So I went to the local outdoor outlet mall today (temps in the low 40F/6C range) and for Northwest Indiana, on 24 Dec, I'll take it.

But as I walk around I see a lot (all?) of woman walking around wearing clothes that are non-feminine such as baggy sweatshirts, lose jeans, sneakers (tennies), lose coats/jackets, little or no makeup.  The only way to tell that they are woman is typically face structure, hair and maybe for the well endowed breasts.

Okay so here's my confusion or question.  When I go "full-time" without wearing non-casual clothes (tight, w/jewelry, make-up, heels...) what's to clue people in that I should be gendered Female.  This is a strong argument for FFS I think.

When out in casual clothes, I try to do something to clue others in as to the proper gender.  A couple tweaks are easy.  With my old casual summertime look, I've worn straight leg jeans and a fitted or rouched top, something to provide curves and distinctly feminine, such as my old tan colored Banana Republic 3/4 sleeve shirt. I may use a padded underwire bra for an extra oomph there.  I'll definitely do my makeup, and be wearing the right hair to provide additional gender cues.

I don't have the facial structure as a cue, obviously, and if I don't want to be misgendered, I need to provide some cues for others to tip the visual appearance to what I prefer to be seen as. I can do this with casual but carefully chosen clothing and cosmetics.


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I just grew my hair long.  That works most of the time, or at least leaves people unsure.  My voice betrays me though. :-(


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Denise..you get it..something my two transwoman friends have seemingly been unable to grasp; that women don't actually dress like Barbie dolls or hookers in normal life.

Most women wear androgynous clothing when not forced to "dress up" for work or a formal event.

Most women want to be comfortable and the women in my life..everyone I knew, wore jeans, T-shirts, and jogging shoes as a rule-only grudgingly putting on more formal clothes when they had to. Few wore make up, or if they did for work, you could barely tell

However, they almost all wear woman's jeans, T-shirts, and even running shoes, although younger girls in the "grunge" mode do sometimes wear boy's T-shirts.

In my case, as a partial transmale, before I knew what I was, I often deliberately shopped in the men's clothing section, but I was following instructions in the "Dress for Success" book that advises women to buy men's clothing because it is
1. much better quality, lasts three times as long 
2. is usually half  the price of woman's clothing
3. is usually almost identical to women's clothing, and men's wear is acceptable in women's fashion

At one point, fitted jeans began to annoy me and I switched to cargo pants, then to making my own custom clothing with all the comfort, durability, and ease of movement I wanted for rock climbing, hiking, and horseback riding, while still seeming to be "woman's" clothing.

Quote from: Denise on December 24, 2016, 03:22:14 PM
So I went to the local outdoor outlet mall today (temps in the low 40F/6C range) and for Northwest Indiana, on 24 Dec, I'll take it.

But as I walk around I see a lot (all?) of woman walking around wearing clothes that are non-feminine such as baggy sweatshirts, lose jeans, sneakers (tennies), lose coats/jackets, little or no makeup.  The only way to tell that they are woman is typically face structure, hair and maybe for the well endowed breasts.

Okay so here's my confusion or question.  When I go "full-time" without wearing non-casual clothes (tight, w/jewelry, make-up, heels...) what's to clue people in that I should be gendered Female.  This is a strong argument for FFS I think.

Hi Denise,

The psychosocial cues, for lack of a better term, are figure, face (including makeup, jewelry, and hair), and voice, including pitch, resonance, intonation and mannerisms.

When I saw this thread I thought it would be about something much different - what legally, or at least practically, defines "full-time"?  I think about this a lot because of the RLE requirements by insurance companies for SRS coverage. I am now "full-time" with regard to my work and social life. But if I want to see my kids, I have to dress in a gender-neutral fashion or my family will freak out.  Am I "full-time" or not?    I can't accept that just because I am not wearing makeup and high heels, I am not "being female".

My legal identity (driver's license, passport, SSA) says I am female, so in my opinion, I am female 24 hours a day, regardless of what I am or am not wearing. That's my story and I'm sticking to it, lol!

Quote from: Raell on December 24, 2016, 04:47:02 PM
Denise..you get it..something my two transwoman friends have seemingly been unable to grasp; that women don't actually dress like Barbie dolls or hookers in normal life.

I don't dress like a hooker or a barbie doll, but I am the most feminine-looking girl at work. One woman even told me, "you're raising the bar for the rest of us".  It's an R&D/weapons production facility for the Navy.  Women there, and there are not many of them, typically wear jeans, t-shirts, and little or no makeup and jewelry.  I always come in with full-makeup, feminine but practical clothes, and appropriate accessories, like earrings, bracelets, etc.

I do it to make it as easy as possible for people to gender me correctly.  I transitioned at work, after being there over two years, so people always knew me as a guy.

This is a typical look for me at work:



Nothing glamorous, but decidedly feminine.

~Terri

You do realize wearing jewelry around machinery is dangerous. Most safety experts warn people not to even wear wedding rings to work because of the number of people killed because of them. Same for long, loose hair that can get caught in moving gears.

I learned to never wear jewelry even while horseback or motorbike riding..nearly got killed myself for the same reason.

Quote from: Raell on December 24, 2016, 07:39:10 PM
You do realize wearing jewelry around machinery is dangerous. Most safety experts warn people not to even wear wedding rings to work because of the number of people killed because of them. Same for long, loose hair that can get caught in moving gears.

I learned to never wear jewelry even while horseback or motorbike riding..nearly got killed myself for the same reason.

Thank you for pointing that out, but I do not personally work near heavy machinery.  There is a very pronounced safety culture at the base, and appropriate PPE must be worn at all times - lab coats, gloves and eye protection for lab workers, and overalls, powder hats and eye protection at production facilities.  Nearly all production machinery is operated remotely via cameras behind thick concrete walls.  It's the thing to do when mixing hundreds of pounds of high explosives.

~Terri

Quote from: Maybebaby56 on December 24, 2016, 05:26:46 PMThe psychosocial cues, for lack of a better term, are figure, face (including makeup, jewelry, and hair), and voice, including pitch, resonance, intonation and mannerisms.

Yeah, this is basically it, Denise.

So, a very good reason to have facial surgery (and electrolysis complete). And a great voice.  Boobs help, and long hair.  It's also advisable, for winter casual, to pick out a feminine winter coat -- something with a bit of color to it, or a fitted waist if you can pull it off.

Women wear all kinds of clothing. They honestly don't think of their gender when dressing comfortably. Before I came out I wore lots of hoodies, but now I can't because I will get misgendered. Hats are the same way. Women wear baseball caps all the time and can pull them off.

I think full time simply means you are making a conscious effort to pass as female and live as female every day. This could be enturpreted as "in the public eye". It doesn't mean that you have to constantly have perfect makeup, perfect hair, or the most feminine outfit.

Speaking from my experience... I work in a very male dominated workplace. The first two months of my full fime, I wore nothing but jeans and a cute top. Sure, my profile, with my breasts and hips all said that I was trying to appear female, but my clothes where not overly feminine. I was so afraid to look over the top.

As the months pass I get a little more lax. Cis-females do the same thing. They have bad hair days, makeup nightmares, unconcerned days... they happen. So no one expects, the longer they see you as trans or female that you will look perfect everyday. That is just unreanable. Took me a while to realize that my hair wasn't that frizzy when I had a couple flyaways. I used to stress about leaving the house if my hair wasn't perfect. Girls simply do not do that.

I may have strayed from the topic but, be you!! If that means jeans and a cute top or skirts and heels then do it. Over time you will see what is right and most importantly what is practical!! Enjoy the ride and learn as you go!! All girls do!!

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I think especially in winter face from the front, hair style from the rear, overall walking style all come into play. The current fashion of skinny jeans and flare leg makes it easier. Current cuts of jeans taper along the upper thigh which is definitely different than men's jeans.
I had a guy glance at me the other day as I came out of the dressing room trying on jeans. His glance caught at my feet and legs but his facial expression went to very much surprise when his eyes got up to my face. I wasn't trying to pass just be me.

I kinda thought it was funny. 

I agree that FFS is a very helpful thing. Definitely on my wish list.

"Full-time" is a very subjective and personal thing.  It's whatever you consider it to be.  I'm not "out" at all (no feminine clothing), but HRT has done a lot of work and very few look at me and think "guy..."  I think a lot of people are hard on themselves and will always think they need more, but I do not think FFS is necessary for most people unless they would like a little touch-up.

I was in a support group once where a young, fully-transitioned, trans woman made the point, "Transition is about becoming more comfortable with your gender presentation."

That made sense to me.  In a nutshell it's why we do what we do.  It's a trial and error and getting used to what feels right process for sure.

How other people react to it? That's all about them.

Quote from: Jane Emily on January 03, 2017, 03:38:57 PM
I was in a support group once where a young, fully-transitioned, trans woman made the point, "Transition is about becoming more comfortable with your gender presentation."

That made sense to me.  In a nutshell it's why we do what we do.  It's a trial and error and getting used to what feels right process for sure.

How other people react to it? That's all about them.

Jane, I agree with you. But in a lot of cases we just want to fit in to social norms and to be accepted.  People in general, I'm sorry to say, tend to avoid those who don't fit in.  I'm not quite sure how to put that. 

I would rather not be a double take.

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FFS and a boob job worked for me. I dress up nice for work but when I am on my own time and, for example, going to a Walmart, I want to blend in with the people of walmart  so I don't wear makeup and just slip on some sweatpants and a t-shirt.

I own absolutely zero 'sexy' clothes, just maybe one little black dress that all women have in the closet for those holiday parties.

I look at RLE as no longer having a "duel identity". That is it's not so much related to clothes or makeup etc. It is about making sure you are able to live and function in a new gender role.

I'm about 8 months into my RLE, have come out to my entire social circle, and try my best to interact in the world as Female.

Now, there are days like today where I didn't sleep at all, it's the day before electrolysis (on a new growth cycle nonetheless). My hair is crazy and I am wearing tshirt and jeans.
Used my airbrush makeup to matte down the few dark hairs I have these days and threw on some blush to color correct.

Basically the type of day that sucks to be out in public during transition.

But.. you know what? I'm still presenting as Brooke. I'm at the allergist right now, and the staff knows I'm trans, and no one in the waiting room cares or notices.

So what's full time. For me it's about being my true self. I am a woman. I'm also a trans woman. Sometimes the trans shows more then I'd like- but I'm still me and I'm still living my life as Brooke.


Hugs,
~Brooke~

As Brooke said, it's just me being me.  No more double life, no more uncomfortable cross dressing as the assigned gender, just me.

Bad hair day, 3 days of growth prior to electrolysis, no makeup, it's still me.  I'm here, and I'm not going away.

I don't care if my face looks like heck, or if HRT hasn't done that much yet.  I am me, full time, all the time, and I don't have to go back into hiding any more.

Wait for FFS?  Wait for hormones to magically alter a half century of testosterone poisoned bones and cartilage?   I know better.  I could not stand hiding any more.  I HAD to move to being myself full time. 

I'm here.  I'm obviously trans.  Get used to it.


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Love this thread! All my clothes are womens. My hair is long, I carry a purse, and wear jewelry. My voice is male, my ID is male. My identity is non-binary. Am I  full-time?

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 03, 2017, 07:06:17 PM
Love this thread! All my clothes are womens. My hair is long, I carry a purse, and wear jewelry. My voice is male, my ID is male. My identity is non-binary. Am I  full-time?

Hugs, Devlyn

Of course you are.  You are full time YOU, not ducking into hiding.

You always have your gender presentation lined up with your gender identity.  That's all being full time really is.


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Quote from: Michelle_P on January 03, 2017, 07:33:18 PM
Of course you are.  You are full time YOU, not ducking into hiding.

You always have your gender presentation lined up with your gender identity.  That's all being full time really is.


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Amen! What is this hiding that you speak of? The word is foreign to me. 

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 03, 2017, 08:21:03 PM
Amen! What is this hiding that you speak of? The word is foreign to me. 

Hugs, Devlyn

It is the way of my people.

When we are among those who do not accept our existence, we 'hide' by cross-dressing, dressing against our gender identity and pretending to be something we are not so as to not arouse suspicion and wrath among the natives.

Selah!


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