoid going through the pain of plucking my facial hair

Quote from: EyesOpen on October 30, 2016, 05:31:41 PM
Is that true even if you get electrolysis / laser? I thought they were gone forever from that.

The hairs that are destroyed are permanently destroyed.  However, they only go after the terminal hairs.  Vellus hair (which we have in abundance) gets left alone (because it's practically invisible).  Now, with HRT/anti-androgens (and especially after SRS), the vellus hairs shouldn't get converted into terminal hairs.  But even then, some will turn as we age -- after all, the adrenal glands produce a bit of testosterone, and our hairs tend to be more sensitive.  If Princess changed her mind about all this, all it would take is getting on some T to kick-start facial hair growth. 

Now, sure, a beard (or goatee) after all that wouldn't be as thick as before, but it'd sure be enough to elicit male gendering, if that's what she was going for.  Hell, all kinds of women with facial hair face the same problem. 

Perhaps I am confused. However, in all the research I have done, it seems that Laser is not permanent. I have been told and read that electrolysis is the only method that truly kills the root.

Not to throw a damper on the cheaper hair removal but I was told by my electrolysis technician to never pluck face hair if you are planning to have electrolysis. I remember her telling be the details. I just took a mental note and don't do that.

I also found that shaving with a safety razor every day for a week helped me get pretty smooth before starting electrolysis.

Do what works for you.

Good luck.

With warmth,

Joanna

Living in my man suit, I shave closely each day (lift the hair, and using conditioner), being fortunate enough that any regrowth is slow.

Dysphoria rears its head should I let stubble grow, or (as I needed to, medically) grow a beard. Yuk.

Beards of any kind are not a requirement for 'masculinity' or passing, and as it is I'm considering facial hair removal under the guise of economic benefits long term.

Sno.

Quote from: Joanna50 on October 30, 2016, 11:30:37 PM
Perhaps I am confused. However, in all the research I have done, it seems that Laser is not permanent. I have been told and read that electrolysis is the only method that truly kills the root.

For some people, laser is permanent.  But for others, it's not.  It depends on your skin tone and hair color.  For example, I'm Korean.  We Koreans have very light skin and very black hair.  For us, laser is permanent.  I've done it, and they definitely do not grow back.

Quote from: EmilyMK03 on October 31, 2016, 12:20:26 AM
For some people, laser is permanent.  But for others, it's not.  It depends on your skin tone and hair color.  For example, I'm Korean.  We Koreans have very light skin and very black hair.  For us, laser is permanent.  I've done it, and they definitely do not grow back.

It also, like everything else, depends on operator skill, and there isn't as much research or schooling as there as has been with electrolysis, which has been around for a hundred years.

But yes, I know people who had great results with laser -- light skin, dark hair, but also not too much density.  Some thought they were clear and then it all came roaring back 6 months later -- but this, as with electrolysis, can simply be a new matrix of hairs being activated, or dormant hairs that were never picked up, or perhaps a technician who just barely missed making their kills.  If you have dark skin, or if you're blonde (I'm blonde) then it just won't work.

Electrolysis is the only method proven to kill any type of hair from any type of skin.  It's also a lot more expensive. 

I have to admit that I'm prejudiced against laser -- the technology itself scares me, as does the thought of using laser for skin resurfacing.  But so many people who fit the light skin/dark hair profile have reported excellent results, cutting the cost and time of hair removal, that I've recently had to adjust my position on this and say it really does make sense if you're a good candidate and can find a reliable operator.

Plucking screws to with hair-removal because it messes up the roots of the hair for a while, and starts the growth cycle from scratch.  This means that lasers don't have any root to hit and Electrolysis people can't find the roots to get to.  If you do it once, just to get old hair growing in normal, my understanding is that it'll be back to normal w few months down the line.

Anyway, I hit my goatee with the IPL for the first time on Monday, because I realize it's far more likely to bother me in 6 months than to become a serious regret later.  If I want a mustache again, despite hating the last one, a fake one will even affix better to smooth skin.

Oddly enough, I'm not sure IPL is working on my other hair, despite never plucking my neck hair.  I'm going to look into ant-oil and an electric epilator next, because I've been wanting to try that to thin the hair on my arms...

Still not entirely sure this is the best idea, but you girls have convinced me it's not the worst.  I DO know I'll enjoy cuddling in 6 months when I no longer have stubble scratching against whatever I rub my face against...