Hi.

I have been thinking and observing a bit lately and I noticed that FFS focuses on a very specific set of procedures defined by Dr O 20 years ago. This is
forehead (target is to make it as smooth and well rounded as possible, no brow bossing, lifted eyebrows)
hairline (target is to lower it, especially at the temples)
jaw (target is to make it less angled)
chin (target is to make it smaller and V shaped)
and maybe nose (target is to make it smaller and slightly curved)

But I see a lot of women who have one or several of these features to some degree but it seems to make their faces more interesting, not less female. Of course in them it is not as masculine as it is in some trans women, but for those of us who have only slightly masculine features or are in an androgynous range, it is similar. One women on TV for example is Anna Torv, who played in a series on TV I love to watch.

Now I wonder why the face of these women still registers clearly "cis" while for those of us who are in a more androgynous range, it still may be perceived as "trans" or in our own eyes even as masculine?
What other features of the face do play a role that are not usually adressed by these standard FFS procedures? I wonder for example about the proportions - shape of the eyes - width of the face or length of the face  - position of the eyes within the face.

The thought behind this is, that I tried to imagine what I would look like if I had some of these standard FFS features done and come to the conclusion that the changes would be subtle and the face overall might still look simiar and may thus possibly still be perceived by me as too masculine. So I wonder if these features adressed by FFS are really the only ones - of course if they are expressed very masculine, it is a good thing to adress them and fix them, but I saw some FFS results where those "big five" (hairline, forehead, nose, chin, jaw) were done and the face is female but still looks a bit different from "cis" - which is still a great leap forward for those who really had a masculine face before and thus is celebrated rightfully. But I wonder what else there can be?

Dr O / Deschamps-Braly also measures your facial features in millimeters, looking at the length of the upper lip and the distance between your brows and hairline among other things for example. I have photos on Google that are separated and categorized by facial recognition - when I sort them automatically all of the pre-ffs photos fall under my old name and all of my post-ffs photos fall under Mia. So there is obviously a pretty major difference even though you may not be able to see it clearly at first.

In my opinion, along with those measurable aspects that distinguish women from men, I think there is also facial fat distribution (which gives the rounder "feminine" features) and way softer, smoother skin that will come following electrolysis, estrogen and better skincare habits.

Well yes ok, I neglected lip lift, which is also a typical FFS surgery - and deals with the distance from lip to nose. The chin surgery deals with the distances from chin to lip and the ratio of upper lip to chin... the hairline advance deals with that distance from eyes to hairline... not sure about the distance between brows - how that could be changed.

I saw that Dr Norman van der Dussen also does this whole thing about measuring ratios and distances in the face - I am not sure what he would do about them though, just as i am not sure how Dr Deschamps used these measurements - I kind of think that in the end they will still do the typical FFS procedures , or do they have additional procedures in store?

I read somewhere, that some surgeries are done to shape and tilt the eyes differently and another one to reduce with of the face by reducing some muscles at the side of the head. But those seem exotic to me.

Yes, many attractive women have certain slightly masculine features (just as many attractive men have certain slightly feminine features), but the key word there is "slightly". I'm not sure what you see as masculine or even epicene in Anna Torv's face, but consider, for example, women like Jodie Foster and Jennifer Aniston who have somewhat square chins. They're nowhere near George Clooney or Jay Leno — or me, pre-FFS — and they have a bunch of other very feminine traits to offset their slightly masculine ones.

I don't think that FFS is really restricted to a small menu. Cheek implants are also common in FFS as is work on the eyes such as blepharoplasty. Some even do ear work, and that's not to mention tracheal shaves. I mean, what's left? That covers pretty much the entire face.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on December 28, 2016, 03:33:55 AM
Yes, many attractive women have certain slightly masculine features (just as many attractive men have certain slightly feminine features), but the key word there is "slightly". I'm not sure what you see as masculine or even epicene in Anna Torv's face, but consider, for example, women like Jodie Foster and Jennifer Aniston who have somewhat square chins. They're nowhere near George Clooney or Jay Leno — or me, pre-FFS — and they have a bunch of other very feminine traits to offset their slightly masculine ones.

Yes of course not like George Clooney - lol - I was talking about more slightly expressed features.
Here is visible what I mean - look at the ridge over her eyes and her hairline

It is not as visible with a fringe [lol, thats almost a pun as the pictures are taken from a show with that name] as in this picture, but this in turn emphasizes a bit her chin/jaw


As I said - its not strong - but its there. Her nose is straight and not curved, so that does not offset those features - so what does?

Again, of course this does not relate to anything those who have Geoge-Clooney features needing those fixed - I agree that in more severe cases there is no way around that, but I am thinking now - partly selfishly - about those who do not have such strong features, where FFS would have only a slight effect. I have seen some of "us" doing FFS anyways - sometimes it looks better, but sometimes it is barely noticeable despite all the big surgery - the official FFS-listed features are corrected then, but the face looks still similar and if there was some masculine perception, it sometimes persists since not much has changed.

Frankly this is why  I think about this topic - I heard of a few who already looked good and "passed" well but still had FFS because they saw "a man in the mirror" - but could not get over that mirror thing despite FFS of these features. So I wonder what else there is.

QuoteI don't think that FFS is really restricted to a small menu. Cheek implants are also common in FFS as is work on the eyes such as blepharoplasty. Some even do ear work, and that's not to mention tracheal shaves. I mean, what's left? That covers pretty much the entire face.

Yes, I am aware of these of course, but I think cheek implants are rarely needed - trach shaves of course make sense when there is something to shave, but that was now not part of the facial perception I am talking about. Blepharoplasty on the other side may be a thing that is one of those little things that may give some change outside of the common FFS procedures. Especially if it is capable of changing shape or tilt of the eyes? Is ist not true that the tilt of the eyes is a bit of a gender marker?

The angle of the jawline is oblique, not square.  Notice the rather small distance between the angle and the ear.

The distance between the bottom of her chin and her mouth is 62% the eye/mouth distance, a Phi ratio. 

She has a very short upper lip.

The distance between the top center of her hairline and her eyeline is the same as the distance from her eyes to her mouth. This eye/mouth distance, her "midface," is not long to begin with. 

While she does have very slight bossing over her orbits, visible from the previously shown 3/4 shot, the overall shape of the forehead in profile is a curve from eyebrows to hairline.  In particular, there's no significant protrusion of the glabella. Though the eyes are hooded, they aren't buried in shadow.



Torv has a wide mandible, giving her a slightly rectangular cant to her face.  But the chin is still neatly tapered, with the bottom barely as wide as her nose.  And the whole effect is muted by her strong high cheekbones.  She still has a small mandible, relatively speaking.

Her hairline is round.  Even that bit of recession at the temples is rounded in back, not pointed.

Her nose isn't curved in profile, but head-on it's very thin at the bridge, which opens up the eyes.

And then of course there's no beard, long hair, and great skin.

-------------------------

Torv has predominantly feminine features -- jaw angle, chin tapering, upper lip, hair, and skin are all definitely female. Though slightly androgynous, her forehead and hairline still tilts femme.  Her nose is neutral.  Only the width of her mandible reads masculine.

We don't actually neurologically process faces in such piecemeal fashion.  We see a gestalt, an overall shape, which gets compared to prototypical understandings of faces deep in our brains.  Just like hearing a voice -- there are overlapping "bell curves" if you will when it comes to gender and the closer a face or voice is to the peak of one curve or the other, that's what determines how gender is assigned.  It isn't a matter of being perfect, and no one feature is "necessary" -- rather, it's having sufficient features that matters to gestalt processing.

Which is why, I think, FFS is most striking when as many features as possible are addressed.  Each one may be slight, but out in the real world everything is taken together. 

The only feature that isn't addressed by the current battery of FFS procedures is shortening the midface.  See, even a lip lift doesn't change that.  Changing the midface takes shortening the upper jaw, which in turn would require adjusting the lower jaw to then appropriately fit.  This is called "double jaw surgery," I believe, and it's very intensive, generally only performed to correct severe problems with the alignment of the upper and lower teeth.  It isn't, in other words, considered a "cosmetic" procedure, and requires very specialized orthodontic training.  But there are women will long faces, and they still get read as female, because most of the other features aren't generally masculine in proportion. 

Quote from: Sophia Sage on December 28, 2016, 08:42:55 AM
The angle of the jawline is oblique, not square.  Notice the rather small distance between the angle and the ear.

The distance between the bottom of her chin and her mouth is 62% the eye/mouth distance, a Phi ratio. 

She has a very short upper lip.

The distance between the top center of her hairline and her eyeline is the same as the distance from her eyes to her mouth. This eye/mouth distance, her "midface," is not long to begin with. 

Well yes, the angle of the jaw is not very strong, but in some of the pictures I saw on google, her chin seems larger - in others its less so - not sure why. I think a key feature may indeed be that her midface is not so long and her upper lip is short

QuoteWhile she does have very slight bossing over her orbits, visible from the previously shown 3/4 shot, the overall shape of the forehead in profile is a curve from eyebrows to hairline.  In particular, there's no significant protrusion of the glabella. Though the eyes are hooded, they aren't buried in shadow.

Well, during the show, it struck me several times that she has from various angles and in certain lighting some protusion of the brows and also a bit of a sloped forehead. Of course none of this is really strong. I never meant to say that. I do compare it to myself and my features in that area are not that strongly masculine either, I try to figure out why this looks masculine on my face and not so much on hers. Specifically because I think , FFS sometimes sort of makes a feature very feminine to compensate for other features and then it can look a bit odd - if I imagine her without that slight brow bossing and with a completely rounded and smooth forehead - would it look good or would it look odd, as it sometimes does with FFS?

QuoteTorv has a wide mandible, giving her a slightly rectangular cant to her face.  But the chin is still neatly tapered, with the bottom barely as wide as her nose.  And the whole effect is muted by her strong high cheekbones.  She still has a small mandible, relatively speaking.

So strong and high cheekbones are a positive feature - I am glad to know this - no need to change that, then.

QuoteAnd then of course there's no beard, long hair, and great skin.

Yeah ok, I assumed this is something that shoud be dealt with independently from FFS and preferrably before doing FFS anyways.

QuoteWe don't actually neurologically process faces in such piecemeal fashion.  We see a gestalt, an overall shape, which gets compared to prototypical understandings of faces deep in our brains.  Just like hearing a voice -- there are overlapping "bell curves" if you will when it comes to gender and the closer a face or voice is to the peak of one curve or the other, that's what determines how gender is assigned.  It isn't a matter of being perfect, and no one feature is "necessary" -- rather, it's having sufficient features that matters to gestalt processing.

Which is why, I think, FFS is most striking when as many features as possible are addressed.  Each one may be slight, but out in the real world everything is taken together. 

Well this is what I worry about a bit after looking at some of the FFS post OP pictures. I sometimes see this - actually not that rarely, that some fetures are feminine when looked at individually, but the overall impression is odd. Sometimes this seems to come from that woman doing only forehead and nose and no chin and jaw work, so the jaw after that looks more masculine in relation and thus the overall impression is giving a bit of a mismatch in the brain - as if the brain would expect a different Jaw and chin or a different forehead. But sometimes the description says that all the big five have been done and I still have that impression of something mismatching. It can be even worse if some features are very strongly feminine. Which is why I wonder if there are some features of the face not adressed by the usual FFS procedures that create such a mismatch in the perception - and what can be done about it - either thy also have to be changed if possible, or maybe the other features are bette rnot changed - or not changed too much into the feminine?

That double jaw surgery sounds drastic. But maybe you are right and it is something that can really do something for the proportions

I used to think that the perception of the face (or a person overall) is sort of a mathamatical sum of all the features that are dimorphic to some degree and in that calculation of course a very feminine nose and forehead would totally compensate a masculine jaw or a longer face - but I am not so sure it works that way anymore. It seems to me rather that it can be too obviously artificial if some features are strongly feminized while there are still any features left that are not as feminine - even those who are not changeable with normal FFS. Its a bit like putting on a short skirt and high heels works great if one has an overall feminine appearance and body shape , but will look very odd if there are too man masculine features still present in a trans woman. Which is why I sometimes believe it is actually more beneficial for the gender perception of a trans woman to not dress overly feminine - it sort of matches up better while a frilly short pink dress emphasizes the things that are not "feminine enough" to match this ensemble and then the perception of it becomes one of "this is odd".

Not sure if  made this clear, it may be unconventional.

I agree, the whole face needs to be considered, including certain physiological limitations. So, it starts with the midface, which in general isn't going to change.  And then there's the mandibular canal, where the mental nerve resides -- the position of that can't change, which determines what you can actually do with the lower jaw.

So I do think it's a matter of doing everything in proportion.  Like, if you have a very long midface, a tiny nose with a deep curve to it isn't going to work as well.  But narrowing the nose (particular at the bridge) and straightening it could work wonders, bringing out the eyes and cheeks.  Likewise, you wouldn't take down the chin too far, or it makes the midface look even longer.  Same thing for lowering the hairline too much.  (But transplants to fill in recessed corners should be higher on everyone's list.)  And if you're reducing the vertical height of the chin and hairline, it makes sense to do a lip lift as well. 

I think mandibular work in general is the most difficult to get results from, aesthetically speaking. 

Quote from: anjaq on December 28, 2016, 12:51:25 PMI used to think that the perception of the face (or a person overall) is sort of a mathamatical sum of all the features that are dimorphic to some degree and in that calculation of course a very feminine nose and forehead would totally compensate a masculine jaw or a longer face - but I am not so sure it works that way anymore. It seems to me rather that it can be too obviously artificial if some features are strongly feminized while there are still any features left that are not as feminine - even those who are not changeable with normal FFS.

Looking at Torv again, she's got one masculine feature, a couple of androgynous ones, and the rest are firmly feminine.  This makes her striking. 

Most women, however, are not striking.  Better to look at ordinary women than TV stars. 

Quote from: Sophia Sage on December 28, 2016, 02:36:33 PM
So I do think it's a matter of doing everything in proportion.  Like, if you have a very long midface, a tiny nose with a deep curve to it isn't going to work as well.  But narrowing the nose (particular at the bridge) and straightening it could work wonders, bringing out the eyes and cheeks.  Likewise, you wouldn't take down the chin too far, or it makes the midface look even longer.  Same thing for lowering the hairline too much.  (But transplants to fill in recessed corners should be higher on everyone's list.)  And if you're reducing the vertical height of the chin and hairline, it makes sense to do a lip lift as well. 

It is sad that most FFS surgeons seem to rather let you pick your own procedures and then just do it like a wishlist. But of course they would loose customers if they would say "if you do this, we also need to do this and that which costs in total double of that one thing you came for".
So it makes sense to maye try in a consultation to talk about these connections, proportions and all that and see if something is said about it or not - to see if the adhere to these principles or if they just "atomize" the process and do each part individually depending on how much masculine it is by itself...

QuoteLooking at Torv again, she's got one masculine feature, a couple of androgynous ones, and the rest are firmly feminine.  This makes her striking. 
Most women, however, are not striking.  Better to look at ordinary women than TV stars.

Well. I guess it makes a difference which parts are feminine and masculine to determine if the face is striking but female or if it is female but odd. A face like hers has some masculine features that are usually part of FFS and if she would get a surgery she would probably look more boring. But its because those parts that cannot be changed by FFS are female. If those parts in a woman would be masculine and then she would have parts that can be changed by FFS very female she would look rather female but had something odd to it - not striking but odd.
I am not sure where that difference comes from. I see a lot of women - on TV but moreso in reality, in the subway mostly - that have some masculine features but are no doubt female and it makes them interesting. But when I look at some of the FFS pictures, I see they have perfectly shaped foreheads and noses and chins and jaws - female prototypes "by the book" - but they still look overall a bit odd. So there is something that makes those women in the subway interesting but its different facial features than those that make those faces I mentioned after a FFS look a bit odd. I cannot give references here now, for obvious reasons. FFS is a highly emotional thing and even by mentioning that I beleive some people look odd after a FFS is probably going to draw hate towards me again, but it is my personal impression. Others probably would not see it that way and regard the same women after FFS to be a total success.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on December 28, 2016, 08:42:55 AM

The only feature that isn't addressed by the current battery of FFS procedures is shortening the midface.  See, even a lip lift doesn't change that.  Changing the midface takes shortening the upper jaw, which in turn would require adjusting the lower jaw to then appropriately fit.  This is called "double jaw surgery," I believe, and it's very intensive, generally only performed to correct severe problems with the alignment of the upper and lower teeth.  It isn't, in other words, considered a "cosmetic" procedure, and requires very specialized orthodontic training.  But there are women will long faces, and they still get read as female, because most of the other features aren't generally masculine in proportion.

    As FFS surgery gets more advanced, I wonder if Lefort 1 osteotomies will become more common place, at least amongst the best trained FFS surgeons. This is the one area I know I wish I could get done personally because I've pretty much reached the limits of the lip lift, while still having a longer midface. The double jaw surgery seems very invasive at first but it's been practiced successfully in South Korea now for cosmetic purposes. For those that aren't too sqeamish and want to know more, go to youtube and look up Lefort 1 osteotomy.

   Midface and lower face lifts also seem to be somewhat helpful for some of us with longer lower and middle faces. I think when such a large amount of bone is removed the muscle and tissue just doesn't conform so well. A second surgery focusing on removing and lifting the soft tissue, once the swelling from the bone work has gone down significantly, is probably a good option.

   Many of us trans ladies still get facial dsyphoria, or perhaps dsymorphia, even after ffs. It's rough, and this thread is somewhat helpful for giving hope that perhaps something can be done outside of the normal ffs "box" as you put it. However, it could be that we're pushing the limits of what is safe from a physical and even psychological standpoint. At some point it becomes an unhealthy obsession. I tend to see it as pushing the field forward

- Ruby

Thanks Anjaq for starting this discussion.

I have so far found these unconventional FFS procedures in my research after not being completely satisfied by my FFS( forehead, nos, chin) 8 months ago.

1. Wide head and forehead Narrowing : by reducing the temporal muscle and Bone

http://exploreplasticsurgery.com/technical-strategies-in-plastic-surgery-temporal-reduction-in-head-narrowing-surgery/

2. Back and top of head augmentation to create a feminine rounded skull not just the forehead

http://m.engbanobagi.com/m/filler/filler07.asp

3. Double jaw to change the height of the lower jaw, shorten the mid face.

4. Cheekbone reduction: while prominent cheekbones also if high on the face are very elegant and beautiful on cis woman, it doesn't translate the same sometimes on trans women depending on other facial features.


I also agree with you that the conventional FFS procedures rarely make ur faces like those of cis female. While they are very beneficial and can be very feminizing, still most times not enough to make our faces( without the aid of makeup and hair) as passable as those of cis women..lol.

Finally, I feel like Anna torvs face( similar to faces of other cis women with few masculine features) still reads undoubtedly female because the overall size and shape of the skll is very feminine with a few masculine features which makes them look exotic and interesting.

Whereas with as trans women it's the opposite. Conventional FFS procedures make the individual features feminine but don't impact the overall skull dimensions.

RubyAliza,

I am contemplating going to Korea for vline and double jaw surgery( as recommended by a few korean clinics for maximum feminization'of the lower face) but also scared of going outside of states in addition to how invasive double jaw seems.

Quote from: Ypsf09 on December 29, 2016, 02:20:55 AM
1. Wide head and forehead Narrowing : by reducing the temporal muscle and Bone

http://exploreplasticsurgery.com/technical-strategies-in-plastic-surgery-temporal-reduction-in-head-narrowing-surgery/

Wow, this seems pretty invasive, but it also seems like a beneficial thing to do if the head is wide. It would be great if FFS surgeons would incorporate this option as it says on the website it would be possible to do this surgery when a coronal incision already is done, as it is not uncommon with FFS after all - not sure though it a hairline incision would be enough to do this.

Quote4. Cheekbone reduction: while prominent cheekbones also if high on the face are very elegant and beautiful on cis woman, it doesn't translate the same sometimes on trans women depending on other facial features.

This I do not understand so much. From what I gather, the cheekbones are more of a non-gendered feature. They seem to look good when they are high in either male or female faces - so I am not sure why one would want to reduce them. I personally like mine and so far FFS surgeons were telling me that they perceive it as positive that I have them, so I do not think I would want to loose them. Apparently they also help set off a jaw that is a bit wider because of the proportions.

QuoteI also agree with you that the conventional FFS procedures rarely make ur faces like those of cis female. While they are very beneficial and can be very feminizing, still most times not enough to make our faces( without the aid of makeup and hair) as passable as those of cis women..lol.

That is pretty sad. After all this is what a lot of people would hope to get from FFS, right? I mean yes - for many the first priority is to "pass" - but once that is done, one desires more than that, right? I see a lot of women doing FFS who probably "passed" 99.99% before - and that probably did not change to 100% after the FFS either.
So maybe FFS is really more something for those that do not "pass" to get access to a normal life, while for the others who basically want to feminize the face to look cis , its a "goose chase", as I believe you say?

QuoteFinally, I feel like Anna torvs face( similar to faces of other cis women with few masculine features) still reads undoubtedly female because the overall size and shape of the skll is very feminine with a few masculine features which makes them look exotic and interesting.

That may well be. And sadly the skull size and shape are not really changeable to that degree, even the surgeries mentioned above can only do so much.

Another surgery I saw mentioned yesterday is the masseter muscle reduction, which probably also can contribute to a more narrow face.

QuoteI am contemplating going to Korea for vline and double jaw surgery( as recommended by a few korean clinics for maximum feminization'of the lower face) but also scared of going outside of states in addition to how invasive double jaw seems.

I would be more worried about the invasiveness of the procedure than about Korea. Korea is really nice, I liked it there when I was there for VFS. It was a long journey though, I think from the US it may be a little less. But for us it was almost 24 hours of continuous travel...

 Very interesting  I did not know of this reduction of the  temporalis muscle...

The more femme your face is to begin with, the better your results will be.  Most crucial, I think, is that midface ratio.  I've seen results  such that I wouldn't know I were speaking to someone trans if it wasn't for prior knowledge of that history. 

However, the rest of the world doesn't really think in terms of cis and trans.  They think in terms of men and women.  And in terms of how we get read, and how we read other people, there's a lot more than the face that's involved (though the face is undoubtedly quite important). 

Just as important, I think, is voice.  And it's not just the physiological aspects of voice -- pitch, resonance, intonation, etc -- but the words that actually come out of our mouths, and the demeanor in which they're spoken.  A great voice can stop a potential reading in its tracks, even reverse a clocking.  I've seen it happen. 

Furthermore, there are priorities and values that are implicit in what we choose to say.  A lot of that, I think, is only picked up and absorbed in non-disclosure social settings.  It gets more and more important the longer a relationship lasts, be they colleagues or friendships or something more.  Stories, interests, histories, emotional labor, the give and take of conversation, all of that is what matters when it comes to long-term gendering.  And all of that is a lot harder to codify than the morphology of the face, because so much of it shifts and changes with the ebb and flow of culture.

The truth of the matter is that there are cis women who get clocked too.  It's rare -- most women don't have this experience -- but it happens.  So what's the response to this?  How is it lived down?  Well, first and foremost, there's an unshakeable sense of self.  Someone else made a ludicrous mistake, it will be corrected, and then life goes on.  And sure, some might reevaluate how they present themselves, but others will not.  Regardless, it's not an incident that marks the end of the world.  That, I think, is the mindset of transsexing.  It's a matter of "being" in the world... which includes forgetting (emotionally forgetting, not intellectually forgetting) that you were ever anything else than who you are now.   

And that is something that facial surgery can really help with.  You see a new face in the mirror long enough, and the memory of the old one begins to fade.  So put away the old pictures.  Stop putting up "before and after" shots. 

No, better yet, burn them. 

Quote from: Sophia Sage on December 29, 2016, 05:03:44 PM
The more femme your face is to begin with, the better your results will be.  Most crucial, I think, is that midface ratio.  I've seen results  such that I wouldn't know I were speaking to someone trans if it wasn't for prior knowledge of that history. 

Well this is what I am not sure about - which factors do provide a good basis for a successful FFS. Obviously it is not so much how much brow bowwing one has and other FFS features, since they will be corrected anyways. It is probably more about these features like the mid face ratio. One might actually be more on the femme side with the brow and chin and jaw and nose, but get not much out of FFS if the shape of the face and the ratios are not great - while someone else may have great facial ratios but huge brow bossing - but once that is removed, the results of the FFS will be stunning. So I think it is these non-changeable things that more surgeons (and patients and FFS consultants) should look into when evaluating a face - not just the things that can be changed with the standard FFS procedures more or less - but also those things that cannot be changed. Especially igf those will be of more importance after a FFS.

QuoteHowever, the rest of the world doesn't really think in terms of cis and trans.  They think in terms of men and women.  And in terms of how we get read, and how we read other people, there's a lot more than the face that's involved (though the face is undoubtedly quite important). 

Just as important, I think, is voice.  And it's not just the physiological aspects of voice -- pitch, resonance, intonation, etc -- but the words that actually come out of our mouths, and the demeanor in which they're spoken.  A great voice can stop a potential reading in its tracks, even reverse a clocking.  I've seen it happen. 

Oh definitely it is not just the face - the whole impression - physical as wellas behavioural - takes part in the gender perception. For me, voice surgery was a key event as it allowed me to use my voice now in a way that actually gives me the confidence in many situations that previously would have me worried about "passing" to not be worried. I sometimes deliberately use my voice if I feel insecure because people may look at me a bit longer than I feel is normal - maybe because they pick up something in the face - because I feel that my voice is now an asset and not a stigma.

I also think that nondisclosure can be beneficial. I try to practice that if I can and it gives an experience that out-and-proud trans people will not get. Some things among women that are not talked about when there is even a slight doubt that someone is really female - and even if many women would not admit it, it still happens subconsciuosly.

Sadly I have not many social contacts and context, so I miss these experiences - Occasionally I have some of them, but its so rare.... Before I had the voice changed, I never really had it, because I always felt differently and the other women picked that up, I suppose.

QuoteThe truth of the matter is that there are cis women who get clocked too.  It's rare -- most women don't have this experience -- but it happens.  So what's the response to this?  How is it lived down?  Well, first and foremost, there's an unshakeable sense of self.  Someone else made a ludicrous mistake, it will be corrected, and then life goes on.  And sure, some might reevaluate how they present themselves, but others will not.

This happened to a very good friend of mine twice so far. She was furious about it and also had some insecurities later, asking me if I believe she is too masculine, if she walks too much like a construction worker, if it is a bad thing of her to only wear black jeans,... she almost made up excuses about her walk, that she has pain in the hips and thus she cannot walk differently. We went shopping one day and she tried without me knowing it to mimick my way of walking, which she describes as "you are shaking your ass". She said she could not do it. So I guess that whole getting clocked experience was really bad for her...

QuoteAnd that is something that facial surgery can really help with.  You see a new face in the mirror long enough, and the memory of the old one begins to fade.  So put away the old pictures.  Stop putting up "before and after" shots. 
No, better yet, burn them.

Thats an interesting argument for FFS indeed. Its similar to the before and after images of transition and hormones. I have not kept many of the old pictures from before that - my mom held on to some of them though. I barely remember that look. Of course now, after 18 years, it is difficult - my face now has become much more "mine" than it was years ago - I am "me" now, largely, so I kind of identify more with the face as well, sometimes I even like it, other times not so much at all. Its ambivalent, really.

I told my therapist today about disliking some things in my face - not going into too much detail as I have not spoken to her about any trans stuff (yet), so at least officially she doe sot know this about me. She said in her opinion some minor things are of course my choice, if I want them done, why not - things like hair transplants, straightening my nose, fixing that scar on my chin - but she also said that doing much would not be a good idea, as she basically believes my face is "striking" - which made me think of this quote;

Quote from: Sophia Sage on December 28, 2016, 02:36:33 PM
Looking at Torv again, she's got one masculine feature, a couple of androgynous ones, and the rest are firmly feminine.  This makes her striking. 
Most women, however, are not striking.  Better to look at ordinary women than TV stars. 

Apparently in her perception I have an interesting face, one that she thinks people would remember, as it is not too bland or normal to just forget. She spoke of this as if it was an advantage. I however am torn between this rather positive description and my own perception and drive to be "more normal" and less exceptional.

Something to think about: a small, thin, attractive cisgender actress can pull off a couple of traits considered "masculine" but still not be taken as a "man," though I don't find brow bossing attractive on women at all. However, those same traits on a tall, husky-voiced, assigned-male-at-birth trans woman with larger frame can be a dead giveaway that they were originally male bodied, especially to people who know what to look for. Most of us need long hair, a decent bust size, and a face well within the "female average" to counteract the numerous gender markers we cannot change that might lead others to see us as male such as broad shoulders, large hands, etc. They say it takes several female cues to cancel out the presence of one male one, and in my experience that has been so.

Quote from: AutumnLeaves on December 30, 2016, 09:49:17 AM
Something to think about: a small, thin, attractive cisgender actress can pull off a couple of traits considered "masculine" but still not be taken as a "man," though I don't find brow bossing attractive on women at all. However, those same traits on a tall, husky-voiced, assigned-male-at-birth trans woman with larger frame can be a dead giveaway that they were originally male bodied, especially to people who know what to look for. Most of us need long hair, a decent bust size, and a face well within the "female average" to counteract the numerous gender markers we cannot change that might lead others to see us as male such as broad shoulders, large hands, etc. They say it takes several female cues to cancel out the presence of one male one, and in my experience that has been so.

Very true.

Again, though, if the voice isn't husky, but strongly female, this goes a long long way to canceling out other markers.

It also goes the other way -- when I was standing in line to vote in our most recent election (ugh), a woman passed by with a very low voice.  At first I thought it was firmly a man's voice, and I had to double take when I turned and saw a short round woman. I mean, I had to study her -- but she was only 5 feet tall, with an ample bosom, a short face with no brow bossing whatsoever, no trace of beard, long hair, cherubic cheeks, and a delicate chin, despite carrying a lot of extra weight.  "Okay," I thought, "just a woman with a very deep voice."  But I had to really look to be sure. 

Whereas the woman behind me, who had a long chin and some brow bossing, but an unmistakably female voice, gave me no pause at all.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on December 30, 2016, 10:49:24 AM
It also goes the other way -- when I was standing in line to vote in our most recent election (ugh), a woman passed by with a very low voice.  At first I thought it was firmly a man's voice, and I had to double take when I turned and saw a short round woman. I mean, I had to study her -- but she was only 5 feet tall, with an ample bosom, a short face with no brow bossing whatsoever, no trace of beard, long hair, cherubic cheeks, and a delicate chin, despite carrying a lot of extra weight.  "Okay," I thought, "just a woman with a very deep voice."  But I had to really look to be sure. 

Whereas the woman behind me, who had a long chin and some brow bossing, but an unmistakably female voice, gave me no pause at all.

I think we are also more "trained" to see these things. I never would have spotted masculine features in the actress above, if it was not for me learning about them deliberately. I would have thought of her as a beautiful woman who has a recognizeable face. So I am not sure if we do not sometimes put too much value on the things we learned from the whole FFS crowd about how to determine the gender of a face. As I said, there are things outside these elements that often adre mentioned in FFS which contribute a lot to the facial gender and obviously there are many other things besides face that play a role, but since this is a FFS subforum, I was only considering this part for now. Clearly, the voice is as important. However it is something that often also does not get really great in trans women. Just as some parts of the face are not changeable, some parts of the voice are not changeable and can only be partly adressed with training and surgery. Some will manage to get a really good voice, but most never will - the voices then are not masculine, but female, but rarely feminine or 100% cis sounding - there are very often some elements that are not perfect. Just as with the face.

Just wondering but has any of you girls gotten the double-jaw surgery in Korea/ or maybe knows someone who did? After looking up all those results, i'm rly thinking that it would probably be better to do my jaw separately from my other FFS, since just "normal/FFS" jaw contouring probably won't do enough.. :/ And if any of you did get it, how much did it cost (i don't know if we're allowed to discuss princes on this forum, i hope i'm not doing anything wrong) and are those clinics in Korea, that do double-jaw surgery, trans friendy?
Thanks.

Do you have reliable photos of this jaw surgery results? I mean not random google images which sometimes seem to be heavily photoshopped when it comes to any plastic surgery result...

I looked more into the masseter muscle reduction - apparently this is done by Botox injections and it seems some women get good results, other only subtle changes - I wonder if it is worth a try? Also I heard that some surgeons can surgically remove some part of that muscle - how is this done and do all FFS surgeons have that option? Why was it never suggested to me in FFS consultations?