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Questions about HRT and DVT.

Started by Kadence1, December 14, 2016, 03:44:40 PM

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Kadence1

Hello all!! I was on hormones in the past for about 2 months and came off due to personal reasons. Anyways, I'm going back on in January (yay!!!) and just have some concerns. For some reason, I have always been terrified of getting DVT or hyperkalemia (too much potassium in blood caused by spiro.) It got to the point where I wouldn't eat anything high in potassium!! I would avoid potatoes and bananas with my life and would research foods before I ate them to check the potassium content. I don't have any health issues, and my endo always said I was just overreacting (I have a tendency to do that.) so, what are the chances of getting DVT and/or hyperlakemia?? What are ways to limit the chance of getting either or? Am I being too concerned?? Lol


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Dena

Out of the many people I am aware of who are on HRT, I have only heard of a couple who have had to deal with DVTs and one is currently posting about a flight right after FFS. As long as you are properly monitored the risk seems to be minimal. People who self medicate run a higher risk of that and other problems so we don't recommend self medication on the site.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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laurenb

I can't speak for DVT but I can say that my Potassium came in very high prior to me getting prescribed (which was a couple days ago now). Of course I assumed I was hyperkalemic with kidney failure and about to die. I saw my GP and she said not to worry because my Creatinine and BUN were good and historically within bounds. I'm a vegetarian so many high potassium foods are my staples and I'm NOT going to start eating meat again. Anyhow, she asked if I fasted the day of the test. Not really, I was munching on nuts a couple hours before. I retook the test and back in range - no worries. They know to check it when I go in. Neither my endo or GP were terribly concerned.

We know that Spiro is potassium sparing and that's what can lead to Hyperkalemia. Back when I was thinking about herbal HRT, I like others looked at Licorice. Estrogenic but has a side effect of raising blood pressure and hypokalemia (too little K). Licorice is not a good HRT solution. But I found a paper published about a trial of Spiro users who were given Licorice to reduce the side effects of spiro.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17113210

I can't get at the full text version so I don't know the impact on serum K but maybe someone here has Elsevier access.

Anyhow, my two milligrams worth ....



 
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Ms Grace

If you smoke, don't...that is the major issue with HRT and blood clots. Ask your endo about non synthetic estrogen as the bio identical stuff is better for you. As long as your diet is low in saturated fats and you do some exercise, even walking, everyday and avoid long periods of sitting you should have no issues. If you are concerned speak to your doc and/or endo.
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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DawnOday

I have had heart disease all my life but found out to what extent in 1993 when it was discovered amongst other things I had a deformed heart valve. I have been on blood thinners for 25 years. Vitamin K is the clotting factor in blood. High k, thicker blood. Vitamin K comes from green leafy vegetables. If I were to drink a glass of green tea I would be in very real danger of clots. Before I went on HRT my case was reviewed by the GP, endocrinologist, cardiologist and here I am four months later without any indication of a difference in circulation. If you have doubts, a baby aspirin a day will help keep the blood thin. Of course consult your doctor but based on my experience the type of estrogen you are prescribed has more to do with DVT than the fact you take estrogen.
Dawn Oday

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First indication I was different- 1956 kindergarten
First crossdress - Asked mother to dress me in sisters costumes  Age 7
First revelation - 1982 to my present wife
First time telling the truth in therapy June 15, 2016
Start HRT Aug 2016
First public appearance 5/15/17



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Kadence1

Thanks for all your answers guys!!! Definitely makes me feel better. I was and will be prescribed estradiol.... the little blue pills. I usually took them sublingually. Is that the bio identical kind?


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Dena

Those are the ones I take and they are the real thing. The cost should be almost nothing because estradiol is a natural chemical and can't be patented so several companies produce it. At the correct store 180 pills should run you  about $20.00.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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Ellement_of_Freedom

My doctor told me DVT is a real concern. Even though it has happened to less than 1% of her patients, anything more than 0 is too much. This is why we opted for the estrogen implant, which means less estrogen taken orally; less risk of DVT.


FFS: Dr Noorman van der Dussen, August 2018 (Belgium)
SRS: Dr Suporn, January 2019 (Thailand)
VFS: Dr Thomas, May 2019 (USA)
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Vanora

Quote from: Dena on December 14, 2016, 04:08:25 PM
Out of the many people I am aware of who are on HRT, I have only heard of a couple who have had to deal with DVTs and one is currently posting about a flight right after FFS. As long as you are properly monitored the risk seems to be minimal. People who self medicate run a higher risk of that and other problems so we don't recommend self medication on the site.

What do you define as properly monitored? I haven't seen any endos order expensive testing for various clotting factors and other things that might help project who might have a clotting problem. 


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Dena

Regular physical, blood work including liver function, estradiol and total estrogen. Clotting factors are important if there is an history but if estrogen levels are within reason, clotting factors may not be needed. It used to be clotting test required massive amounts of blood to run so the weren't often done. I am not sure of what the test requires today but the doctor should have a pretty good idea what your risk factor is and run the required tests.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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KayXo

Quote from: Ms Grace on December 16, 2016, 03:08:17 PMAs long as your diet is low in saturated fats

A 2016 study found

Food Nutr Res. 2016 Sep 27;60:31694.

"Our results do not support the association between CVDs and saturated fat, which is still contained in official dietary guidelines. Instead, they agree with data accumulated from recent studies that link CVD risk with the high glycaemic index/load of carbohydrate-based diets. In the absence of any scientific evidence connecting saturated fat with CVDs, these findings show that current dietary recommendations regarding CVDs should be seriously reconsidered."

CVD = cardiovascular disease

Ann Intern Med. 2014 Mar 18;160(6):398-406.

"Current evidence does not clearly support cardiovascular guidelines that encourage high consumption of polyunsaturated fatty acids and low consumption of total saturated fats."

Am J Clin Nutr. 2010 Mar;91(3):535-46.

"A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD."

CHD = coronary heart disease

BMJ 2013; 347

"An influential Swedish health organisation has recommended a diet that is low in carbohydrates but not low in fat for people who are overweight or obese or have diabetes.

The advice from the Swedish Council on Health and Technology Assessment is the result of a two year review of 16 000 scientific studies of diet. The recommendation contradicts the generally held belief that people should avoid foods that are rich in fat, especially those high in saturated fat."

Am J Clin Nutr. 2016 Feb;103(2):356-65.

"The association between saturated fatty acid (SFA) intake and ischemic heart disease (IHD) risk is debated."

"During 12 y of follow-up, 1807 IHD events occurred. Total SFA intake was associated with a lower IHD risk (HR per 5% of energy: 0.83; 95% CI: 0.74, 0.93)."

"In this Dutch population, higher SFA intake was not associated with higher IHD risks."


Regarding clotting, a few things worth mentioning:

- bio-identical (estradiol or estradiol valerate) is much safer and if taken non-orally, the risk is negligible and may even REDUCE.

ORAL

Exp Clin Endocrinol Diabetes. 2005 Dec;113(10):586-92.

"Sixty male-to-female transsexuals were treated with monthly injections of gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist (GnRHa) and oral oestradiol-17beta valerate for 2 years to achieve feminisation until SRS."

"Two side effects were documented. One, venous thrombosis, occurred in a patient with a homozygous MTHFR mutation. One patient was found to be suffering from symptomatic preexisting gallstones. No other complications were documented. Liver enzymes, lipids, and prolactin levels were unchanged."

1 incidence out of 60.

Estradiol levels ranged from 325-1183 pmol/L, at 12-24 months.
Average age was 38.37 yrs old (SD 11.36).

J Sex Med. 2016 Nov;13(11):1773-1777.

"CSHT in the United States typically includes estradiol with the antiandrogen spironolactone"

"A retrospective chart review of transgender women who had been prescribed oral estradiol at a District of Columbia community health center was performed."

"The primary outcomes of interest were deep vein thrombosis or pulmonary emboli."

"From January 1, 2008 through March 31, 2016, 676 transgender women received oral estradiol-based CSHT for a total of 1,286 years of hormone treatment and a mean of 1.9 years of CSHT per patient. Only one individual, or 0.15% of the population, sustained a VTE, for an incidence of 7.8 events per 10,000 person-years."

Journal of Clinical & Translational Endocrinology 2 (2015) 55-60

"Other compelling data suggest that the incidence of venous thromboembolism (VTE) among transgender women appears associated with the presence of a hypercoaguable risk factor, including the use of an especially thrombogenic estrogen (ethinyl estradiol) which is no longer used [3]. Gooren et al. (2008), reported no increase in VTE among 2236 male-to-female (MTF) transgender individuals on HT from 1975 to 2006 compared with controls, with the exception of those who used ethinyl estradiol, for which there was a 6-8% incidence [4]."

NON-ORAL

Fertil Steril. 2010 Mar 1;93(4):1267-72.

"Standard MtF cross-sex hormone therapy at our department
includes transdermal 17ß-estradiol (...), oral
cyproterone acetate (...), and oral finasteride (...) and is reduced
to the administration of transdermal 17ß-estradiol (...) after sex-reassignment
surgery."

"Activated protein C resistance was detected in 18/251 patients (7.2%), and protein C deficiency was detected in one patient (0.4%). None of the patients developed VTE under cross-sex hormone therapy during a mean of 64.2 +/- 38.0 months. There was no difference in the incidence of thrombophilia comparing MtF and FtM transsexuals (8.0% [13/162] vs. 5.6% [5/89], respectively)."

"VTE during cross-sex hormone therapy is rare. General screening for thrombophilic defects in transsexual patients is not recommended. Cross-sex hormone therapy is feasible in MtF as well as in FtM patients with aPC resistance."

Biochem Pharmacol. 2013 Dec 15;86(12):1627-42.

"There was no increase in VTE risk with the use of transdermal estrogen, even in patients with pre-existing thrombophilia [15]."

Cancer. 2005 Feb 15;103(4):717-23.

"Patients with prostate
carcinoma progressing after primary hormonal therapy received TDE"

TDE = transdermal estradiol (high dose)

"The mean (+/-95% CI) serum estradiol level
increased from 17.2 pg.mL (range, 14.8-19.6 pg/mL) to 460.7 pg/mL
(range, 334.6-586.7 pg/mL)."

"No change in factor VIII activity, F 1.2, or
resistance to activated protein C was observed, whereas a modest
decrease in the protein S level was observed. CONCLUSIONS: In
patients with APIC, TDE was well tolerated and produced a modest
response rate, but was not associated with thromboembolic
complications or clinically important changes in several coagulation
factors.
"

Median age of patients was 75 (49-91).

J Urol. 2005 Aug;174(2):527-33; discussion 532-3.
Transdermal estradiol therapy for prostate cancer reduces
thrombophilic activation and protects against thromboembolism.


"Levels of VIIa and XIIa were unaffected by transdermal estradiol therapy. Although levels of TAT III were increased in some patients at 12 months, the increase was markedly less than that observed historically with equivalent doses of oral estrogens. Levels of the inhibitory and fibrinolytic factors including protein C, protein S, APC-R, TPA and PAI-1 remained stable. Reductions in F1+F2, fibrinogen and D-Dimer levels represented a normalization from increased levels to the physiological range."

"These results suggest that transdermal estradiol reduces thrombophilic activation in men with advanced prostate cancer, and protects against the risk of thrombosis."

Prostate 1989;14(4):389-95
Estrogen therapy and liver function--metabolic effects of oral and parenteral
administration.


"Oral administration of synthetic estrogens has profound effects on
liver-derived plasma proteins, coagulation factors, lipoproteins, and
triglycerides, whereas parenteral administration of native estradiol
has very little influence on these aspects of liver function.
"

Synthetic estrogens = estrogens that aren't bio-identical

- DVT, regardless of estrogen, will also inevitably occur, sooner or later, in a population. Cause and effect can only be established once it occurs more often than expected.

- Consider that pregnant women have levels as high as 75,000 pg/ml of estradiol and yet their risks of DVT are only 0.1% and risk of pulmonary embolism is 0.01%.

I'm not a doctor and I only report what the research has found.

I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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DawnOday

Ask the Doc for a Protime test. It will test your clotting factors. If needed the Doctor can prescribe warfarin to thin it out.
Dawn Oday

It just feels right   :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss:

If you have a a business or service that supports our community please submit for our Links Page.

First indication I was different- 1956 kindergarten
First crossdress - Asked mother to dress me in sisters costumes  Age 7
First revelation - 1982 to my present wife
First time telling the truth in therapy June 15, 2016
Start HRT Aug 2016
First public appearance 5/15/17



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KayXo

My doctor tests my clotting times every time. Thankfully, they are normal, despite very high levels of estradiol, in the 1,000-4000 pg/ml range. :)
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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Vanora

Quote from: Dena on December 17, 2016, 10:49:10 AM
Regular physical, blood work including liver function, estradiol and total estrogen. Clotting factors are important if there is an history but if estrogen levels are within reason, clotting factors may not be needed. It used to be clotting test required massive amounts of blood to run so the weren't often done. I am not sure of what the test requires today but the doctor should have a pretty good idea what your risk factor is and run the required tests.

Thanks, I want to read up specifically on the clotting tests.


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