Quote from: anjaq on December 30, 2016, 04:47:32 PM
Do you have reliable photos of this jaw surgery results? I mean not random google images which sometimes seem to be heavily photoshopped when it comes to any plastic surgery result...

I looked more into the masseter muscle reduction - apparently this is done by Botox injections and it seems some women get good results, other only subtle changes - I wonder if it is worth a try? Also I heard that some surgeons can surgically remove some part of that muscle - how is this done and do all FFS surgeons have that option? Why was it never suggested to me in FFS consultations?

Don't worry, i'm not that naive to belive in the first few images that show up on google search :p... I checked some blogs where people talk about their experiance and few youtube videos of people who do pre and post-surgery vlogs. But all of those people were cis and didn't mention no price lol.

I had email consultations with a few Korean clinics using my pics/Jawline CT scans and quote was in the 20k to 25k US dollars range. This included double jaw, square jaw reduction, genioplasty and cheekbone reduction. Jenna Talackova had double jaw surgery at ID hospital and the results were dramatic. You can find her before double jaw pics online from her Miss Canada days and after surgery pics on her Instagram.

One of the 'nice' things about transitioning at an older age is that time does something interesting to our gender-cue features.  Older men and older women have fewer visible differences in things like the nose and cheeks.  The slackening skin on the neck helps hide the Adam's Apple in men.  (Just face forward and never ever raise your chin. LOL!)

With the removal of facial hair, and a gray wig, I look pretty much like any skinny 70 year old grandma [emoji70], maybe not as wrinkly yet, but I can see where I'm headed.  I look a LOT like my mother at close to age 70.  I saw that in the avatar shot, and it sort of freaked me out.

Oh, I'd still rather get FFS, but I won't need a hairline advance unless there's a way to bring it forward 10 inches or so.


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I would not call this "nice" so much , but I guess it is at least practical thinking.
Personally I prefer heving transitioned almost 20 years ago and still having my hair.

Actually, ageing is something that worries me more. While it is true that age in some people blurs gender differences a bit, it also tends to show more of the facial bone structure and I worry a bit about looking more masculine with age. This may actually be something other women also face, but for obvious reasons it is more traumatic for trans women who transitioned early enough to have had a time where they looked much more feminine. I would hate to have had that peak of looking femme already behind me and with more ageing "heading back" to looking more masculine again. No way.

Quote from: Ypsf09 on December 30, 2016, 09:40:13 PM
Jenna Talackova had double jaw surgery at ID hospital and the results were dramatic. You can find her before double jaw pics online from her Miss Canada days and after surgery pics on her Instagram.

I think this is the comparison picture for her?
I honestly do not exactly know why she had that surgery , she does not seem to have any jaw dysfunction or aesthetic impariment, but I guess she will see it differently


Did she have cheekbone reduction as well? It looks like it from the picture...

Yes this is her before after pic, though she is still very swollen in her after pic. You can see her Instagram of her current pics without any swelling.

I agree with you on that she didn't seem to have any jaw dysfunction or aesthetic impairment and although she looks more feminine now I sometimes think she looked more attractive before atleast as per western beauty standards.

It's not confirmed but it looks like she did have cheekbone reduction and  eyelid surgery too

I think Jenna wanted to look more asian.

Quote from: Ypsf09 on December 29, 2016, 02:20:55 AM
Thanks Anjaq for starting this discussion.

I have so far found these unconventional FFS procedures in my research after not being completely satisfied by my FFS( forehead, nos, chin) 8 months ago.

1. Wide head and forehead Narrowing : by reducing the temporal muscle and Bone

http://exploreplasticsurgery.com/technical-strategies-in-plastic-surgery-temporal-reduction-in-head-narrowing-surgery

Ahh, nope, I wouldn't do this as it appears to be a great way to weaken the skull. Also doesn't really achieve much for all the work involved..

Quote2. Back and top of head augmentation to create a feminine rounded skull not just the forehead

http://m.engbanobagi.com/m/filler/filler07.asp

Seriously? It's an advert for the product they use.. And, frankly, I don't think it would actually do much for anyone visually - do you notice people with flat spots in their skull?

Quote3. Double jaw to change the height of the lower jaw, shorten the mid face.

Highly invasive surgery with results that can be quite different from expectations - save it for a time serious reconstruction is needed.

Quote from: Ypsf09 on January 03, 2017, 01:56:17 AM
I agree with you on that she didn't seem to have any jaw dysfunction or aesthetic impairment and although she looks more feminine now I sometimes think she looked more attractive before atleast as per western beauty standards.

Yes. I think the beauty standards are quite variable. Thats what I kept running into with certain features of the face which are considered negative by some people, but more positive by others. Like high cheekbones which are considered beautiful in western standards, but ugly in asian beauty standards, apparently. I think Asian beauty standards are more aiming at being "child-like", while western standards are actually allowing more pronounced features or even a slight masculine elements in the face

Very interesting thread anja.

Personally, I think that today's general consensus of what is considered feminine is based upon youth, being small, delicate features. Almost child-like. Most men prefer a smaller female, so height is what certainly can work against us. That is what is the norm I guess. In other times, being fat was the norm. Some cultures praised the amazon, tall strong warrior woman. Who knows, maybe there comes a time when fashion changes and the amazon is in fashion again. Still, biology assumes that females display child-like features: large baby eyes, small nose, big lips. Make-up tries to emulate this. See Neoteny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny (the retention of some juvenile characteristics in adulthood)

With height comes a more bulkier bone structure, less delicate skull. The female skull is somewhat smaller. And we can't really change that, especially in adulthood. The skull keeps on growing after puberty into your mid 20's. So unless you stop T before the age of 24, it's a harder battle. I think the age of 24 is a huge turning point. It is where the body is fully grown and complete, just over it's peak, and slowly starts to decline after that age.

Sobering, yes.

If we are changing ourselves to be liked by MEN, if it is the aim then BULL->-bleeped-<-.
changing myself for career.
yes the asian wants like a child looking female, in asian culture they do not like high cheeks or slanted eyes.
take someone like Xeena , she is not small, big shoulders, not petite like.
she doesnot have big eyes, she is like more like overweight and warrior looking woman,
she wears makeup, she does her hair, and she is somehow i like a lot.
her look, how she is.
that kind i like to aim for, look.

Quote from: 2cherry on January 06, 2017, 08:50:45 AM
Personally, I think that today's general consensus of what is considered feminine is based upon youth, being small, delicate features. Almost child-like. Most men prefer a smaller female, so height is what certainly can work against us. That is what is the norm I guess. In other times, being fat was the norm.

Well - I am only partly interested in cultural norms. They vary, go out of fashion. I am more interested in real gender differences - biological differences.

QuoteWith height comes a more bulkier bone structure, less delicate skull. The female skull is somewhat smaller. And we can't really change that, especially in adulthood. The skull keeps on growing after puberty into your mid 20's. So unless you stop T before the age of 24, it's a harder battle. I think the age of 24 is a huge turning point. It is where the body is fully grown and complete, just over it's peak, and slowly starts to decline after that age.

Haha - well, it sadly is not a binary choice - having stopped T before age 24 I sadly did not do it more than a few months before that date, so I basically hit the button just about at the time it was already too late.

Regarding "Xena" (I assume she is meant with "Xeena") - The character is designed as basicaly a sort of Amazon warrior. She is in many ways a bit masculine and not surprisingly this ties in to several things: a) she is not so much liked by men - the show has not a huge male fan base b) quite a few trans women I know sort of tried to identify with her a lot because of her masculine traits but still her strength and obviously srong female aura and c) she is loved mostly by lesbian women. Apparently quit ea few lesbian women like women who are a bit less feminine and girly and a bit more "featured". Recently I was told not for the first time by a lesbian woman that I a probably would never have to stay alone at any lesbian party if I go there because I am like that as well. considered to be beautiful by them. Of course men see it a bit differently and I myself also do not like those harder features on me. But it seems to be a matter of beauty to a degree.

Never mind the cultural differences. I just want to alter my appearance enough so the image classifying network wired into the primitive regions of the brain in the amygdala and preoptic cortex classify my appearance as 'female'. Accepting folks who have never known me or seen me as anything but Michelle still misgender me occasionally when the primitive "I see a male " signal sneaks past their cognitive overrides.

If I can convince the mindless primitive in the hindbrain I am female I am golden.


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Quote from: Michelle_P on January 06, 2017, 06:47:39 PMNever mind the cultural differences. I just want to alter my appearance enough so the image classifying network wired into the primitive regions of the brain in the amygdala and preoptic cortex classify my appearance as 'female'. Accepting folks who have never known me or seen me as anything but Michelle still misgender me occasionally when the primitive "I see a male " signal sneaks past their cognitive overrides.

If I can convince the mindless primitive in the hindbrain I am female I am golden.

In general, yes. 

Don't forget, voice is a part of appearance.

So is narrative.  Even some "accepting" people will not be able to get that past the primitive hindbrain.  (Of course, there are others whose hindbrains will override narrative.  So it goes.)

In long-term relationships, if your light shines bright enough, the bulb cannot be seen.

I'm with Michelle, all I require is that people's lizard brain identify me as female without a lot of scrutiny or drawing of attention. I obviously have a great deal of dysphoria regarding my face, but I'm simply not sure FFS will rectify it. My quest is to align my face and body to my consciousness. I certainly don't want to end up a plastic surgery junkie. Ive spent my life musimg that those people have serious issues. I'd hate to wake up and find that I've become that person. I have a goal, that's to be gendered correctly. Once I achieve that, I'm moving on. I have no desire to be a transsexual woman, or a perfectly flawless beauty.  I just want to get what needs to be done to live my life without ridicule or curiosity and then simply and quietly fade into the crowd. Many a homely or manly woman lives an actualized existence with no qiestion of their female status,  If I can achieve that, my quest will have been successful.

Quote from: anjaq on January 06, 2017, 06:17:21 PM
Well - I am only partly interested in cultural norms. They vary, go out of fashion. I am more interested in real gender differences - biological differences.
Haha - well, it sadly is not a binary choice - having stopped T before age 24 I sadly did not do it more than a few months before that date, so I basically hit the button just about at the time it was already too late.

Regarding "Xena" (I assume she is meant with "Xeena") - The character is designed as basicaly a sort of Amazon warrior. She is in many ways a bit masculine and not surprisingly this ties in to several things: a) she is not so much liked by men - the show has not a huge male fan base b) quite a few trans women I know sort of tried to identify with her a lot because of her masculine traits but still her strength and obviously srong female aura and c) she is loved mostly by lesbian women. Apparently quit ea few lesbian women like women who are a bit less feminine and girly and a bit more "featured". Recently I was told not for the first time by a lesbian woman that I a probably would never have to stay alone at any lesbian party if I go there because I am like that as well. considered to be beautiful by them. Of course men see it a bit differently and I myself also do not like those harder features on me. But it seems to be a matter of beauty to a degree.

Michelle you are very wrong, My husband loves Xena and he is a man. iam not a lesbian and i like her. She is stunning, her eyes, her hair, her skin, her back. And my husband is a man, he likes her alot.
Anyhow Xena if she looses weight, she could be different too.
iam not a lesbian, iam not into men either. I have a partner, husband he loves me very much, and i have been with other men and women, i always see myself as a woman man, but that is inside of me. Iam born a woman, ALL WOMAN. But i have issues inside of me that i like males strength, it inspires me.
that's why i consider myself to have male personality many times.
For me surgery or those who go to extreme, are my kind of people.
when something is wanted and for reasons specific reasons not for other ppl or vanity but for career, then it is important, not to seek others, but to succeed, if the ticket for it.

Such statements as I made them about the Xena charater are not to be taken as general binary statements. Nothing is ever binary and there will always be some people for which such statements will not apply. I am talking about more statistical things there - So yes of course there will be some men who like Xena - but the percentage of men liking Xena as a fictious potential partner is much less than it is for lesbian women doing this.
And of course heterosexual women will also like her - but not in the same way. for them it is more like an idol, like something they want to be like.

Its like with girl bands. Women love girl bands, men often do not like them so much. Something like Spice Girls  or 4 non blondes. Guys may like it, maybe they like the music or find it cool - but if you go to a live show, the vast majority of the people there are women.

But that is totally besides the point except in one sense:

Will potential partners actually like us specifically for our masculine traits, specifically facial features? Will a more pronounced forehead or stronger chin actually be more attractive to a partner rather than if everything is smoothened out by FFS? For lesbian partners I suspect it may actually be so, from what I heard now. So maybe if a trans woman is lesbian (or bisexual), she may not need as much FFS to find herself attractive and to be attractive to other lesbian (or bisexual) women?

Actually my husband likes Xena how she looks like very much. He doesnot like skinny women at all, another thing, you say long jaw well there are women with long jaw and they rock it well and they are married and loved very much.
Another thing, ff surgery yes it can fix your face, BUT IT WONT FIND YOU LOVE.
Like i said my husband loves me like iam, but i want to change many things, looks and body too
for CAREER.

As for me, iam not a trans woman, i like the trans culture and i believe in their rights, i have woman, man personality, but i do dress like one hundred percent woman.

Anjaq changing your looks wont find u love, but if u do ff surgery for career and not for love just seeking ambition it will make you go places.

This is why i say when ppl ask me about ffs and why i do it, thee are many do it to find love ect, iam not at all this person who wants to be loved.
I want to SUCCEED, There is a difference and i know how body and looks counts, so yes i do surgery for this.

They say SUCCESS IS THE GREATEST REVENGE, I DO AGREE.
I do not seek to do this or that for to be loved, love doesnot concern me, i do change looks
for success, i do not intend to stay at home and be a home woman for any man.

Well - my point was, your husband is not all men. He is one man, he happens to like Xena, he has his own preferrences, he likes your "woman, man personality" as you say it. But other men may be different and for many men a strong or masculine or intelligent woman can incite the fear that he is in over his head, that he cannot keep up with that, so he is afraid.

Of course good looks are not always the best key to love. But for trans women it can be of importance to at least look 100% female and not trans or male - I think it makes it easier to find a partner. It is easier in life to just not be bothered by people thinking of oneself as trans and a partner also may have a harder time to always live with those issues.

What I do not understand is how one can do these surgeries for a carreer? There are two aspects of this I do not understand - one is , how a carreer would benefit from FFS or other surgeries? Unless one looks hideous and people are scared, I do not see any reason why 98% of the carreer options are not open to a woman who looks a bit more masculine or has a less than perfect face. There are of course some jobs and carreers where looks are important. Fashion industry, modelling, acting, ... so I guess I would assume that this is your field of carreer?
The other aspect I do not really understand about it is, why one would actually do massive invasive surgery for a job? I get it if people do the surgeries to be in tune with themselves, to not feel dysphoric anymore or to just be able to live a regular life without being regarded as transsexuals all the time. But a job is just a way to make money - there are other jobs as well and many trans people change jobs when transitioning ... I guess this makes only sense if one really loves that job more than anything.