by Monica Roberts
Wednesday, November 08, 2006

TransGriot

"Your former colleagues now see you as a confused soul who surrendered your membership in the fraternity, and worst of all is getting rid of the Almighty Phallus. You are nothing more than a traitorous queer, excuse the expression, to them and you will be severely punished for your 'crime'.

Get used to the fact that you will be looked upon as 'the enemy'. You are more dangerous to your former gender colleagues because you were once one of them and know their secrets. They are going to do whatever is necessary to ensure that you are NEVER their equal."

This kind of boo hoo me, even done in jest, but not really, is kinda old and
I feel untrue for sure in the case of women. ITs not even close to being
that bad to be a 51% of the population "minority" women.

Quote from: Keira on January 16, 2008, 01:03:00 PM

This kind of boo hoo me, even done in jest, but not really, is kinda old and
I feel untrue for sure in the case of women. ITs not even close to being
that bad to be a 51% of the population "minority" women.

I don't really understand what you're saying there. Could you clarify?

Its the whole women as oppressed minority thing, which
most women I know don't believe is true thse days.
If there is inequality still in some areas, its mostly the whiff
of times gone by that has is drifting away.

Quote from: Keira on January 28, 2008, 01:36:46 PM

Its the whole women as oppressed minority thing, which
most women I know don't believe is true thse days.
If there is inequality still in some areas, its mostly the whiff
of times gone by that has is drifting away.

Then I think the original post referred to transitioning as betrayal. It's not being a woman, or being seen as one that's the issue. It's having been seen as a man prior to it.

People don't understand why someone would want to change like this, permanently and irreversably. This is especially true if going to 'lower status', like choosing to become a woman is akin, socially, to 'demoting yourself'. In the eye of others, mainly men (some women think this too, which is why MtFs are accused of being invaders, they need to be attributed motives for transition that makes them gain something).

Those going with a FtM transition get less flack because they're going for a higher social status, again according to society. I know transitioning in itself has very little to do with social status, transitioning for that reason alone is almost 100% sure to bring about regrets, fast.

As many have said, you need to have lived it to understand, so it's beyond understanding of most people, though some can understand, sympathize, empathize and accept us for who we are, they certainly are not the majority if our transition status is revealed.

Schala, have you been reading "Whipping Girl"?

=K

The column is focused on blacks and other minorities being oppressed, with the message that transsexuals are a minority also, so the courts, legal system, politicians, and the good old boy system is out to get you or not care about you.

It had nothing to do with women at all. (Though I believe the current generation is a hell of a step back with regards to equality between men and women socially.)

In fact the only mention of female at all is in the synopsis that says the message is to white transwomen because they were born and lived as white men.

Quote from: Karen on January 29, 2008, 12:14:17 AM
Schala, have you been reading "Whipping Girl"?

=K

Yeah I have, but I wasn't stranger to the idea prior. One of the main reasons for buying the book was the arguments to counter anti-trans sentiments from separatist feminism. Or at least understand it.

I'm not too vocal on MWMF boards, a bit too 'hot' (getting flamed).

Quote from: Autumn on January 29, 2008, 07:45:23 AM
The column is focused on blacks and other minorities being oppressed, with the message that transsexuals are a minority also, so the courts, legal system, politicians, and the good old boy system is out to get you or not care about you.

It had nothing to do with women at all. (Though I believe the current generation is a hell of a step back with regards to equality between men and women socially.)

In fact the only mention of female at all is in the synopsis that says the message is to white transwomen because they were born and lived as white men.

That's what I understood from the article as well, black people deal with some of these problems everyday.

But I just want to say that just because someone is in a minority group doesn't necessarily mean they will support you.  I was once 'sir -ed' by an asian checkout girl, and might I add it was definitely done intentially.  I had been to the store several times and she wanted to embarrass me and of course, she succeeded!
I reported the Asian girl to the manager of the store, in a pleasant manner but I still let my feelings known.  The manager apologized profusely for the comment she made and said I was welcome in the store and it would never happen again.  Of course, I never went back!! 
It made me very sad though, because I know that she cops descrimination many times over, in Queensland, Asians are not welcome, so what made her pick on me I'll never know? 

It has nothing to do with minorities supporting minorities.

The author is writing with the (correct? incorrect?) assumption that a lot of white transwomen don't recognize the social demotion they're doing to themselves. "You ain't a white man no more, learn to live like we do."

While it's true it's also sort of racist and insulting. You have to be pretty blind to be a white transexual and not recognize the advantages that you lose when you get the chop. The fact that we're willing to do it shows how serious it is.

Our local Trans community decided to do an excercise in "Male Priviledges lost in transitioning M-F", and have had a ball with it.
Ya'll wanna play?
Here's some of mine:
1. Never getting to become a priest or a Rabbi.
2. Never hawking or spitting a lugie in public.
3. Never leaving the seat up again.
4. Never scratching anywhere you like in public.
5. Not caring, generally, what you look like.
6. Never standing to pee in the woods. (Unless you are DEAD sure nobody's looking and you're pre-op, or darn good at it with your vagina.
7. Never picking your nose in the car.
8. Never flirting with strange women.
9. Being paid insanely more for the same job as the woman next to you does, better than you do it.
10. Paying less for your dry cleaning than a woman has to.
Others?

That's what I was commenting on initially.
AND I DON'T AGREE I"M LOSING ANYTHING.
So, the article to me is nonsensical.

These days, the "advantage" of being
a white male are marginal and situational
at best. Maybe at the lowest socio-economic
levels is there still a significant different;
but I put that down more to ignorance than
anything else. At the recent university
graduate level, here in my neck of the wood,
there is probably a disadvantage rather
than an advantage to being male.

Quote from: Keira on January 29, 2008, 09:06:52 PM

That's what I was commenting on initially.
AND I DON'T AGREE I"M LOSING ANYTHING.
So, the article to me is nonsensical.

These days, the "advantage" of being
a white male are marginal and situational
at best. Maybe at the lowest socio-economic
levels is there still a significant different;
but I put that down more to ignorance than
anything else. At the recent university
graduate level, here in my neck of the wood,
there is probably a disadvantage rather
than an advantage to being male.

I didn't personality benefit that much either. Being seen as a boy means its ok to be picked on by both boys and girls, and being beaten to a pulp 'because you're a man' and other such nonsense. It means your expression is about 4-5x more restricted than a girl's, in western society.

Girls can cry, get angry, wear virtually anything clothes-wise, and although there are disadvantages to it, they are far outweighted by the advantages in my opinion.

Boys can wear white, black, blue, brown, green is borderline, pink is a no-no, pastels are like a big target painted on you unless you scare people away. Pants and nothing else, shirt and t-shirts mostly, sandals are borderline. Hair no longer than shoulder, and that's still shunned upon. Earrings are borderline (wether one or two). Jewelry depends on, also borderline and it mustn't 'look girly'. Nails short unless you use them (like for guitar picking, the thumb).

Boys can't cry in public or they lose status. Boys fighting is seen as normal and sometimes stopped, sometimes not. A guy hurting a girl will get the attention of a whole army on him if he's in public, the opposite rarely gets any attention (even if its rarer it happens). I don't mean mediatic attention, I mean attention like from people in the bar where it happens. The same people who would have jumped on the guy, won't even lift a finger to stop the girl.

I know girls don't get it that easy, and there's still issues with pay equality and social equality, I'm not denying that, but boys get a ban on anything not macho or cool, leading to either seriously repressed lives, or quirky people not fitting in because they don't conform.

I was non-conforming for the most, but I knew I couldn't live like that for long, I had no future (not that others can't live there, but I can't, its not me anyway). My pain was partly social, but it's not the whole story. It's things I learned over the years about double standards, unfairness. Like all guys being pegged as potential rapists and molesters (see daycare jobs, and the no co-ed arrangements for sleeping, even for relatives) and there's nothing you can do about it.

*blood boiling*
What I understood from this article is that it is written by a black transwoman who is gives her perspective as having been discriminated since birth for being black before transitioning and that she was well equipped for discrimination that was coming her way. 
Transitioning has probably just added to her problems, but she says she was prepared by already being a minority opposed to a white male who has in her words 'had white male privilege'.
Of course, she is not considering that this 'white male' was picked on at school for being sissy, excluded because he/she was different etc.  But maybe seen through her eyes and experiences, she still had to endure more than the picked on/excluded 'white male'!!!! 

I think sometimes in this world minorities do support minorities, because discrimination is discrimination!!  How is that so difficult for people to understand?  If you're not given a job/a home because you are - black, asian, trans, a woman, handicapped, how is that so different?  They all end up jobless/homeless!!!!!

And I would like to add that women are in the lowest socio-economic group in the world, that is in every single country on this bloody planet!!! What lala world do some of you live in?  Why can't anyone read an article and understand it??

Of course, having the 'white male privilege' sounds so appealing doesn't it?  Hell yeah!  If that is what you are, if your mind is in sync with your body, or you make the changes because your mind is already male. 

But some of you are kidding yourselves if you don't understand the plight of women.  Haven't you researched enough to understand what women have been fighting for, and believe me they are a long way off to achieving anywhere near the status of men (*ahem* white men)!!!  Most women end up with the short end of the stick in their lifetime, living with and having female friends makes you truly understand that!!!

*calmly stepping away from computer*

Quote from: buttercup on January 30, 2008, 04:45:12 PM
*blood boiling*
What I understood from this article is that it is written by a black transwoman who is gives her perspective as having been discriminated since birth for being black before transitioning and that she was well equipped for discrimination that was coming her way. 
Transitioning has probably just added to her problems, but she says she was prepared by already being a minority opposed to a white male who has in her words 'had white male privilege'.
Of course, she is not considering that this 'white male' was picked on at school for being sissy, excluded because he/she was different etc.  But maybe seen through her eyes and experiences, she still had to endure more than the picked on/excluded 'white male'!!!! 

I think sometimes in this world minorities do support minorities, because discrimination is discrimination!!  How is that so difficult for people to understand?  If you're not given a job/a home because you are - black, asian, trans, a woman, handicapped, how is that so different?  They all end up jobless/homeless!!!!!

And I would like to add that women are in the lowest socio-economic group in the world, that is in every single country on this bloody planet!!! What lala world do some of you live in?  Why can't anyone read an article and understand it??

Of course, having the 'white male privilege' sounds so appealing doesn't it?  Hell yeah!  If that is what you are, if your mind is in sync with your body, or you make the changes because your mind is already male. 

But some of you are kidding yourselves if you don't understand the plight of women.  Haven't you researched enough to understand what women have been fighting for, and believe me they are a long way off to achieving anywhere near the status of men (*ahem* white men)!!!  Most women end up with the short end of the stick in their lifetime, living with and having female friends makes you truly understand that!!!

*calmly stepping away from computer*

QuoteMost women end up with the short end of the stick in their lifetime

Materially wise, its very true. Socially, as in social-power, mostly true.

You, and I guess, most of society, is forgetting that repressing yourself can (and does) cause issues. Maybe there are some people who don't blink twice at the thought of being seen, dressing as, thinking like, robots and obeying blind double standards just because they exist, and even reinforce them. I would say a lot of guys like blue, black white and brown colors. But just like a lot of girls don't, a lot of guys don't. And what can they do about it? Become outcasts or weird in the eyes of others? Lose the right to be safe and not attacked randomly? Lose any considerations others might have had for them, and even being shunned and avoided because 'it might rub off on them'.

Expression-wise, girls and women do have it easier in western society (I don't know elsewhere, I live here - I won't go on hearsay). There are risks to expressing 'anything' but they are generally far lesser for women than they are for men, unless said men are ready to be killed for their ideals or preferences. Lesbians are generally frowned upon, also, I won't deny it, but the 'hatred' of the GLB community is generally directed at gay and bisexual men, it seems those who have the most against them (the religious right) fear anything about gay male sex, actually they imply gay relationships don't exist and its only gay sex.

I'm not blaming anyone for those differences. I can't blame the religious right letting lesbians get it a bit easier than gay guys, I certainly can't blame the lesbians or gay guys either.

I don't want the white male privilege. I'll probably always have white privilege, and  I'll probably also get cissexual privilege, but I certainly didn't before. I had male privilege, well some of it, though a lot of those male privileges were curbed by the absence of cissexual privilege (ie cissexism) and that is, long before transition.

I know what it is to be treated as an outcast. I'd rather be treated as someone who is not considered to be trash, a freak, a weirdo before people even listen to what I have to say, and that in addition to being seen as a woman. Let me tell you, being seen as a normal girl is over 1000x better for me than being seen as what I mentioned above. You don't even exist. It's not a lower status, it's a non-status. And I didn't have a community, or friends, or anything to help me cope, help me out, confide to.

Most girls I know are able to have friends, maybe not the best all the time, but people they can rely on, confide to, talk to.

Being seen as visibly deviant is being seen as sub-human. Being seen as a girl is being seen as human, just socially lesser considered than men, but still human (in western society anyway). Other types of discrimination will vary in intensity and such, I'm not asian or black or hispanic, so I can't speak for them. I do know blacks were once considered sub-human in america (in general by most everyone, just like trans is considered now). There still is discrimination, but it's rarely at that level of generality (people can still be racist, definitely, but not at the intensity and spread that cissexism exists currently, in Western society).

I'm still against racism, and I don't let ANY assumption I have about someone judge them. I wouldn't mind hanging with visibly trans friends, crossdressers, gays and lesbians who are seen as such, or any other minority. Why? Because I care who the person is deep inside. Nothing else matters.

And I will fight double-standards, unfairness and bigotry if I see it.

I'm both against the lower pay and social status of women, and against the fact a man is considered lesser if seen crying, or wearing (horror!) pink. Even if the latter isn't likely to affect me now and given my ambition, the former isn't something I'd personally care about (I'm not out to get rich).

I'm well-equipped to fight bigotry because I was seen as a social outcast and have never had true friends (I've had many acquaintances though, mainly post-transition). I know what being considered ->-bleeped-<- to others is like. I don't wish it on anyone.

I don't appreciate at all being said I live in LALA land because
I'm saying that when you compare women of the
exact same background and experience under 30, the
difference in social status is marginal in Canada.

Outside of western Europe, north America, women
are at the bottom of the tottem pole, but
its certainly not the case where I live.

Right now, 60% of doctors out of university are women,
which wasn't the case 20 years ago, in every field
right now there's a flood of female graduate.
Right now, they've got less experience, so of course
they'd have less salary than a male collegue who
graduated 15 years ago. But, in most professions
in this part of the world, women will dominate
outrageously in 20 years at all levels.

The only high level fields where women are still not
near majority or over it in Canada is engineering (about 35%).
and computer sciences in general (about the same percentage).

Even the overall picture where women have 25%
less salary is very misleading. If you correct
for number of hours worked, shift work, danger pay,
experience, part time work, etc. You end
up with a small difference, around 8%. Most of
this percentage is explained by low income
female job guettos like piecework manufacturing.
Tradionally, unskilled or low skill female work was paid
much less than unskilled or low skill male work; but
those jobs, male and female are
disapeering (going oversees).

In many businesses, unskilled male work is minimal wage, no tip, no advantages, 2 weeks vacations after a complete year, generally 37-40 hours a week on a regular schedule usually on a day shift being about 7 or 8 am to 3 or 4 pm.

I know cause I've worked 4 years out of my 5 spent working in such businesses. My last one was above minimal wage...guess I was lucky. The ratio was 95 to 100% male. All physical, straining work. It's amazing how I even survived without burning out, I'd get exhausted after every day of work.

I didn't pick this work, it was the only offers that would call back when I applied.

RE: giving up male privilege: girls, I was only kidding, trying to make fun...oh, and #11. No burping and farting in public, it ain't funny anymore!