Bit of an update.

I broke things off with my gf last week upon realizing that I truly am not bisexual and indeed gay. She knew I had feelings for a close friend and there would be chances I might end up with him at some very far off point down the line if he ever realized he's bisexual, but I know for a fact it's not gonna happen. I'm a sports guy. He and I have a working relationship athletics-wise and we have a strong bond through that. He sees me as a brother, regardless of my HRT starting only next week. He's not thrown by my feelings for him,but doesn't return them.

So, I'm at a point where I feel like an ->-bleeped-<- for putting my ex gf through so much pain after thinking for nine months that she had found her husband. I feel lost and completely at a loss for ways to explain to myself that I'm a gay man in a woman's body that will always have to be seen as kind of ''half and half'' since I'm not getting bottom surgery. I have about a million questions in my mind along the lines of the following, that gay men can take the liberty of answering here if they want, I  need the input anyway...

1 - Does it get easier to accept yourself on T? Bear in mind I don't hate my orientation; just feels like I got electroshocked emotionally. I've only dated males before my ex, only things feel different now that I'm going through my transition, perspective isn't the same...

2 - Can CIS men usually tell that you're trans or they consider you as CIS?

3 - How quickly do you admit to a CIS guy that you're trans when you start dating them?

4 - How do you get rid of the feeling that a CIS man dating you will necessarily be a ->-bleeped-<-?

I'm down in the dumps. Depressed as ->-bleeped-<-. Angry - and confused. I want to accept the fact that I'll often feel the kind of WTF reaction I'm getting seeing that the friend in question doesn't return my feelings, knowing that it's not personal, but also that he could've only worked with it if I had been a woman.

It sucks. Any feedback might help me feel better I think...

I'm not gay, but I feel like I can answer most of these and I hope it'll tide you over until someone gay can chime in.

1) Yes. Pre-T I primarily dated women and other transmen. I wholeheartedly believed that no one was truly straight or gay, and that everyone was some degree of bisexual whether or not they recognized it. But on T? Completely different. I realized that the masculinity I was attracted to in other transmen was what I wanted for myself, and not something that was actually sexually interesting to me. Once I got to a point where I was happy with my body, there was no "fog" surrounding my sexual orientation anymore. So in that sense, yes. I had a clearer picture of myself, a more well defined identity, and no more confusion.

2) Nobody knows I'm trans when my clothes are on, unless we've known each other for a long time. But YMMV. Some guys it takes a while to get to a point where you physically look and sound male, and where your mannerisms match. Strangers don't know I'm trans. People that have only met me after I started transitioning don't know I'm trans.

3) I did online dating for a large part of my early transition. I disclosed on my profile, and would mention it in one of the first few messages with folks to be sure that they'd read it. Now the dating site I would use has added trans categories to its gender system so it's right at the top and pretty unmissable. I would still mention it to people on the chance that they somehow missed it or didn't understand what it meant. Assuming you're talking about online dating. If it's someone you've randomly met and want to ask out, I would start by exchanging numbers, texting, and planning to set up an outing. Then I'd tell them via text before going out. It gives them time to call it off, you stay safe in case they take it poorly, and they can't claim that you never told them.

4) Stop seeing them as ->-bleeped-<-s. Everyone that is interested in sex, dating, partnering, etc. in the whole world has a type whether they will admit it or not. As long as they see you as a man, treat you as a man, and respect your wishes in terms of what is off limits with your body, I don't see it as a big deal that their type is a trans person. If it bothers you a lot, you could ask them why it is that they like to date trans people.

There are a number of gay trans men posting on the ->-bleeped-<- ftm forum right now so I would encourage you to start a thread there as well. Even if you only get a few responses it's good to encounter people like yourself.

There are a number of trans men in LTR with bi cis guys, including some who blog about it. But there are also trans guys integrated in the gay community. From what I gather it's normal to be upfront while flirting and before a sexual interlude begins about the "original plumbing". No, cis guys can't always tell. Especially if you get hairy and acquire a more masculine body shape. Some cis gay guys are bigots and some are open minded. I even saw a comic by a cis gay guy who talked about being "gold star gay" but had to open up his ideas about what his identity meant now that he's dating a trans man who hasn't had bottom surgery. I guess think about it this way, guys reject each other for sex all the time for trivial reasons and being trans is just one of them. Dan Savage once wrote about a guy in the bar scene who refused to pick up anyone who drank their drink through a straw!

Here's the thing about the gay community, it is a community of individuals. You could be rejected by someone for being too effeminate, as hypocritical as that sounds. So don't take it personally. The worst thing I think is those guys who aren't put off by a trans guy but want to keep it a secret because they're embarrassed in front of their friends to date a trans person. Hopefully that is less of a thing than it was 15 years ago.

I don't really have answers for you since I haven't been in a relationship in awhile, but I just wanted to say that I have a lot of the same fears and questions. One thing I will say, though, is that pre-T I could not stomach the idea of ever being in a relationship or sleeping with someone ever again. Every time men talked to me or showed any interest I felt horrified and disgusted and this is as someone who has always been attracted to men. Now that I'm eight months on T, even though I'm only now starting to pass and still have lots of dysphoria, I can actually imagine being in a relationship for the first time in years. I'm actually getting crushes on guys again (woah!). I mean, I'm terrified of everything, but I can actually imagine a future for myself, which is amazing. So I guess what I'm saying is don't discount the possibility that T will help more than you realize. I still have a long ways to go, I think, until I'd be comfortable actually trying to date or letting someone see me naked, haha, but it doesn't feel impossible the way it did before.

Quote from: Deano on November 23, 2016, 10:28:24 AM
1 - Does it get easier to accept yourself on T? Bear in mind I don't hate my orientation; just feels like I got electroshocked emotionally. I've only dated males before my ex, only things feel different now that I'm going through my transition, perspective isn't the same...

Yup! It gets a heck of a lot easier... but it does take quite a bit of time to get there. I understand how you feel because I felt the same way; I didn't feel confident to go back into the dating pool until I'd been on T for about 3 years. I felt very self-conscious & held back from dating until very recently.

Quote from: Deano on November 23, 2016, 10:28:24 AM
2 - Can CIS men usually tell that you're trans or they consider you as CIS?

They haven't got a clue.

After about 2 years on T I passed 100% as male, so the only way people know I'm trans is if I tell them. Except when the clothes come off, of course: there's an obvious difference in the underwear department that they can't help but notice. Which brings me to the next question...

Quote from: Deano on November 23, 2016, 10:28:24 AM
3 - How quickly do you admit to a CIS guy that you're trans when you start dating them?

I like to chat with them for a while to see how compatible we are. I get to know them, see if I like them, and then if I decide I'd like to get intimate with them, I tell them at that point... long before any clothes come off.

It's not something to 'admit' because it's not like I'm doing anything wrong or am guilty of something: I just say something like "Just so you know, my equipment is not what you might expect. I'm trans & I still have my original plumbing". I then answer any polite questions they might ask (not the rude ones: rude questions result in me saying that we're not compatible & good luck with their search for a suitable partner). We discuss what we're both OK with doing, and if it sounds good to both of us, then we're good to go. If either of us doesn't like what we hear, that's the end of that.

And of course, if I don't like a date enough to want to get intimate with him, there's no need for him to know my private business, is there?

Quote from: Deano on November 23, 2016, 10:28:24 AM
4 - How do you get rid of the feeling that a CIS man dating you will necessarily be a ->-bleeped-<-?

Here's the thing: there are very, very few ->-bleeped-<-s of trans men. Gay men don't tend to fetishise us in that way.

Most ->-bleeped-<-s fetishise trans women for a very specific reason (and one that leaves a bad taste in my mouth, personally): they're bi-curious but don't want to admit it to themselves. They're curious about having sex with a man but don't want to be 'gay' because they've grown up with a lot of internalised homophobia, so they specifically chase trans women with their original plumbing so they can 'have-sex-with-a-man-but-not-really'. 

There are far, far fewer gay men who're curious about having sex with women (and if they were they would've just done it because there's no social stigma attached to it) so they don't tend to fetishise our parts in the same way.

No, the overwhelming majority of gay (and bi/pan!) men who date us are awesome guys who see us as the men we are, and are happy to work with whatever equipment we have. After all, isn't that what dating's about? Getting used to a new partner; learning their likes and dislikes; finding out where they do and don't like to be touched; figuring out how to please each other? That's the same for all of us, cis or trans.

Quote from: Deano on November 23, 2016, 10:28:24 AM
I'm down in the dumps. Depressed as <not allowed>. Angry - and confused. I want to accept the fact that I'll often feel the kind of WTF reaction I'm getting seeing that the friend in question doesn't return my feelings, knowing that it's not personal, but also that he could've only worked with it if I had been a woman.

Yeah, maybe he could've only worked with it if you had been a woman. But could you?

I've been married for almost 20 years. I was willing to continue with our marriage, but my husband decided that he couldn't stay married to me if I transitioned. We were intimate a couple of times after I started my transition, and the more I accepted my masculinity the worse I felt about being intimate with someone who perceived me as being female. The last time we were intimate, I actually cried my eyes out. It was heartbreaking.

I've never felt that way since we broke up. Post-transition it's now it's an enjoyable experience and feels very right, because my partners now view me as male (irrespective of what's in my undies) and that's exactly how it should be.

FTMDiaries, this is all very encouraging! I suspect it'll probably be a few years before I'm comfortable dating again too. But very glad to hear that one's confidence/comfort does get better

I am effectively gay. Technically bi but I've never felt very comfortable dating women, so it'll always be men I guess.

Dating is such a minefield in this area I have pretty much avoided it. It's no trouble to accept being a (practically) gay male, but the issues people have with it has pretty much prevented me from dating again. I do have an existing partner, but we'll have to see how that goes. Badly for me, probably.

I have been in the same boat as you. I am certainly gay. I have tried everything else and it just doesn't work for me. I know sometimes when people who know that i am trans but do not know that i am gay find out, ask stuff like "well why didn't you just stay a girl then you could have any guy you wanted?" So i figure maybe you have similar things happen.. as for the T question I wouldn't know, I am not on T yet. However, you would be amazed how often people will not even question what gender you look most like even if you have a fairly feminine voice (like myself). I have had lots of CIS men and women thing i am also CIS until i speak otherwise, just because of how i dress, look, and how i have gotten my voice to sound. so maybe that will help. However, if i do become romantically or sexually interested in someone and they are also interested in me, I always tell them at the beginning so there are no surprises, because unfortunately this can often be a deal breaker. I know I am not answering all of your questions but I thought it may be good to hear from someone in a similar situation.