Quote from: Deborah on November 24, 2016, 02:51:07 PM
The debt has been climbing steadily under both parties since Reagan was elected.  Only one president since then has reduced the deficit and that was a Democrat, Bill Clinton.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

He never reduced the debt over either of his terms.  He just had a year or two of balancing the budget.

Facts are an inconvenient thing in politics.   He reduced the deficit and was showing a surplus before he left office.  http://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Quote from: Deborah on November 24, 2016, 03:49:31 PM
Facts are an inconvenient thing in politics.   He reduced the deficit and was showing a surplus before he left office.  http://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

OK, he had an annual surplus in each of 4 years instead of 2 years.  However the the total National Debt increased over his 8 years in office.  We were never debt free since before World War II.

http://www.truthfulpolitics.com/http:/truthfulpolitics.com/comments/u-s-federal-debt-by-president-political-party/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=friendly%2Blinks&utm_campaign=twitter%2Bfl%2Bplugin

I agree.  He shrunk the deficit.  Had it stayed as a surplus it would still have taken many years to eliminate the debt.  At this point it is such that I doubt it can be paid off.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

The national debt is actually debt accumulated because of the federal reserve. Of they ever audited the Fed they would find the debt is make believe and the country is in fact richer then the Fed let's on.

Not to offend anyone posting, but high testosterone levels are starting to show in this thread. 

Rather than argue, we, as a community,  need to learn put aside our differences and work together.  This divisive rhetoric will only serve to destroy us all.

FWIW...

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

Quote from: AngieT on November 25, 2016, 03:40:01 AM
Not to offend anyone posting, but high testosterone levels are starting to show in this thread. 

Rather than argue, we, as a community,  need to learn put aside our differences and work together.  This divisive rhetoric will only serve to destroy us all.

FWIW...

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

I can't agree more. The problem is liberals do not like conservatives and don't want to hear a conservatives side of the argument , it's either the liberal agenda or the hwy and that's it with liberals and that's why the transgender community fractured during this past election.

Actually Cheryl thank you I do hear and understand conservative viewpoints.

The trans and lgbt communities did not fracture over this election, lgbt as well as trans people voted for Hillary by margins in the 80-90% range.

I understand conservative viewpoints also.  I used to rail against Obama right along with everyone else because he was a Muslim born in Kenya.  I waited expectantly for the apocalypse and silently cheered the murder of abortion doctors. 

The thing is that I eventually pulled my head out of my fourth point of contact and stopped living in a fantasy world driven by supernatural conspiracies.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Both sides need to do that. Need to hear and truly listen to the other side. If they could start doing that it would be better for all of us and especially for the trans community. Hugs
Mariah

Quote from: cheryl reeves on November 25, 2016, 09:33:14 AM

I can't agree more. The problem is liberals do not like conservatives and don't want to hear a conservatives side of the argument , it's either the liberal agenda or the hwy and that's it with liberals and that's why the transgender community fractured during this past election.

Hi, folks.  I know there are a lot of nervous people out there.  There are folks who are frightened by what some individual politicians have been saying to get votes, in both major parties.  There are folks concerned about policies that various politicians have promoted, from a huge range of viewpoints.

Take a deep breath, and pause to reflect.

The US government system has a number of checks and balances by design.  Now, it often happens that the balance can be tilted a bit to one side or another, but again, by design, it is difficult to swing the system far out of balance.  That's where we, the people come into play.  When we see that imbalance developing, our job is to push back.  That's why we have a First Amendment right to freedom of expression.  When the politicians, executives, and judiciary all try to disappear up their own echo chamber, our job is to pull them back to reality.

Now, one faction in the recent election is claiming to have a 'mandate', in spite of having gotten just under half the popular vote.  We, the people, know that a mandate like that won't stick in the face of opposition.  It is the task of those opposed to any actions the 'mandate holders' take to let them know that not everyone is in agreement, that there is in fact disagreement with the 'consensus' within the echo chamber. 

All this has happened before, and all this will happen again.

The real danger to us, all of us, is surrendering our rights, giving up our freedom of expression to an authoritarian government in exchange for a promise of security of some sort.  That unbalances the system of government rather severely, and historically does not end well.  We have seen this happen in many nations over the centuries. 

Let's all learn from history, and avoid repeating those mistakes again.  Don't surrender your freedom of expression, and do not demand that others surrender theirs, or remain silent in the face of authority.

Now, everybody go take a few deep breaths, and try to communicate.  If you must debate, use facts and the truth, not truthiness and innuendo.  It works better, and it does one no good to have their argument shown to include misinformation or falsehoods.

Disclaimer:  I am a constitutional conservative social libertarian.  For the USAians reading this, it is very likely that none of those words mean what you think they mean. 

Quote from: AngieT on November 25, 2016, 03:40:01 AM
Not to offend anyone posting, but high testosterone levels are starting to show in this thread. 

Rather than argue, we, as a community,  need to learn put aside our differences and work together.  This divisive rhetoric will only serve to destroy us all.

FWIW...

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

I totally agree with you.  As controversial as the Obama elections were we never had this. Apparently conservatives  are more willing to accept what happens.

I have tried to reach out to liberal thinking people for years,problem is they only want their side heard and not listen to a conservative mindset,for when I hear their argument and then try to explain my side I'm labeled all kinds of nasty,i found with a lot of liberals there is no middle ground,it's their way or the hwy. I'm not heated up about anything. As for popular vote you take the cities out of the equation and Trump won in a landslide, this is because country folk got tired of being left behind,city thinking is not country thinking and the cities dictate the mandates for the state while rural people have no voice for they are shouted down by the majority with no middle ground. I live in rural Texas and have no problems for people here know I can handle myself. This is like my voice is always shouted down when I suggest that the T in lbgq separate and go it alone,i know we are a minority and the lgbq is the majority but sometimes there interest is not neccesarily our best interest but they need us for the votes. I'm always open to someone's opinion if they are open to mine.

Except for the effort, led by Trump, to have Obama impeached by creating a conspiracy that he was not a natural born citizen and was born in Kenya.

Or the constant drumbeat that he was not qualified to be president because he was a Muslim.  Another false conspiracy theory.

Or that Obama founded ISIS to overthrow the USA.

Or that Hillary has a squad of mob assassins killing off political opponents.

Yeah, Republicans were just peachy.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Deborah,

You tend to overlook and forget about all of the vindictive and unfounded charges which Hillary made against Trump. Her campaign speeches were total "Bash Trump" with very little substance about the issues.

I is now beginning to look like Trump is looking forward to unifying the country.

The country is way past ideological unification.  That ship sailed back in the early 1980s.

How America became a grudgeocracy

By Dan Zak

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/how-america-became-a-grudgeocracy/2016/11/25/c38f8832-adb6-11e6-a31b-4b6397e625d0_story.html

America, always an aspiring democracy, is now also a grudgeocracy.

The spirit of resentment is bipartisan, and it's everywhere.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Quote from: mac1 on November 22, 2016, 09:28:12 PM
I think he was the best choice of the two.  If either could do anything to reduce spending and control the debt he would have the best chance.  Also, I believe that he will be fair with equal standards for everybody.  So far he is showing his desire of trying to unite all sides.

Remember we survived 8 years of a strictly one-sided liberal agenda with no effort to obtain cooperation from anybody who had different views.  I am glad that we don't have to look forward to another 4 years of that.

There is no reason for the demonstrations and riots which have taken place.

We already had a President that controlled spending, and tried to unite the people, but we didn't trust him because he had black skin. Hillary while not the best choice at least has some experience. If your idea of controlling costs is reneging on your contracts, declaring bankruptcy and walking away scot free is your idea of someone capable of controlling spending, I've got swamp land for you to buy. Complete with everything that resides there. Snakes and alligators.  Notice how all the spending will be controlled via social services. Planned Parenthood will be eliminated, PP has several transgender clinics around the country. Social Security, although not insolvent, is hurting because Cons steal from the trust fund,to the tune of $2 trillion for wars and tax breaks for the rich. They then put it on the credit card and use those stolen funds "off the books". Three Republicans have raised the debt to the level it is at. Obama had to spend money to avert the worst financial disaster in our life time and the other side didn't want a black guy to get the credit for bringing us all the way back. I beg to differ that demonstrations and riots, are not necessary When your Presidential candidate suggests that Hitler was right by proposing the round up of 15,000000 people, reconsidering internment camps. also known as "concentration camps". Taking your right to an alternate lifestyle away because of bigotry and hate and a mistranslation of the Bible. When your President elect talks of using nukes for conquest, that is a very scary prospect. Just the cabinet members he has named contain more KKK members than any other Congress since the 1860's. When you start pepper spraying and firing on Native Americans . When your President thinks about giving his children spots in the government. Lastly eliminating the one thing that makes America great, tolerance. Tolerance for immigrants. The motivating factor for people coming to America heeding to the words of Ms. Liberty. Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free, I tell you giving up you first amendment rights to assemble and protest. If we ever give that up, we will be just like any other banana republic. With oppressed commoners and wealthy elites. I had an interesting conversation with Alyssia aka Just me here, from across the pond and I was impressed as she new more about our political position better than 90% of the other people I have been dialoguing with the last two years. Don't make your decision on her by looking at the youth in her face. This girl is Brilliant. with a big bold B. Before Reagan I was firmly middle class and I felt like it. Now that I have lost my retirement account, about to lose my Medicare and Social Security when all they have to do is raise the rate on people making over the $150,000 limit to fix it. Oh yeah, Obama care. I am frankly happy for the effects of Obamacare. I get all my needs taken care of at $500 bucks a month. I pay $10 copays but nearly every other aspect of my visits to the doctor are prepaid so aside from my monthly rate I have had $800 n out of pocket costs including the cost of HRT, Therapy, Speech lessons, an orchiectomy. And if your need is decided by your therapist GRS as well.  By not fighting,and since no one is listening from the other side we have to resort to other methods to be heard. Hillary has received over 2 million more votes than Trump. It is an out of date policy that keeps the majority from leading. The Electoral College was needed in olden times because of the horse travel time of the era. Today we know the results before you even leave the voting booth. Racism and Bigotry are never something you stand silent to. The last eight years have not been dominated by liberals because they have been taken out of the equation by Cons refusing to certify the current Presidents pick for the Supreme Court. Bad mouthing Obamacare and it was their idea created by the Heritage Foundation a rw think? tank. Taking away rights guaranteed by the Constitution such as "Promote the General Welfare" which by the way was the only thing mentioned twice in the Constitution, but it was never described because, well they thought we would understand. They did not foresee the perversion that is today's Republican Party.
No person suffering the effects of bigotry as is the Transgender community would ever, EVER. champion racism, bigotry and hate.  Just the recent comment that transgender restrooms would be too expensive. We seem to have the money to let one guy shut down the government to the tune of $25 billion. $50 million to prove false claims against the Clintons. That $25 billion could have easily provided unisex restroom assistance. This future President is promising more rights to be taken away than any of his predecessors. In fact I can think of only one instance where nationally one right taken away. That was Prohibition. And it was overturned. Hillary in over 30 years of trying has not been convicted of a single crime. In fact Trump wants to stop the proceedings for Hillary's supposed indiscretions because "She has been through a lot already" That statement proves it was a "Trumped Up" charge to alter the election results. No, Trump will not take it to court because there is nothing to convict her of. I will never join the Nazi party.

Quote from: DawnOday on November 25, 2016, 12:45:06 PM
We already had a President that controlled spending, and tried to unite the people, but we didn't trust him because he had black skin. Hillary while not the best choice at least has some experience. ...................

Spending Control: More than doubling the national debt by around 10 trillion dollars over 8 years. That has never happened before in history.

Uniting the people: If Congress wont do it my way, I will do it by Executive Order.

Electoral College:  It is still essential. Many states have still not fully certified 100% of their vote. Without it a dozen large states would control the elections leaving the 38 other states without a voice.

Responsibility: Blame Bush - Blame Trump

Experience: Obama only had 2 years as a junior senator.  Hillary failed as Secretary of State and had very little business experience.

How does uniting the people by executive order work?  That is simply authoritarian dictator language.  And you wonder why people are concerned.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

How do you fill a hole? By placing a sheet of plywood over it and calling it good? Or do you start at the bottom and fill to the brim and beyond, then tamp it down. That is why Obama had to spend $6 trillion of that was from Bush's final year in office and we finally put 2 wars, tax relief for the wealthy, and a drug program the benifits Big Pharma and nobody else. I can remember several dinners Obama had planned to get Con respect and cooperation. The Cons refused to come. Mitch Mcconnel said off the bat the goal was to make Obama a one time President. Obama has a 53% rating. Congress hovering around 9% do you suppose that is because they are cooperative. I remember when Obama pledged Hope and Change and when he tried to pass legislation and failed due to obstruction everyone made fun of "Hope and Change". Cons held Obama hostage over a pipeline that would benefit two people in particular and would employ only 50 long term, Yes there were 40,000 temporary pipeline jobs but turned down employment to 2 million others for infrastructure jobs. Obama has shown quiet leadership. He will be remembered as the Jackie Robinson of our time. The ability to excel despite racism and bigotry. I just wish the man were allowed to put more people to work. But Congress controls the money. With that in mind. With Cons running Congress. Obama cannot appropriate funds for anything. So the deficit is not Obama's but the result of a obstructive Congress, who allowed Bush free reign with the budget then had a come to Jesus realization that hey we are in deep dodo.  Obama as President can make all the EO's he wants that affect government workers. Regan used an EO to invade Grenada instead of sending the troops to Lebanon where 241 marines had just been killed. He recalled the 5th fleet and sent them to Grenada. Bush Sr. used EO's to invade Panama and liberate his Iran Contra drug money launderer Manuel Noriega.  Nobody complained of the 23 American soldiers that lost their life in the process. Cons are complaining that the government is corrupt, yet they are the ones controlling the purse. Refusing to act on legislation. Won't sign a war authorization which by the Constitution they are required to do. Con's are so inept that their lack of ability only highlights why the government in their eyes is failing.