My husband of 27 years came out to me 18 years ago as MTF, and he has slowly done small things that make him happy - shaves his legs, has long hair, grooms his eyebrows (they're excessive even for a man), and he still identifies as male at this time.  He tried dressing early on, but said women's clothing does absolutely nothing for him.

He now wants to begin a partial transition - orchiectomy with low dose HRT, with a more (private) lifestyle changes.

We have had long, long talks, and decided our primary concern is to stay together in a manner that allows us both to stay true to ourselves. We've spent our lives together compromising to find a point that makes us happy enough when our interests diverge. It's what our marriage is based on. We have discussed what happens if he decides to go beyond what I can accept. Separation and divorce, which we really don't want. He said he could be miserable with his body and happy with me, or happy with his body and miserable without me. That's why we decided to find a middle ground that we can both live with.

I am female-phobic, way beyond just extreme heterosexuality. I do not touch other females voluntarily, ever. No hugs, no shaking hands (unless forced to in a business situation), it freaks me out to touch another woman's hand accidentally if she hands me something. I don't touch my mother (I can't remember a single time in my life when I voluntarily touched her), and since my daughter developed from a child to a young woman, I really don't touch her either. I enjoy a woman's presence - sharing feminine interests like long days shopping, sparkly things, etc, but I never develop anything beyond a mild friendship, the kind when you don't call to let them know when you move and forget their names within a year.

A big concern is what happens if his body becomes feminized enough to trigger my phobias. Each body reacts differently to hormones, and it could happen that even on a low dose his body could decide to over-react.

Also, we want to go through his counseling together - both joint and separate individual sessions with the counselor - we both assume there are times when s/he would want to talk to us without the other being there to affect what we say. The counselor would have to understand s/he is working with US, not him. I've heard some horror stories, either insisting on full reassignment, or insisting on keeping the spouse out of the actual transition process, and suggesting couples counseling elsewhere. How common is it to find a counselor willing to work with a couple where the spouse is actively involved in the decisions, rather than just a support partner?

For now wee're just struggling to find someone within a reasonable distance that will take our insurance. Word is that several of the local counselors who *claim* to be transgender therapists are mostly about conversion therapy. We're in a rural town three hours from the nearest big city that has decent services - and even that particular clinic doesn't take our insurance.

It sounds to me like you have a female spouse and you are attracted to men. Why not divorce? It seems way easier than trying to limit your partner, and you can still be friends.

Not likely that on a low dose he'll show too much difference at least to the eye. He may however become partially or fully impotent. How important is your sexual play? The other side is how frank you may find he'll be regarding his dosage.  I've seen many transitioning flat lying to their spouse about their dosages. So depending on what he is taking and how much...YMMV. His scent will change for sure and your hypersensitive aversion to females will probably be activated by that on a pheromonal level. I think it's an excellent idea to get a therapist.  Make sure they're a gender therapist and sort this stuff out or I see a rocky road ahead for you both. Best of luck, Lisa

Quote from: cej on December 27, 2016, 10:29:31 PM
It sounds to me like you have a female spouse and you are attracted to men. Why not divorce? It seems way easier than trying to limit your partner, and you can still be friends.

Limit my partner? Transition is not some sacred thing that affects only one person. It's a medical/emotional issue that affects the entire family. If he had cancer, I would be at the doctor with him as part of the discussion and decision making process for treatment, as I would hope he would be there for me. Families talk about these things and make decisions that are best for everyone. That's the way it works. If he were to develop bi-polar, I would be there with him at the psych to help adjust medications and how to deal with the issue in the family so that we could continue to be a family. This is no different from any other medical and emotional issue we have dealt with over the years, and we will face it together in the best way we both can.

Dear Jean welcome to Susan's,

Dealing with the life changes that a partner can go through is always a challenge. Those changes may be gender presentation, illness, financial but they can be managed. The aspect that seems of most concern is how you can overcome your 'female-phobia' (I actually hadn't heard of that before!) may I suggest a few sessions with a therapist? I'm not sure if your partner is seeing one, they probably should. But I think having a trained third party to help you both and individually through this may be very helpful.   

You may find a counsellor through the WPATH website (www.wpath.org) or through the psychology on line site. Many counsellors will do Skype sessions which would save the travel.

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Hi Jeanr

Welcome to Susans I hope we can be of some assistance.

I am no expert but have been married for 30 years and to me marriage is a two way street and it sounds like you have a really solid one. You have known for 18 years and stuck by him and he by you. I don't know how you will feel once the small physical changes occur, I think someone has mentioned smell, he could get some minor breast development along with a few other not so noticeable things. Skin, hair changes.

I agree that therapy sessions for both of you will be helpful and you may have to consider an online therapist if you have difficulties with location. It would be great if you could get some help for your phobia just for your own peace of mind.

I hope you can both work your way through this difficult time.

Liz

Quote from: Cindy on December 28, 2016, 12:49:26 AM
You may find a counsellor through the WPATH website (www.wpath.org) or through the psychology on line site. Many counsellors will do Skype sessions which would save the travel.

I learned today my husband doesn't want the WPATH model, he prefers ICATH. I don't really understand the difference, but he found an ICATH provider. Now we're just trying to figure out how to pay. We're on Medicaid, and apparently in our state you have to live in the same county as the provider, or one county away. Not just for this kind of services. Anything that requires multiple visits on a schedule. We're five counties away, so no coverage. There are no closer providers of any kind.

Quote from: JeanR on December 30, 2016, 01:22:56 AM
I learned today my husband doesn't want the WPATH model, he prefers ICATH. I don't really understand the difference, but he found an ICATH provider. Now we're just trying to figure out how to pay. We're on Medicaid, and apparently in our state you have to live in the same county as the provider, or one county away. Not just for this kind of services. Anything that requires multiple visits on a schedule. We're five counties away, so no coverage. There are no closer providers of any kind.

ICATH works well if all your providers want to play along. Basically, it's nothing more than you stating that as an adult, you have the right to do with yourself that you deem fit. It is not an organization,  simply an ideal that actualized folks agree upon. You may find it problematic with MediCal. It, of course is the way many that self fund choose to transition. The monied always have an easier go of most things.

WPATH does not require therapy or sign off of a psychologist for hrt. In my case, my physician asked if I'd been in therapy and my reply that yes albeit not recently and that I'd been socially transitioning for 18 years was all that was required for a referral to an endocrinologist who in turn prescribed estrogen with no fuss, only appropriate caution as to risk factors.

I agree with others that your aversion could be triggered by a more feminine husband and I suggest you look at my recent threads for my and others thoughts about relationship with just hrt vs GCS.

I would be more concerned for your aversion than his transition, the story of your daughter reminds me of the fact that in our modern culture post puberty daughters take some emotional harm from male parents who withdraw physical affection. It's troubling that your difficulty overrides relationship. I'm not trying to paint you as wrong, I avoid physical contact with most men for reasons I understand and can control in situations i know to be safe.

I do not and would never include my partner in my therapy and I don't think you're going to find a therapist who would agree to that. This doesn't mean I don't involve her or share what's appropriate with her but those are choices I make. Also ultimately i make my own medical choices, including transition. My therapist and indeed all of my medical team take their cues from me, I rely on them for objective advice but the choices are all mine.

I suggest you share references for your horror stories. I've never heard of such things in 20 years of being trans and suspect they're reported with some bias. If your husband wants you in the room for all dr appointments that's his choice however the boundaries needed between mental health counselor and patient preclude presence of a third party.

What your husband needs to work through in transition is not the same as what you need in couples or conjoint therapy and again, he may not even require therapy to obtain hrt.

Quote from: SadieBlake on December 30, 2016, 03:40:39 AM
WPATH does not require therapy or sign off of a psychologist for hrt. In my case, my physician asked if I'd been in therapy and my reply that yes albeit not recently and that I'd been socially transitioning for 18 years was all that was required for a referral to an endocrinologist who in turn prescribed estrogen with no fuss, only appropriate caution as to risk factors.

I agree with others that your aversion could be triggered by a more feminine husband and I suggest you look at my recent threads for my and others thoughts about relationship with just hrt vs GCS.

I would be more concerned for your aversion than his transition, the story of your daughter reminds me of the fact that in our modern culture post puberty daughters take some emotional harm from male parents who withdraw physical affection. It's troubling that your difficulty overrides relationship. I'm not trying to paint you as wrong, I avoid physical contact with most men for reasons I understand and can control in situations i know to be safe.

I do not and would never include my partner in my therapy and I don't think you're going to find a therapist who would agree to that. This doesn't mean I don't involve her or share what's appropriate with her but those are choices I make. Also ultimately i make my own medical choices, including transition. My therapist and indeed all of my medical team take their cues from me, I rely on them for objective advice but the choices are all mine.

I suggest you share references for your horror stories. I've never heard of such things in 20 years of being trans and suspect they're reported with some bias. If your husband wants you in the room for all dr appointments that's his choice however the boundaries needed between mental health counselor and patient preclude presence of a third party.

What your husband needs to work through in transition is not the same as what you need in couples or conjoint therapy and again, he may not even require therapy to obtain hrt.

I've done a lot of reading now, explaining the difference between ICATH and WPATH, I'm understanding the difference now. I think. One is more self-led, while the other is more counselor-guided.

For my aversion, we're hoping it's like the difference between putting the frog in the water cold and raising it to a boil slowly, or dumping the frog in hot water. We have talked about it exhaustively and we know that it is possible he will reach a point at which I cannot deal. We had long discussions that this is my own issue, a rejection of women, not a rejection of him. We have considered possibilities from still being together in 40 years to our relationship falling apart soon after the orch/HRT to do my woman-touching issues, and many, many possible points between.

He can't do HRT without an orchectomy. He has prior liver damage due to an illness and cannot take inhibitors. Since WPATH requires counseling for the orchectomy, it would be a while. I think this is the reason he wants to do ICATH. He has talked to me of wanting an orch for more than a decade, and it is is primary immediate desire. When I spoke of our choice to compromise, that's where he thinks he would be happy enough at this point. I'm working on accepting more feminine features. Some I can live with easily, others may take some effort, some may be impossible. We both know it's possible he doesn't stop there, but preserving our relationship he has agreed is important enough to possibly give up full transition.

As far as the counseling sessions go, we still plan to do some on our own, even if it's not actually part of ICATH, if we can find one we can reach and our insurance will pay for. I know he will need sessions by himself, but we also want sessions together and I will want my own sessions too. I'm not saying I would want to be there for every session. And yes, in the end it is his decision, but he is, at this point, granting me some degree of say. The way the insurance issue is going, it may be that the only thing either of us get for counseling is a couples counselor who is TG friendly.

(Added, he just found someone at an ICATH based provider. At least the first appointment is open to both spouses if the primary patient is okay with it. But his first appointment isn't until July.)

On top of everything else, this entire thing has brought a lot of other things up. When he told me of his decision to make the next step, 18 years after first revealing all this, it brought out a lot of things I haven't told him about myself, my feelings, needs and issues I am going through. Which brought out more from him. We know more of each other's inner thoughts and needs than we did a week ago, way beyond the transition issue. Additionally, we made realizations about our selves and each other that neither of had consciously known before. For example, I have always teased him about his testosterone peaks and troughs. They're obvious to anyone who knows him, and sometimes extreme (almost like 'roid rage), and for the first time I associated it with his TG-ness. I've come to view an orch as treatment for an actual medical problem that I can see, not unlike his need for emergency surgery this summer for other medical issues.

Oddly, our sex life has gone crazy, for two reasons. One of the things I revealed to him was that I am currently in a particular portion of perimenopause in which my hormones are nuts (I'm on HRT for treatment) and am going through what is known as the Sex Surge. I had been hiding it for weeks, embarrassed. Look it up if you haven't heart of it. Second, after two days of numbness and processing when he made his announcement, I decided I would enjoy him while I have him, whether it's six months or unto death. Our sex life dropped off some years ago, partly due to perimenopause, partly due to the stress of a former job I quit not long ago, and partly due to just being older and out of shape. Neither of us is a Greek god/goddess, LOL.

Quote from: JeanR on December 30, 2016, 02:35:31 PM

On top of everything else, this entire thing has brought a lot of other things up. When he told me of his decision to make the next step, 18 years after first revealing all this, it brought out a lot of things I haven't told him about myself, my feelings, needs and issues I am going through. Which brought out more from him. We know more of each other's inner thoughts and needs than we did a week ago, way beyond the transition issue. Additionally, we made realizations about our selves and each other that neither of had consciously known before. For example, I have always teased him about his testosterone peaks and troughs. They're obvious to anyone who knows him, and sometimes extreme (almost like 'roid rage), and for the first time I associated it with his TG-ness. I've come to view an orch as treatment for an actual medical problem that I can see, not unlike his need for emergency surgery this summer for other medical issues.

Hi Jeanr

It sounds to me like you are making progress which is fantastic. One of the things that I noticed is the paragraph above. This is similar to my wife and I and our level of intimacy. Once the T-bomb had hit the floor, we both had some time to talk, which lead to more talk, which lead to better understanding. I think I realised about a month after this just how much closer her and I were. Maybe it is just a natural progression of spending time talking  about all that intimate stuff.

I hope you can both get some peace with it soon

Hugs

Liz

JeanR it sounds like you're in the best possible place to be thinking about it and caring for each other. I think it's appropriate to include a partner as much as possible and I've also had the experience of a partner being so reactive as to stymie any possibility of progress.

Your husband might be ok on estradiol valerate injections. For me that gives complete suppression of testosterone and a dose that's a fraction of what would be 'normal'. That could be an approach that would likely be fine even with impaired liver function.

My gf and I have had similar conversations, when I told her I needed to start hrt she was distant and a bit angry and it was good for both of us to acknowledge feelings that had been repressed. I don't hold it against her that she's had a hard time adjusting and I think in fact we're going to do fine sexually. She recognizes that my masculine role is all but gone and I know her reservations about labelling herself as lesbian. I also think I know her responses well enough to think we will adapt and the key is she's willing to try.

In addition to everything else, we unearthed something we can't put a name to.

Since we really began working with my husband's needs, I became aware that my own view of myself is painfully similar to what I read on the TG discussion boards my husband directed me to for information and discussion. The only difference is that both of my personas have female parts. They're just not the same bodies, not at all.

When I look down at myself, when I look in the mirror, I don't see anything familiar to my mind. It's someone else You've seen the movies where two very differently shaped actors get switched bodies and . That's what I feel like. When I was going though puberty someone stole my body and left me with this, and my brain never quite connected with it.

In my mind, I am a petite, gracile (delicate frame) woman. Weight/fat isn't an issue. Ever since I hit puberty my body is large, square, big boned and as tall as an average man. Inside I am totally femme and straight. From the time I was about 12, 5'9" with a slim but square body with basically no female shape except for excessive breast size, it simply wasn't me. I never did get much of a female body shape until I got fat.

During my teen years I *briefly* dove head first into being as feminine as possible, but all the while I knew everyone saw me as mannish. Soon after I became terrified to wear anything feminine, especially feminine colors, because I was sure everyone was laughing at me, "Look at the big bull-dyke in pink frills, hahaha." I joined the military, and there I discovered my true distaste for even being around other women, but at the same time I started looking at petite, small women with interest. For a while I began to believe I might be bi-sexual, but after being around some whom I liked as friends, I discovered there was absolutely nothing sexual in it for me. I realized I was staring at them because I was one of them, inside. I was trying to figure out which one took my body.

I also found that I found the very touch of other women was distasteful, and I began to avoid it. It wasn't until recently I realized that I understood this has always been true, going all the way back to early childhood, I don't touch women, ever. Not even close female family members. It's not there all the time, I'm not aware of it until I get panicky when I think a woman is going to touch me. I steel myself for handshakes, and sometimes try to make sure my hands are encumbered so I don't have to offer insult. If a woman seems about to hug me, I try to avoid it as if I didn't notice, but if I can't get out of it without social insult, it makes me anxious for a long time after it's over.

I married my husband during the time I was trying to hide my desire to be feminine, and soon after switched gears. Instead of being terrified of being seen as ridiculous in femme clothing, I went whole-hog the other way. I stopped wearing pants, ever. I began wearing ONLY woman specific clothing - skirts, blouses, etc. My hair is always perfect in public, and I always wear heels (I walk mannish, and heels force me to walk like other women in heels) earrings, rings, etc. I don't even like wearing "unisex" t-shirts. I still avoided anything frilly or pink, etc, because I was still afraid someone would laugh at me for going that far.

When I started gaining weight due to a medical issue with my thyroid and other hormonal issues, I embraced it. The more weight I gained, the less I had to compare the body I had with the body my body my mind believes I have. I stopped caring about what happens to this body because *it's not mine.* I let myself almost double in weight because it was strangely comforting, I didn't have to compare what I had that was slim and trim, but not me, with this fat body that has no resemblance to anything at all in my mind.

I began dressing not only to cover my feelings of my body being almost a man in my mind, but also to match the petite little thing inside of me.  I began wearing rings, earrings, and obsessing with my hair to ultra-feminize myself as much as possible to try to cover what was underneath, and all the while I was terrified of people seeing through my disguise and seeing the large-boobed but mannish body underneath. I made VERY BAD clothing decisions for a long time, but finally figured out something that works after a work supervisor gently talked to me about it.

At one point during this time, around 1995-1996, I had a "glamour portrait" done, and I was way beyond thrilled at the results. I actually saw something in the portrait that I recognized as myself for the first time in my life. I almost recognized the woman in the portrait as me. My husband hated it. He said it wasn't me at all and it was a terrible picture. I tried to explain to him that this was the way I saw myself, but he didn't get it at all.

Recently I started a new regimen for thyroid, HRT for perimenopause, and also for another issue, and the combination has the weight melting off of me. I've dropped more than 30 pounds since early August, and my anxieties are returning. I KNOW I can never have the body my brain thinks I have, and going part way there without shrinking my bone and muscle structure to match my inner self is terrifying.

Once I began talking about it, my husband had a light bulb go off in his head, and he started seeing things that I have said and done in the past that suddenly make sense now. Not just the portrait, but other things.

What you are describing is Body  image disorder. It happens in CIS women and I am not very familiar with it but there are treatments. We have something similar where we tend to be the last one to see the changes in our face. It was about 4 years before I could see my face as feminine. I have had to accept the fact that I will always be 6'2" and that there are clothes I will never be able to wear without my shoulders looking off. When shoulder pads were in, I had it made because I would rip the shoulder pads out and a blouse would fit perfectly.

A therapist can help you see the beauty that is in you. Women have many different bodies and I am sure that your SO sees a beauty in you that you don't.

My wife has known for about forty years of my "Gender Issues", and history of transition experiments. Needless to say both times it clear to me I needed to settle for being a cross-dresser, which filled the need for my needed escapes from maleness. That worked fine for almost 30 years, sort of, as I slowly died inside.

About 7 years ago I dropped the T-Bomb on her. She went through a lot of feelings of betrayal. "If I've only known...." Yet, our deep love for eachother and a lot of trust rebuilding got us over the hump. A little like your spouse, for me it was a lot more of needing to figure out who I am vs what I was expected to be. I just couldn't keep all the corks underwater. I needed to take the Trans-Beast on for real.

Today I am doing the full transitional HRT regime still living and present primarily as male. My wife, if it's possible, is even more in love with the person I am today. I've grown towards the sort of person she always knew I had the potential to be.

The big down side of the personal growth for her, is the physical changes that have taken place. Years earlier I heard "I did not marry a woman". I haven't heard that in a long time. Today I get the occasional "I can't think of you as my husband. Not with breasts nicer then mine". Snuggling in bed, something we both very much enjoy, is sometimes difficult for her, starting with the nightgown and followed by the girls. Funny part is back before I had a B cup, she took full advantage of breast play being an instant turn on for me.

On a more medical note for your SO, I have to wonder about the medical necessity for an orchi due to previous liver damage in order to take E. As someone else noted injectable E is about the safest administration route. Oral E is where the biggest strain is from. Patches and pellets should also be less risk as well a more steady E level. If the orchi is to drop T levels.... well there are pills that can do that and are pretty much liver safe. Some take longer then others to take full effect. BTW - within reasonable doseages liver damage is rare. Doctors will certainly be monitoring the blood work to make sure nothing is going sour

I've been on/off low dose HRT several times over my life for the much needed Brain Reset. That worked wonders on helping be with the intense GD. After a few months things started taking a little hit below the belt which greatly conflicted with the Prime-Directive of being a normal(ish) guy. So off low dose I went.

Regarding the orchi/E issue, the orchi is to avoid the testosterone suppressors, which can cause liver damage, which he already has. The E is not his concern regarding his liver.

Spiro doesn't cause liver damage. In fact, it's used as therapy for those with liver disease. Which T Suppresor was he on? And if not aldactone,  why wouldn't he use it now?

Yes, as jentay said, Spiro doesn't harm liver afaik, oral estrogen definitely does and injected estradiol is the delivery method with least implications to liver.

He hasn't been on any HRT before, of any kind. This is what he believes based on his research over the past years. But it's also that the testes are the thing that absolutely bother him the most. He wants them gone yesterday. Anything else is something maybe for the future. He believes he might be happy just with getting rid of them, but is open to possibly wanting more in the future. At this point he doesn't want to dress, even if he transitions completely. He decided he doesn't really like wearing women's clothing, even though that's one of the things I can deal with best, and have even helped him in the past. He's tried it several times in various ways, and said that while he was hoping it would help, it doesn't do anything for him. I think he sees himself rather a masculine lesbian (bull-dyke for want of a better word) in a man's body, from the way he has described it. But he also wants the hair and some breasts, and possibly light makeup.

The chances of him getting better boobs than mine are slim and none. I am a G-cup. He might be generous, though, because he naturally has moobs.

Quote from: Dena on December 30, 2016, 10:21:48 PM
What you are describing is Body  image disorder. It happens in CIS women and I am not very familiar with it but there are treatments. We have something similar where we tend to be the last one to see the changes in our face. It was about 4 years before I could see my face as feminine. I have had to accept the fact that I will always be 6'2" and that there are clothes I will never be able to wear without my shoulders looking off. When shoulder pads were in, I had it made because I would rip the shoulder pads out and a blouse would fit perfectly.

A therapist can help you see the beauty that is in you. Women have many different bodies and I am sure that your SO sees a beauty in you that you don't.

I did some research and found that Body Image Disorder aka Body Dysphoria Disorder, is fairly specific to rejecting certain body parts or traits, and obsessively trying to change them in harmful manners, such as anorexia or repeated surgeries to make a nose perfect that already looked okay. It's about seeing things the way you think the are instead of the way they actually are. It's not about rejecting the whole package as being not a match with the inner self. I talked to my husband and asked what he sees. He confirms the things I see as more masculine than feminine about me definitely are masculine. He simply happened to be attracted to the parts of me that are mostly feminine - my legs - and he likes a large woman.

I've been mistaken for an MTF trans woman more than once, and at least once by a trans woman. This does NOT help me at all.