Hey guys i already started testosterone from like 4 or 5 months and moved with my girl to an other city where no one actually knows i'm trans...i never thought that starting hormones will be that hard..don't get me wrong i'm so happy for that ..i never was happy like i'm now and i finally feel i'm me and everything is great from that side...the problem is nobody respect me as a man (people don't know i'm trans here) and i dont want them to know so they don't treat me diferentlly i just want to live a normal life like any other man...anyway i'm trying to make friends here in the new city i don't have no idea what to do or how to act around people in my whole life nobody teached me how to act like a man or treated me as a man before! i hear hurtful things everyday from guys here and not only them every man i know here think i'm a joke and calling me stuffs so i start to believe the problem is me cause i'm trans..they are guys here everybody respect them and there are half my size i can destroy them with one punch and people still respect them not me ...i really get so angry last night telling a guy here i respect u so do the same and he said and why i should respect you  u r a p**y and i have no idea why he said that i don't know what i should do to gain guys respect i go to gym and left weights and do my best but nothing is changing i'm not girly or something actually i never heard that but its just people think i'm not man enough....one of them here too (not in my work) we were friends for like two weeks and he started to treat me  too like and i'm less of a man we fought and he told me u r like bieber whatever u do u will never be a real man ( he don't know i'm trans) i'm so depressed ...the worse part is i told that to my girl and she said well i love you the way you are i felt like she is telling me they are right but i love u anyway....also that guy i knew for like a week told me you are not the way u look...people always in the first impression think i'm a tough guy cause of my style and cause i'm tall but when they get to know me they start to disrespect me and telling me i'm too nice and stuffs even in my relations with girls they tease me to see my bad side cause just cause i'm a guy they think i suppose to be some kind of way ...even a girl before told me (before i was in relation) she told me u r a guy you suppose to be dominant and its not atractive to be that nice and romantic...guys help me i don't have no idea what to do i feel i'm gonna lose my mind just tell me what i suppose to do and i will and so sorry for my english!!

When it comes down to men, it's the company you keep. When I was still male, I had much the same difficulty relating to men that you have do to my feminine nature and not being willing to play the macho game. The solution was to limit the males around me to those I was comfortable with and not call the others friends. If I needed to work with them, I kept our relationship co worker to co worker and used my mind and reason to keep it a work relationship. There were a few who barged in with bullying and I had to use physical force but fortunately it was limited. Women socialization is much freer than male socialization and it's one of the reasons I transitioned MTF. Even males associating with me now treat me somewhat different that they would have if I were male.

In short, you can't be friends with every male you meet but you can control the relationship at a level you are comfortable with. Pick your friends carefully and you will find that the better educated males tend to be easer to deal with than the ones who are not.

It sounds like you keep running into misogynist a*holes  . The men where I work treat me like an equal (they don't know I'm trans) even though I'm shy, fem and passive. It'll take sometime to find some people to hang around with. Unfortunately the gym tends to attract men who are into that fake macho bs too. Maybe you could look up social groups in your area?

And I'm sure your gf didn't mean it like that and just phrased her response poorly.

Sounds like you are being bullied, pheonix. Your style or whatever is attracting the wrong kind of people into your life. I don't know if it's just macho bs because you seem pretty macho; these guys seem to not respect you because you're not a BIG JERK like they are. Which means you are socializing with A BUNCH OF JERKS. Maybe try rocking a different style and hang out at different places and see if you meet a different kind of person? If you seem all tough you are going to scare away potential male friends who don't like to hang out with tough guys.

Do you have any interests (outside the gym)? You know, stuff you're passionate about where you could join a social club and meet others who share your passion?

Shorter: you're not a terrible person, so why pretend to be one? Go a new direction and make new friends.

I pretty much agree with everything else, but there's one other possibility. I think that even when you rule out the macho crap, men's relationships have a competitive aspect. If you don't respond correctly to it perhaps it could cause problems? I think I've got a bit of difficulty the other way.

Perhaps you are much more of a gentleman than those brutes. More times than not, a brute will think less of a gentleman, but that doesn't take away the power and strength of said gentleman; it merely makes him more unpredictable due to preconceived notions of inferiority. Use this to your advantage. They have an image of you in their mind that is incorrect. Smile about it. What they don't accept will hurt them. After reading your story, I found this article on the Art of Manliness website:

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2016/02/09/never-complain-never-explain/

It basically goes into why it's best not to complain or explain. That complaining shows weakness and explaining gives the other person power over you in some way. At least, that's how I interpreted it. As said by Dan Pena: "Let me see who you hang out with and I'll tell you your future." Don't give in to their stupidity. Of course you're a man. Just be the man you want to be and forget the rest.

A huge red flag is you asked him to respect you, and he blatantly REFUSED to respect you...on what grounds? That youre a pu**y? That right there is a huge red flag that he's an a-hole and not a decent guy, it doesnt matter what type of person you are, EVERYONE deserves respect.

I agree its the company you found, not the fact that you arent a good enough man. Trust that there are a lot of men like you so you arent the only one with a nice and wonderful personality, who isnt super masculine and dominant.

If you join any nerdy or LGBT groups you'll probably find more men like you

I work in construction. Even prior to that, I was expected to be a certain way for my fathers aproval and to an extent my mother. (She FREAKED OUT more than the ol man when I started wearing skirts, shaving my legs and painting my nails.) I was apparently 'less of a man' for being thin, having no interest in killing animals, or learning the inner workings of cars and the rules and players of every sports team. (Nor did I or will I have an obsession with pornography or going to the gym..) I prefer to surround myself with quality individuals over quantity. You cant blame men for the mouthbreathers even if the mouthbreathers seemingly are the majority. Us girls arent perfect either.

There's a lot of brinkmanship that goes on in male camaraderie. If you start "swinging it around", it will amp up rather quickly and get out of hand. Sometimes devolving into a fist fight. The way to avoid all of this is to not engage in bull#$it sessions that are clearly geared towards the "mine is bigger than yours" mentality. If you have no need to be Alpha, this is quite manageable. If on the other hand, you're easily triggered by this kind of behavior, you will find yourself in compromising positions quite often, particularly while engaged exclusively in the company of other men. Women in the room have a huge mitigating factor on this behavior as most men know that the whole neanderthal thing doesn't play well with them at all. But when it's a bunch of guys without adult supervision, all bets are off...lol. As an adult male, your masculinity is not judged by your machismo. Unless of course, you're keeping company with meatheads. I'd suggest you search for higher ground.

Brinksmanship is a good description.  Mostly, it's all about bluster in some groups.  You cannot show weakness or let on that what anyone says bothers you.  That's just an invitation for them to pick harder to get a larger reaction.  Most of the time nobody even means 90% of what they say anyway.  It's all just to get the reaction.

It took me a long time to learn that.  The best way to handle it in my experience is to not show when it's getting to you and to learn to aggressively dish it out right back at them.  This takes some people skills to know what and how much to say to get the reaction but not to go so far as to lead to a fight. 

It's actually kind of fun to think up outrageous things to throw at them to turn their comments around, like a boomerang.

I never saw any of this as machismo, at least not after I finished high school.  It was more just to avoid being the one that they could get at and to have some mental fun at their expense


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Sounds like you are giving away too much info of yourself to strangers. You say at first they think you're tough looking, but then you reveal something about you that makes them lose respect and the Bieber comment makes me think they think you're effeminate because of how you talk or what it might be you talk about.

This will be that you're engaging people more like a female, probably... that is - assuming people will have no reason to find your mannerisms, honesty or feelings effeminate because in a woman that is expected and encouraged. Not so in a man. It's a sign of weakness in a man, to discuss his vulnerabilities for example, or talk too much about feelings. Asking for respect isn't what will get you it out there.

Of course I don't agree that this is a good thing but this is the way of the world. Basically don't be so free with your feelings, opinions and especially that which makes you vulnerable or appear so. Even women respect men less when they do it too much, even if they were asking you to talk about your vulnerabilities. So be careful. Men keep a lot of things closer to the chest for this reason.

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on December 05, 2016, 06:51:53 PM
Sounds like you are giving away too much info of yourself to strangers. You say at first they think you're tough looking, but then you reveal something about you that makes them lose respect and the Bieber comment makes me think they think you're effeminate because of how you talk or what it might be you talk about.

This will be that you're engaging people more like a female, probably... that is - assuming people will have no reason to find your mannerisms, honesty or feelings effeminate because in a woman that is expected and encouraged. Not so in a man. It's a sign of weakness in a man, to discuss his vulnerabilities for example, or talk too much about feelings. Asking for respect isn't what will get you it out there.

Of course I don't agree that this is a good thing but this is the way of the world. Basically don't be so free with your feelings, opinions and especially that which makes you vulnerable or appear so. Even women respect men less when they do it too much, even if they were asking you to talk about your vulnerabilities. So be careful. Men keep a lot of things closer to the chest for this reason.

I'm inclined to disagree with this partly, because I've always found even while blending in, and playing the game of 'who's is bigger' and 'being one of the guys,' I would end up no less ridiculed simply because of my body type, or the food I eat, or the words I use being of a slightly higher vocabulary than the average hammer swinger or wrench turner, I guess the point I'm trying to get across is, even if you don't provide people with ammunition to isolate, exclude, and ridicule you, if they want to, they're still going to. Some people and some GROUPS of people, always NEED that one person to feed on, for their day to be complete. (Also I still can't see this as a largely male or female issue, as I've said before, even girls cliques like to keep around their 'DUFF' to get their jabs in.)

Then I suppose it means it's your company to blame, if it's not the tendency of people in general.

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on December 07, 2016, 06:25:47 PM
Then I suppose it means it's your company to blame, if it's not the tendency of people in general.

Essentially, yes. In construction, while not the majority, you tend to find a great many let's call them 'learned' individuals. While it's great to work in a field that isn't going to balk at my many piercings, weird haircuts, or tattoos, the downside (and in a way plus side) is they don't turn away anyone regardless of their intelligence or maturity level, and a great many even have criminal records. (More common in camp jobs.)

Back to the original post subject matter though, It's much easier to avoid on our own time because we can choose who we surround ourselves with, it's much harder on the clock. I personally don't think you're losing anything by not having the respect of a few mouth breathers.

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on December 05, 2016, 06:51:53 PM
Sounds like you are giving away too much info of yourself to strangers. You say at first they think you're tough looking, but then you reveal something about you that makes them lose respect and the Bieber comment makes me think they think you're effeminate because of how you talk or what it might be you talk about.

This will be that you're engaging people more like a female, probably... that is - assuming people will have no reason to find your mannerisms, honesty or feelings effeminate because in a woman that is expected and encouraged. Not so in a man. It's a sign of weakness in a man, to discuss his vulnerabilities for example, or talk too much about feelings. Asking for respect isn't what will get you it out there.

Of course I don't agree that this is a good thing but this is the way of the world. Basically don't be so free with your feelings, opinions and especially that which makes you vulnerable or appear so. Even women respect men less when they do it too much, even if they were asking you to talk about your vulnerabilities. So be careful. Men keep a lot of things closer to the chest for this reason.

I agree with this up to a point, but not really the last paragraph. But I agree with the first two paragraphs. If a trans guy didn't really grow up a tom boy type or in a particular environment where they're used to having to guard themselves, then its necessary for them to learn to be more aware of the type of guys they're interacting with at a given moment and to be a guarded in what they say. A big mistake is asking or telling them to respect you. Even if you want someone to respect you, you aren't going to be shown what to them is respect by asking them to respect you. To the type of guy that thinks "respect is earned," that comes off as "pu**y" to them (not that I like that word and nor do I think that of you, but its what they think).

All in all I agree with what others have said that these don't seem the sort of guys you wanna hang out with. But if its the case of having to work with them, then basically you need to change somewhat the way you are at work. Not necessarily to get along with them, but just let ->-bleeped-<- bounce off you. Reading you're post, I think you're showing them that you care far too much about what they think. As a kid who grew up getting bullied a lot and dealing with an abusive father, what always worked for me is learning not to react unless you know that you can effectively hit back aggressively, either verbally or physically. If you do it verbally then you need to know how to play that game, which I'm not sure from the sound of it that you do. And if it's at work its better just not to react to them. Otherwise just let it flow off you. Either ignore what they say, or if you can't ignore it then don't let them see that they've drawn blood, so to speak.

In the meantime, try to find some friends who you have things in common with and are more like you/share similar interests as you. If you have particular interests then go find some places to hang out where people do the things you like to do. There's no law that says you need to hang out with these douchebags. There are tons of cis men who are down to earth guys that have no interest in all the posturing. I guess it depends on where you live to, because that can dictate how likely you are to find those guys, but its your best bet. Find guys who share similar interests as you, but when dealing with douchebags then you have to keep guard up. Keep your interaction with them fairly brief and don't give too much of yourself away to them.

You should find a local LGBT place to socialize. Where did you run into that ->-bleeped-<- anyway?